Early 28 Gauge Production

[Joel Hackett]

I was wondering what the earliest known 28 gauge produced by Parker?

I've seen it published in articles that Parker started production in 1903 but own a 28 gauge in the 108,3xx range from 1902 that doesn't show up in the serialization book.

[edgarspencer]

There was recently, a thread relating to early 28ga. guns.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23804&page=9

There are many lower (V, P) grade guns whose serial numbers do not appear in the 'book', due to, according to Bill Murphy, time constraints place on the team working in the basement at Remington.
I have an early 28, which did not show up anywhere, but on close examination of several in the immediate preceding, and following guns, The research director found it was overlooked do to a red mark partially obscuring the number. looking at the records it was determined that it, and the one before it, were a pair ordered at the same time by a well known NY sporting Goods store.
All of this trivia notwithstanding, 108xxx is at least 26 guns past the last one in the list in the above thread.

[James L. Martin]

I believe it's # 94373 with Damascus barrels

[Dean Romig]

94373 is the lowest serial number in the table of 28 gauge guns in the rear of Vol II of TPS.

However, it is shown as a Grade 5 with 28-inch Titanic Steel barrels.





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[Dave Noreen]

Anyone know the serial number of Chas. Askins' heavy 30-inch barrel, 2 7/8 inch chambered, 28-gauge he writes about in his 1910 book and December 1912 Field & Stream article "The Twenty-Eight Gauge Elf"?

The "standard" 28-gauge shell back in the day was a 2 1/2-inch shell with 1 3/4-drams of bulk smokeless powder (or 14-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 5/8 ounce of shot.

103581

The factory loaded 2 7/8-inch shell had a load of 2-drams of bulk smokeless powder (or 16-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 5/8 ounce of shot.

103582

Askins writes of hand loading 2 1/8 drams of Schultze and 3/4 ounce of shot in the 2 7/8-inch hull for his nearly 7- pound gun.

[charlie cleveland]

this is very interesting....a 2 7/8 inch shell and almost a 7 lb gun in 28 ga...this gun must have been a 1 frame gun possibly 2 frame...do we know the where abouts of this gun....charlie

[edgarspencer]

I've seen it published in articles that Parker started production in 1903 .

I have a 28 that was made in 1900, and I believe there was one made in 1899.
94373 was made in 1900 also.

[Dean Romig]

There was recently, a thread relating to early 28ga. guns.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23804&page=9

There are many lower (V, P) grade guns whose serial numbers do not appear in the 'book', due to, according to Bill Murphy, time constraints place on the team working in the basement at Remington.



In addition to the V and P grade guns that were omitted, the Grade 2 guns within these ranges were not included either.





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[Bill Murphy]

The "Book" is the serialization book, which includes only stock book entries. Some of the research for the article in question was taken from early order books, adding to the available research. Order book information is available one gun at a time from Chuck, our researcher, at $40.00 a gun, or from an order book itself.

[Phillip Carr]

The team that took on the project of coping the records I understand were under a time constraint. They did a great job of getting what we now have at their on expense. For this I know we are all grateful.
I wonder if sometime in the future PGCA could get permission to access the records again.
It’s my understanding that each page had to be placed on a copy machine and copied.
With today’s technology with high definition cell phone cameras. It might be possible for a handful of people to quickly copy these records.
This would allow each page to be fully copied. Also many of the records are hard to read and the high definition pictures could be enlarge and contrast enhanced to better interpret what was written.

[Chuck Bishop]

The problem isn't with the order book copies, it's with the stock book copies. They were copied on a Xerox copier that was 17" long. The stock books were at least 20" long so information on the right hand side of the ledger wasn't able to be copied. That plus the fact that sometimes the copier lid wasn't all the way down allowing light into the copier resulting in a dark unreadable copy on some Xerox copies.

I photographed all are paper copies with a digital camera so I don't use hard copies anymore. I can zoom in with incredible detail. All this could be resolved with a digital camera. Getting back in is the problem.

