EPA bans lead shot for depredation permits

[Pete Lester]

I wonder how long before the use of all lead shot is prohibited and what impact will it have on the prices of classic doubles.

http://www.shootingwire.com/story/231545

[Dave Suponski]

Unfortunately Pete I think it's only a matter of time.

[Linn Matthews]

I am afraid that this is the "foot in the door".

[Joe Wood]

Yikes!!!!

[Greg Baehman]

Better get them Repros while they're still affordable!

[Richard Flanders]

A total ban is not far off I fear. A few yrs back they banned it for all hunting for the entire north slope of Alaska, which is at least 25% of the state. Why? Because they knew that no one would notice... and no one did. And I'm sure the natives who are the only hunters of birds up there ignore the ban and could care less. After that they banned it for the entire kuskokwim/Yukon delta region... another 15-20% of the state. No advance notice, no comment period as is usual, nothing. Again, no one even knew they did it. It just showed up in the game regs the NEXT year. The depredation ban is the same thing. They know that sportsman will not stage riots in the streets, that they can get away with it. Eventually, a lead ban will be in effect for the vast majority of lands.. somehow, for some reason, and it won't be long after that when it's banned totally. We will not win this one.

[Dean Romig]

Where's the scientific data?? Where is the public input?? Where is the introduction of a bill that would mandate open public forums before anti-lead laws are passed?

Where is the outrage??

[E Robert Fabian]

I would be expressing our concerns to the organizations with the money " our money" like the NRA, SCI, and rest that we belong to.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

This is the beginning of the end, I give it maybe five years.....


DLH

[calvin humburg]

Yeah i'll bet theres some non-toxic shot sellers in the idots back pocket.

[Dean Romig]

Yet we continue to sell lead to China in record numbers of tons so that they can use it in products they sell to the U.S. and other markets all over the world. :cuss:

[Eric Grims]

Very scarry! I remember when the non-tox waterfowl rules went into effect years back. For a while you could buy a nice model12 long barrel full choke for around $75. Prices went back up after a while but methinks antique prices will tank. Sent the link on the article to all my club members.
This could prove to be a very difficult fight.

[Dean Romig]

We had a company come in and extract all the lead from our trap field last year, took about two weeks and you'd think we would have had to pay a huge $$ amount to get that nasty toxic stuff out of the ground.... They paid us $65,000 :shock: I wonder where the lead went??

[E Robert Fabian]

Pete you better start selling now before market gets flooded, I'll take that GHE skeet gun and becouse I'm a nice guy I'll give you what you have in it.

[Dave Purnell]

Just a thought. We constantly hear about prices being set by supply and demand. Wouldn't this increase the demand for non-toxic shot and bring the price down?

[Francis Morin]

I have complied with the Federal regs. on waterfowl. But this is stupidity to the tenth power. It supports my strong belief that the anti's have realized, since the Supreme court upheld, by a 5 to 4 margin, the Second Amendment, they may not get our firearms, so they'll go after the ammo.

On some remote farms where I shoot crows and feral pigeons, there is more potential toxic debris from old truck and tractor batteries, tires, electric motors, rusty metals and water run-off loaded with animal poop- and now these folks want us to use non-tox shot- Huummm- I'll do it for waterfowl, but take my chances on my private farms-- Next move, all our sporting clay, trap, skeet and live bird shooting venues- and these "do-gooders" are like the late Carrie Nation with her axe in hand and a 'thousand yard stare" in their beady little eyes. :cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss:

[Dean Romig]

Just a thought. We constantly hear about prices being set by supply and demand. Wouldn't this increase the demand for non-toxic shot and bring the price down?

Only if the supply were sufficient methinks.

[Harry Collins]

Boys and girls, I must admit that I have a bad habit of not only shooting old guns, but reading old books. Duck Shooting edited by Eugene Connett in 1947 had an article The Future of American Wildfowl by Fredrick Lincoln. He wrote in length about lead poisoning of wildfowl. I don't think we can blame this inconvenience on the anti's though I am convinced they applaud it.

Harry

[calvin humburg]

Oh and I bet the denist's are in on it to more steel to break teeth.

[Bruce Day]

Drat those dasturdly denists like Doc Van Blaricum and Doc Dick Dow!

