The old days

[Aaron Beck]

How was this game played before the internet? Somewhat disenchanted with the internet gun bazaar, we are all looking for the same crumbs.
Did you write letters to other collectors? Call and visit random gun stores? Have the local gun store on retainer?
Actually advertise in parker pages? I am just curious, there have been some interesting stories posted of late.

[Reggie Bishop]

Gun shows and gun shops!

[Randy Davis]

Well, thirty years ago you subscribed to the "Gun List"...

RD

[Kevin McCormack]

Shotgun News and the want ads in American Rifleman.

[Bill Murphy]

Kevin is right. Gun List is a modern day item. There was plenty of gun collecting before Gun List. My collection of American Rifleman from the late twenties to WW2 shows rare collector Parkers in the classifieds that have not shown up on the radar again in the 63 years I have been collecting. Before Peter Johnson's book in 1960, there was virtually nothing in print to help a Parker collector. Before 1960, collectors worked off the seats of their pants, using their checkbooks to further their knowledge.

[Paul Ehlers]

Local newspaper classified ads were also valuable source back in the days before the internet. The classified sections in most newspapers would have large, dedicated sections just for gun sales.

This is where you would find the guns that came out of grandpa's closet or from under his bed.

[Craig Larter]

Shotgun News. Back in the early 70's I worked in downtown Rochester. I knew what day and time shotgun news was delivered to Worldwide News so I would pick up a copy hoping could get a jump on other collectors. You could also get the SN delivered by first class mail which was another way to get a jump but at the time I was too cheap to pay the additional charge. LOL

[Randy G Roberts]

Well, thirty years ago you subscribed to the "Gun List"...

RD

Yep, Gun List. I seem to recall paying up some extra bucks to get mine delivered express.

[Garry L Gordon]

I used the Gunlist, and I kept some of Chadrick’s ads for reference over time I’m sure that if I can find them, they will have drool stains. :rotf:

[Phillip Carr]

Our local AM radio station KAPR had a daily “Trading Post”. If I recall correctly this was a free announcement done at the same time every day. You could have them announce what you had to sell or wanted to buy. Guns were regularly sold. The would state what the gun was, who was selling, the price and the telephone number.

My father in the 60’s and early 70’s had a 2nd hand store. Lots of great guns came through his shop. My dad had a friend Mr Bigalow that collected guns. Because we didn’t have much money to spare Mr Bigalow ( as kids we thought he was rich) had a deal with my father. If guns came in and my father didn’t have the money, he was to make a deal and Bigalow would front the money. Bigalow then would have an opportunity to buy the guns he wanted with a small commission.

[Dean Romig]

I bought a few Parkers through ads in the Gun List but many others were word-of-mouth offers and transactions. But many of the top collectors have a network of folks with similar interests and a lot of guns never get advertised at all except by word-of-mouth between friends and acquaintances.





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[Bill Jolliff]

Yep, what Craig Larter said above.

Below is a copy of an ad from the September 1968 issue of Shotgun News.

I got the DE12 gauge Fox. Paid $800.00.

I should have grabbed that DHE 12 gauge with all the options for a $1000 and the 20 gauge single barrel trap for another $2K.

Could probably do some serious trading with you guys if I had.

I enjoyed that minty DE12 gauge Fox for many years. Sold it to Dana Tauber.

Yep, Shotgun News was the place to get nice guns.

https://i.imgur.com/GMnBn3G.jpg?2

[Bill Murphy]

OK, Bill Jollif got the DE Fox, but I got the 20 gauge 34" single trap. Small world. I filed a stack of Gun Lists for years, knowing the Chaddick ads and Tom Gibbons ads would be interesting reading. My wife made me trash them when we moved into the new house six years ago.

[tom tutwiler]

Used to be some shops around in central Pa (Shumans) and a couple on the eastern shore where nice doubles just seemed to show up from time to time. Internet for both bad and good changed everything. Everyone now thinks their Parker VH 12 gauge with 30" barrel covered in rust is worth 3K because they saw one for sale at that price on the WWW.

PS. I bought my first graded Fox in a small gunshop in Front Royal Va. Place has now been out of business for years. Used to also be some nice gunshops in Alexandria Va but no more. Tough to make a living when black guns are what 95 percent of the population wants.