[Bill Murphy]

Actually, it wasn't the PGCA Research Committee who did not list some of the lower grades for the Serialization Book. The authors of The Parker Story, probably Commander Gunther, chose not to list the lower grades. It is my opinion that he just didn't have the time.

[Dean Romig]

Time... or possibly a lack of interest in recording any gun below Grade 3...?





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[Bill Murphy]

That could be the case. Commander Gunther is no longer with us, nor is Charlie Price. Bill Mullins could give us his opinion.

[Dean Romig]

From what I understand, and this is subject to correction, Cdr. Gunther spent the most time with transcribing and contracting keypunch personnel on what data went into the Serialization book. Is this correct? He is the one who made notations in red in the books he was examining.





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[Bill Murphy]

As I understand it, Commander Gunther copied the stock books single handed. I don't know about the red marks, never saw them. I was having lunch with Commander Gunther when he invited us to the parking lot at the Arms, and presented us with the stock book copies. No big discussion, just did it. What a guy.

[Jean Swanson]

I am not getting into the negotiations with the authors & the PGCA, that is a topic by itself. Bill is correct, in that Roy Gunther copied the STOCK books, basically, by himself, he also scanned the ORDER books for guns of a grade GREATER than D's and copied that info by hand; therefore, ignoring grades less than grade 3. A group of PGCA members obtained permission from then plant manager, Sam Renzey(sp) to enter Remington Arms in Ilion to copy the order books & IBM cards.
So, when the authors obtained permission from Remington to have the Parker Gun Identification & Serialization book published by Fjestad, the data base info that had been gathered by Gunther was used as a base for the publication.

That is why the LOWER grade guns (that are in the Fjestad book) of less than grade 3, from the ORDER books are missing .

I hope this finally answers the question !!!!

Allan



ially answers the question

[Bill Mullins]

What Bill and Allan said is correct. To add to that…
A bit of background…. When Cdr. Gunther copied the Order Books ( one at a time as Remington only allowed one book to be taken out of fear of being lost) he copied only grade 3 and above guns as the TPS authors assumed collectors were primarily interested in the higher grades. Parker did not record their guns by grade but by dollar amount.
For example:
D grade guns were $100 guns
C grade guns were $150 guns
B grade guns were $200 guns
A grade guns were $300 guns
AA grade guns were $400 guns
A1 Special guns were $500 or above guns

Occasionally when sales or the economy were slow Parker would lower the price of the guns to motivate potential buyers. For example a customer might be able to buy an A1S for $400.

When Gunther went through the Order Books he always “assumed” for example a $400 gun was an AA gun and etc.
The Order Books were kept only up to 1920. Thereafter gun records were maintained on IBM cards. These cards recorded the grade, serial number, gauge,
date of manufacture and to whom shipped…. which usually was the wholesaler or retailer.

As with the Stock and Order books several IBM cards were missing and or damaged beyond legibility.

When the late Charlie Price built a data base he statistically accounted for the missing records and guns and added accordingly based upon the books that were available.

Hope this helps and might clear up some confusion.

Bill 🇺🇸

[Bill Mullins]

PS…. Cdr. Gunther drove from Averill Park NY to Illion NY every day for one month to copy the records. He would copy all day and actually “burned” up one of Remington’s copy machines! They instructed him to bring his own copier in the future. Ron Kirby, then Executive Director of the PGCA had a son who sold copying machines and gracefully supplied one for the remaining coping necessary!
👍🤗

[Jean Swanson]

Bill

Thanks for the DETAILED data of the transaction, I did not want go into the details. I knew you would & thanks

Allan

[edgarspencer]

Are there any plans to ask Roundhill LLC for access to the books in an effort to fill in the blanks on guns below grade 3? This group of guns makes up a significant number of additions to new, entry level collectors, and could be a significant source of new research letter revenue.