Here's Doc Van, former president of the Kansas State Dental Association and appointed to the Kansas State Dental Board. I should have known he would be behind this.

[calvin humburg]

Hey Cowboy Bob I didn't mean no disrespect toward Denists and I hope you wern't trying to make me look bad cus I might have to hunt you down pull that hat down round your ears. ch

[David Hamilton]

These bans and all the other "regulations" that are being dumped quietly on us by the ton by Federal Agencies are administrative laws which are outside of the civil legal system. If someone break one of the rules one finds himself in front of an Administrative Judge who has been appointed and has an agenda to uphold Administrative Laws. In other words a kangaroo court where you are guilty because you are there. The Obama administration has put the creation of Administrative rules in hyper drive. If you want to really be scared look into this matter and you will discover that congress is really letting us down by not stopping these abuses of power. David

[Richard Flanders]

Spot on David. Current BATFE 'regs' fall in the same category. It's scary. They're all 70 yrs too late; back then they could have emigrated to Germany and joined G Soros in helping Adolph out.

[Jay Gardner]

How long ago was lead banned for waterfowl? I'm more concerned about the number of young people taking up shooting sports than I am with relatively obscure administrative regulations.

[David Hamilton]

Jay, You will be surprised when you can no longer shoot on public land? This is all part of the plan to prevent us from having and enjoying sport and guns. It is not a secret in Washington. Liberals in government employ are simply chipping away at us until they succeed. The only way to fight them is to make congress force the agencies of the government to stop making all these rules. David

[Destry L. Hoffard]

You've not been able to fire a lead shot cartridge on a lot of the public lands in Illinois for a long time. Pretty well since the ban on lead shot for waterfowl as most of them are waterfowl refuges. This new rule is a real threat as it takes off of those areas and puts it nationwide even in a limited way. It is the anti folks working through government agencies and supporting it all with their huge backup of funds. If you'd do a little research I'm sure you'd find that this ABC organization is the same as PETA or any of the other names for the folks who are fighting to take all this away from us.


Destry

[Peter Clark]

Sanity prevailed in Wyoming when I lived there in the mid-late 80's. In that State lead was allowed when hunting over dry land or moving water, i.e., rivers, since the liklihood of waterfowl ingesting lead was nil to non-existent. Eventually, however, the argument switched from waterfowl ingestion of lead to eagle ingestion of ducks carrying lead shot in their bodies. Even Wyoming lost that battle.
I have heard some conservation minded hunters defend this decision and similarly defend the banning of lead rifle bullets.
I never have nor will I ever support such nonsense. Destry is exactly right in that many who's objective is to ban hunting altogether are happy to use lead bans as a surrogate or at least a foot in the door.
Wouldn't it be grand to know the number of eagles and other top predators, as well as waterfowl, effected by now-banned pesticides as compared to lead. Do we support the continiued use of such products by importing many of our fruits and vegetables from other countries? Not much different than the evriros working to ban timber harvest on public lands while we continue to buy the same from our northern neighbors. It's called exporting your conscience and its maddening. We have the best technology in the world but some people prefer that we not use it.

[David Holes]

Maybe they will outlaw weed control products , as they are a major player in the loss of habitat. No habitat no birds.

[King Brown]

I take no pleasure in being contrary. My civil liberties credentials are as good as most. I'm liberal on some issues, conservative on others, so don't brand me. I have participated in the shooting sports at provincial, national and international levels. I have a modest income as freelancer and will work until I drop. Non-tox is no hardship for me waterfowling nor would it be for upland; my priorities are clear for my sport.

But that's me, what about others? The fact that some members regularly attend shoots and shows over the broad expanses of our countries and shoot more in a week than I would in years evinces the notion that the emotional and financial injury of looming lead bans in hunting and fishing will be accommodated in the same way we've muddled through in the past. Guys who can afford better than steel puzzle me.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

It's not that I'll really mind paying the extra money, I'm mostly a waterfowler and do it anyway. It's just the principle of the thing that bothers me. They're not out to do what they say they're doing. It's all means to an end and the end is doing away with the one thing we all care the most about.