[Chuck Bishop]

Edgar, there is no need to review the Order Books. This assumes all the Order Books were copied that Remington has and that the PGCA has all of these copies. What would be needed is someone to go through each Order Book order for guns grade 0,1, and 2 and see if the gun is in the Serialization Book (made from the Stock Books). If it's not found in the Serialization Book, it could be included in a new Serialization Book revised edition. I don't think the authors of TPS own that database but I could be wrong. It's not a job I would want.

[Dean Romig]

If I’m not mistaken Steve Fjestad owned it.






.

[edgarspencer]

Chuck, I should have been more specific. What I meant, was copy the stock books again, with a camera arrangement like you used to photograph the order books, in order to more completely cover the missing information on the grades below grade 3. As there are many consecutive pages, where those guns are included, it would be easy to eliminate those and concentrate on runs of serial numbers obviously missing. Perhaps I have over simplified what would be required.

[Jean Swanson]

Edgar

I think you have missed the point----the PGCA data base copied from the ORDER books already has ALL of the lower grade guns less than D's ( grade 3)in it. Not necessary to recopy the Order Books.

The authors of TPS data base is the missing link to ALL of the info in the STOCK books.

If you have questions, you have my home #---call me

Allan

[edgarspencer]

Are there any plans to ask Roundhill LLC for access to the books in an effort to fill in the blanks on guns below grade 3? This group of guns makes up a significant number of additions to new, entry level collectors, and could be a significant source of new research letter revenue.

Edgar, there is no need to review the Order Books.

Edgar

I think you have missed the point----the PGCA data base copied from the ORDER books already has ALL of the lower grade guns less than D's ( grade 3)in it. Not necessary to recopy the Order Books.

The authors of TPS data base is the missing link to ALL of the info in the STOCK books.

If you have questions, you have my home #---call me

Allan
Thank you Allan, but you and Chuck must have misread my post (see above.) I did NOT say anything about re-copying the order books. In my reply to Chuck, I reiterated that I was suggesting re-copying the STOCK books, and only those portions which previously omitted the data for guns below Grade 3.

[Bill Murphy]

As we all know, the stock book information which we don't have is of very little interest. All the interesting information, original owner in particular, is in the order books. Thanks, Allan and Bill, for your help. To give proper credit to Ron and his son, I believe three copy machines were donated. I may be wrong about that, however.

[Craig Haberthy]

In the book 'Best Guns' by Michael McIntosh (copyright edition 1999), on page 8 (5th paragraph) it says "... in 1905, Parker built the first hammerless doubles in America chambered in 28-gauge." Those actually started out in 2 1/2" cartridge size.

[Bill Murphy]

Craig, I don't know what you just said, but welcome. I will repeat my statement that information in the stock books about grades lower than Grade 3 is of very little interest to Parker collectors and would be a monumental task to copy. For those not familiar with the stock books, be aware that the gun you have in your hand gives you about all the information you will get from the stock books. Allan, please comment.

[Dean Romig]

Thank you Craig.





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[Dave Noreen]

In the book 'Best Guns' by Michael McIntosh (copyright edition 1999), on page 8 (5th paragraph) it says "... in 1905, Parker built the first hammerless doubles in America chambered in 28-gauge." Those actually started out in 2 1/2" cartridge size.

Just because it is in print doesn't make it true.

[Kevin McCormack]

I have a 28 that was made in 1900, and I believe there was one made in 1899.
94373 was made in 1900 also.

Craig wrote:

"In the book 'Best Guns' by Michael McIntosh (copyright edition 1999), on page 8 (5th paragraph) it says "... "in 1905, Parker built the first hammerless doubles in America chambered in 28-gauge."

As they say in PA Dutch country, "Edgar hat recht; Craig nichts besonders..." If missing 'book' dates & entries are interpolated correctly against SN chronology, the very first Parker 28 ga. built (a Damascus barrel Grade 5!) was built either in very late (e.g., November or December) 1899 or in January of 1900. Attempting to definitively document an exact production date absent the "missing books" is akin to predicting the movement of hurricanes in the Atlantic using the US vs. the European models.

[edgarspencer]

Attempting to definitively document an exact production date absent the "missing books" is akin to predicting the movement of hurricanes in the Atlantic using the US vs. the European models.
Wanna bring that up with a certain 5'2" woman with a Graduate degree in Applied Meteorology (Emphasis on Tropical Storms and Hurricanes)
In the book 'Best Guns' by Michael McIntosh (copyright edition 1999), on page 8 (5th paragraph) it says "... in 1905, Parker built the first hammerless doubles in America chambered in 28-gauge." Those actually started out in 2 1/2" cartridge size.

Darn that Research Director. I hope he doesn't have to pay back those vast sums collected on research letters for the over 100 28ga guns The Parker Story claims were made from 1900 to 1905.

[Chuck Bishop]

Edgar, I'll return your money in exchange for the gun:rotf:

[edgarspencer]

Nah, It's obviously a fake. I'll just scrap it.

[Joel Hackett]

I was wondering if the was any counts on how many 28 gauges were built on "O" frames ? I'd love to track down how many 0 Frame VH 28 gauges were made with 28" barrels.

I had read somewhere that when the 28-gauge was introduced; they were built on the 20-gauge 0-frames. Parker most likely took a bunch of 20-gauge guns that were languishing in inventory, fitted them with 28-gauge barrels and moved some inventory.

Later adding the 00-frame with a 15/16 inch firing pin spacing for a lighter weight 28-gauge then the early guns. Then in 1926, they introduced the 000-frame with a 13/16 inch spacing for the .410-bore.

[Joel Hackett]

I spoke with Larry Delgrego and when asked how many 0 frame VH 28 gauges where made he said it's either 14 or 19 total.

It wasn't clear if that number was for VH grades specifically and or specifically with 28" barrels.

He also mentioned it was an ongoing family debate weather the total number was 14 or 19, so it sounded like a topic well covered in his shop previously.

104726

[Reggie Bishop]

I think there is a lot more than 14 or 19 0 frame 28 gauges out there. I have seen more 0 frame 28 gauges than 00 frames. I don't have a ton of experience with 28 gauge Parkers, I have owned 4 and only one of the four was a 00 frame.

[Joel Hackett]

I think there is a lot more than 14 or 19 0 frame 28 gauges out there. I have seen more 0 frame 28 gauges than 00 frames. I don't have a ton of experience with 28 gauge Parkers, I have owned 4 and only one of the four was a 00 frame.

Thanks for the info, it sounds like he meant "0" frame 28 gauge VH's. Weather or not he was specifically noting ones with 28" inch barrels I'll have to follow up with him.

[James L. Martin]

Somewhere I saw 275 as the number of 0 frame 28ga guns ,can't remember where. 0 frame 28ga guns where made for approx. 12 years, that would be about 23 a year from 1900 to 1912. For what's it worth, I doubt anyone knows for sure.

[Dean Romig]

Beginning with the first serial number listed (158496 - all gauges and grades) from 1912 onward, I count 859 28-gauge Parkers made according to the 28 gauge table in the rear of Vol II of TPS. Certainly not all were on the 00-frame and we don’t and won’t know how many were on the 0-frame either but surely the 0-frame 28 gauge guns petered out, but there are a number of guns on both sides of 1912 that are not included in the data retrieved from the available factory records, antd that number is unknown but can be closely extrapolated from the known data.

Suffice to say that the 275 number might be correct if we extrapolate from the 253 28’s made to the beginning of 1912.





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[James L. Martin]

Dean I had my doubts about that number, what would be your guess.

[Chuck Bishop]

There is no way of knowing how many 0 frame 28ga. guns were made without physically looking at the guns and keeping a tally. I reviewed stock book # 75, which is the first stock book to list frame sizes. All the 28ga. guns listed were all 00 frames and all were in the 5 1/2 to 6.0 pounds except for 1 or 2 that had long barrels. Stock book 75 started at S/N 213778 July 1925.