Destry

[King Brown]

Fair enough, Destry. You've elevated the issue to another level. I long ago gave up notions of democracy and representation as we learned them in school. They never truly existed. They are words woven into our hypocrisy. Leaders at all levels choose from one side or the other, when both sides may be against the public interest (which is what we would choose if we saw clearly, thought rationally and acted disinterestedly). PETA wins today, NRA tomorrow, each looking after their powerful constituencies, and we wind up with a dissolving phantasmagoria, claptrap. I don't know why educated publics put up with it.

[Dean Romig]

I don't know why educated publics put up with it.

Apathy King, nothing more, nothing less. The notion that "someone else will do it" has long spelled the demise of worthy causes.

[Pete Lester]

I take no pleasure in being contrary. My civil liberties credentials are as good as most. I'm liberal on some issues, conservative on others, so don't brand me. I have participated in the shooting sports at provincial, national and international levels. I have a modest income as freelancer and will work until I drop. Non-tox is no hardship for me waterfowling nor would it be for upland; my priorities are clear for my sport.

But that's me, what about others? The fact that some members regularly attend shoots and shows over the broad expanses of our countries and shoot more in a week than I would in years evinces the notion that the emotional and financial injury of looming lead bans in hunting and fishing will be accommodated in the same way we've muddled through in the past. Guys who can afford better than steel puzzle me.

Well King last year I fired nearly a 1000 shotgun rounds while crow hunting, more than 600 2 7/8" 10ga. Waterfowling I am lucky if I shoot 150 rounds a year. If/when steel shot is mandated for the general hunting season what are my choices when it comes to crow shooting? Cheap steel rounds through an Remington 870 or about $3000 worth of Non-Toxic shot through the old doubles annually. You basing your point of view on the financial numbers represented by your low volume of shooting.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Off Topic - I gotta come out and go crow shooting with you boys sometime! I've got about 200 rounds of factory loaded black powder substitute rounds in heavy charges of 7 1/2 shot that could be burned up in such activity.

When the non-toxic law comes through it will be the death of vintage guns for anything like trap/skeet, crow shooting, or dove hunting as the cost of the ammo will be too high. That is unless you want to bite the bullet and shoot steel through them which all know I'm against. The vintage style waterfowlers won't be that much affected and the upland gunners like grouse shooters won't know the difference as their volume of shooting is fairly low.

But as I said, I still don't like it just on principle as it's a means to an end.


Destry

[King Brown]

It is what it is, J.B. For you it will be steel on crows whether you and the birds deserve the foul stuff or not.

Destry, I don't think a lead ban represents the end of our hunting, only the end of what we've known; we've seen the best of it.

The generation coming along doesn't share our interests in loads and guns. None hereabouts carries a double. They could name maybe one of five common classics.

Standing before a long rack of clickety-clacks last week, I asked Where are the doubles? "No one would buy a double even if I brought one in."

Shells: as look as they go boom.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

King,

I agree that most of the gunners these days have no interest in vintage guns. At pushing 41 years old, I'm pretty well the youngest I've met who shoots vintage guns literally for everything. The boys I shoot with in Canada and Michigan all want camoflage, plastic, alloy, whatever is newest must be better. They continually stand amazed and slightly bewildered at me and my arsenal of ancient firearms.

One of the boys was telling me he had his grandfathers old old duck gun but he wouldn't hunt with it because it was worth too much money. When I stopped at his house one day for a viewing, he produced a worn out Model 37 Ithaca with a broken stock. I didn't have the heart to tell him the gun I'd been shooting geese with that day was worth more than his truck.

That's the common mindset I find, can't use an old gun because they might be worth some money plus they wouldn't do the job like a new one anyway. Why would you use a double barrel? It doesn't shoot three times. Why would you shoot shells that are $3 each? I can buy these Winchester X-Pert steel shells for less than $1 each. And the list goes on.....

I'm not saying the lead ban is the end of hunting, but it changes things and not for the better. As I've said, just a means to an end. They could care less about the environment, it's just a left handed way to further the agenda of the anti-hunting and anti-gun crowd.


Destry

[Ed Blake]

FWIW on Trapshooters.com there have been several recent threads about shooting trap and other clay games with steel using real full chokes. A club in Naperville, Il. is steel shot only and members report no difference in performance and no damage to gun barrels using ordinary AA and Claybuster wads. Food for thought.