But I have to ask, Why is it so important?

[Dean Romig]

I would be comfortable with the 275 number but only to the beginning of 1912. After that point we really have no idea how many 0-frame 28's were made up to the date in 1934 that Remington Arms bought the Parker Gun operation.

There are also a few two-gauge, two-barrel (20/28) guns that were most definitely built on the 0-frame.





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[James L. Martin]

Not counting 20/28 guns how many 0 frame 28ga guns have you seen that were built after say 1914. I myself have seen none.

[Dean Romig]

I haven’t been watching 0-frame/date of manufacture guns.





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[Bill Murphy]

I can say one thing that can't be disputed. Joel's question to Mr. Del Grego was misinterpreted, or the answer was misinterpreted. Del Grego's answer had nothing to do with the question that Joel says he asked. I just counted forty four 28" 28 gauge V grade guns just up to 145,000 serial number, about 1907. Obviously there are more than 14 or 17 total. Joel, look in the appendix of TPS to get some better information. You could have looked at earlier entries in the SB if you were interested in 28 gauges made earlier than your 1902 gun. The numbers are there. I would also recommend that James Martin also use the TPS appendix for more and more accurate information.

[Bill Murphy]

By the way, there is no use in copying or recopying the stock books. Commander Gunther already copied them and we have the copies. What has not been done is to transcribe all the serial numbers in the stock books into the serialization book database. The information is there for Chuck to copy, anytime he gets a few minutes.

[edgarspencer]

The information is there for Chuck to copy, anytime he gets a few minutes. If the President gets the federal minimum wage up to $15.00/Hr, Chuck can get a $15.00 raise.

[James L. Martin]

Bill ,I do look in TPS ,where are the 0 frame 28ga guns listed? That is what we were talking about.

[Chuck Bishop]

By the way, there is no use in copying or recopying the stock books. Commander Gunther already copied them and we have the copies. What has not been done is to transcribe all the serial numbers in the stock books into the serialization book database. The information is there for Chuck to copy, anytime he gets a few minutes.

Not true Bill. There is information that couldn't be copied at the right hand side of the stock books due to the limitation of the width of the copy machine. I would love to photograph all of the stock books, if I could.

[Chuck Bishop]

If the President gets the federal minimum wage up to $15.00/Hr, Chuck can get a $15.00 raise.

Bless you Edgar!

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck, obviously I was kidding. However, these guys, Edgar included, should realize that all the serial number and barrel length and other basic information from the stock books is in the PGCA collection and doesn't have to be copied. It is already there.

[Greg Baehman]

In regards to overall weight, with configurations being identical, will a typical 28ga. 0-frame Parker Bros. gun weigh more or less than a typical 20ga. built on a 0-frame?

[Joel Hackett]

My 1902 VH 28ga with 28” barrels weighed 5 lbs 15oz from Parker if that helps.

I’ll have to follow up with Mr. Delgrego. He was very adamant about there being only 14 or 19 of this configuration made being as an 0 frame VH 28 gauge with 28”barrels.

When I questioned it being such a low number, he mentioned their large collection of Parker factory books they have and that he and his grandfather used to go back and forth on the exact number of this configuration being 14 or 19. Either way, it’s not a big deal but will be interesting to talk to him more about it and try to get some clarity.

It’s just a field grade gun in an early configuration but it is interesting to hear that Parker “potentially” ……..didn’t make a lot in this specific spec.



On another note this 1904 VH 28 gauge on a 0 frame with 26” barrels sold for 13.6k including buyers premium this past December.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/84/1513/parker-brothers-28-gauge-vh-grade-double-barrel-shotgun

[edgarspencer]

The problem isn't with the order book copies, it's with the stock book copies. They were copied on a Xerox copier that was 17" long. The stock books were at least 20" long so information on the right hand side of the ledger wasn't able to be copied. That plus the fact that sometimes the copier lid wasn't all the way down allowing light into the copier resulting in a dark unreadable copy on some Xerox copies.

I photographed all are paper copies with a digital camera so I don't use hard copies anymore. I can zoom in with incredible detail. All this could be resolved with a digital camera. Getting back in is the problem.

Not true Bill. There is information that couldn't be copied at the right hand side of the stock books due to the limitation of the width of the copy machine. I would love to photograph all of the stock books, if I could.

Chuck, obviously I was kidding. However, these guys, Edgar included, should realize that all the serial number and barrel length and other basic information from the stock books is in the PGCA collection and doesn't have to be copied. It is already there.

Bill, I'm sensing you don't love me anymore:crying:
Maybe I should have said "Photographed" and not copied, because it was Chuck who pointed out that there IS (Despite your opinion to the contrary) valuable information which was not included in the 17" width of the copy machine, that could be added to a database if it could be accessed and PHOTOGRAPHED. You know, like with a camera?
I am not aware of any data in TPS which includes numbers of a particular frame. Maybe that might appear on the portion that didn't fit on the copier ?

[edgarspencer]

In regards to overall weight, with configurations being identical, will a typical 28ga. 0-frame Parker Bros. gun weigh more or less than a typical 20ga. built on a 0-frame?

Greg, I hope this is what you're after:
All 0 frames
28" 28ga. 5lbs 14oz
28" 20ga. 6lbs 1oz

24" 28ga. 5lbs 10oz
24" 20ga. 6lbs 3oz

The two 20ga. guns are DHE, the two 28ga. guns are VH, so ejector fore ends may be heavier than the two 28ga extractor guns. Also, the wood on the DHE may be marginally heavier due to density (?)

[Greg Baehman]

Yes Edgar, that was exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I'm a little bit surprised that the 28's are a little lighter than the 20's. When comparing weights of bi-gauge sets with the smaller bore barrels aboard usually make for a heavier gun. i.e. Parker Repro 20/16 & 28/.410 sets.

[Phillip Carr]

I own SN 173862. It is a DH 0 frame with 28” barrels. It was made in 1916.
I was recently invited to shoot pigeon and took this gun along with several other vintage doubles.
The Parker 28 performed very respectably with those 28” barrels. I missed some birds, but that was my fault. When I did my job I was tickled to see how 5/8 oz of 6’s and 7 1/2’s dropped these tough pigeons.
These is just something special about shooting passing birds with a 28 gauge.

I have attached a copy of the letter.

[James L. Martin]

Phillip, does the letter say the gun was ordered with 2 3/4 inch chambers? I can't make it out. If so that may be why it was made on a 0 frame.

[Phillip Carr]

Yes it was ordered with 2 3/4” chambers. I had not given any thought to the chamber length before.
I did some quick research on E H Hotchkiss. I always wondered why this gun was in such high condition. It appears Eli died only 6 months after the gun was shipped.

[Bill Murphy]

As was usually done with Parker guns, the gun was chambered 2 3/4", probably for 2 7/8" shells. I didn't know that 2 7/8" shells were made that early, but maybe they were. They became the standard shell for 28 gauge until after WW2.

[Randy G Roberts]

BHE 20 Ga-- 5 lbs 15.2 oz.
VHE 28 Ga-- 6 lbs 9.6 oz.

Both are configured the same:
30", Straight Grip, SFE, DT, O frame

[Greg Baehman]

BHE 20 Ga-- 5 lbs 15.2 oz.
VHE 28 Ga-- 6 lbs 9.6 oz.

Both are configured the same:
30", Straight Grip, SFE, DT, O frame

Yours are more inline of what I was expecting. The BHE 20 must feel wand-like.

[Bill Murphy]

Randy, does your 28 have a beavertail, a set of Briley tubes, and a vent rib? Maybe you have Colonel Askins' 28 gauge.

[Randy G Roberts]

Randy, does your 28 have a beavertail, a set of Briley tubes, and a vent rib? Maybe you have Colonel Askins' 28 gauge.

No it does not Bill.