[Aaron Beck]

Location seems like it mattered more, before when. While maine had great hunting traditions, it likely didnt have the economy to support many fancy guns, and even if there were, they have long since been sold by less well off relatives.
I suspect that many of the shooter/beater type guns im in the market for end up on the net for the very reason stated above. Most walk in custom would like to see plastic guns so the shop owner moves the old wood along to the broader audience.

[J. Scott Hanes]

Gun Shows and Shotgun News! In my view, it was way more fun chasing down an ad or a lead to find those treasures. You also had more time to make a deal. Today's electronic ads are great in that you don't have to be in New England or at least the NE United States to find them at local dealers. The downside is anyone with a computer can compete for one. Good for the sellers but not so much for the buyers.
Bought several on Shotgun News. Anyone remember the Rich Wengel sale?

[Dave Noreen]

In the fall of 1972, I was home on leave and went shooting at the old Seattle Skeet & Trap Club at Redmond. In the club house I thumbed through an issue of Shotgun News and found a 28-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun. First time I ever found one without a Cutts, and it was in Imperial Beach, California. Every morning I drove within a block or so of it on my way to North Island Naval Air Station from my apartment in Chula Vista. Went to look at the gun, and at H. Kinder's was the first time I ever saw two .410-bore Parkers in the same place. Got a signature loan from Navy Federal Credit Union and the 28-gauge Model 12 was mine. My credit wasn't up for the .410-bore Parkers!!

[Brian Dudley]

I have recently found some printed sale ads for some killer Parkers, Smiths and Lefever in a number of American Rifleman issues that I have.
From the 1940s…. I like the prices too.

[Randy G Roberts]

I have recently found some printed sale ads for some killer Parkers, Smiths and Lefever in a number of American Rifleman issues that I have.
From the 1940s…. I like the prices too.

I bet. Glance back through some of your old DGJ issues as well for some friendly pricing compared to today. Probably didn't seem friendly then but....

[Dean Romig]

I have a copy of a "Hunting & Fishing" or "National Sportsman" from the 1930's, when WHF was editor and publisher, advertising a DHE .410 for $100.
There is a possibility Foster was selling his own gun here. It was either Jonathan or Bill (his grandsons) who told me that Grandad sold his graded Parker .410 in order to help cover college tuition costs. I'll look around for the ad and post a picture here.






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[Phil Yearout]

I haven't been at this nearly as long as most of y'all; my first ever double gun came from a flea market - a 16ga Stevens 5100 which I still have. I can think of two shotguns and several rifles that I bought at gun shows, and two shotguns from gun shops. The rest all came from folks on the web sites, either by referral or from inquiries I placed, and usually from folks I knew or at least had seen on these sites a lot. I've never bought a gun off a classified or a web site, and I'm not sure I ever want to.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Ah, Gunlist The Good Old Days... Before the Evils of The Internet

Life was simpler, a touch slower, And most of all more personal

My best guns came from my true friend and Mentor, one Wiley Bower

A fine West Virginia ex pat

....Living in a small town in Northeast Ohio

He had a lifelong interest in Parkers and deep connections, likely going back

to the mid 1950’s

A true southern gentleman

A Dedicated grouse hunter, with an exceptional English Setter by his side

He lived the part.

It was a simpler time

I am better for knowing Wiley

Rest In Peace my friend

[CraigThompson]

I met an older gentleman about twenty years ago he used to frequent the shops in my area . He was big into period single shot rifles . His two fav cartridges were the 22 Hornet and R2 Lovell . Anyway he showed me five or six guns he’d bought out of the classified adds in the Washington Post . All were Ballard , Stevens or Sharps based guns and all came with pretty much hand made shooting kits (mold powder measure priming tool etc) . Granted this was stuff he bought in the 50’s and 60’s . Guy was a big time groundhog hunter , he and the Clark brother that ignited himself while welding on top a keg of black powder on the back porch of Clark Brothers Gunshop in Warrenton VA hunted groundhogs together from a specially rigged flat fender jeep .

[Bill Murphy]

Scott Hanes, I don't know about the Rich Wingle sale. Tell us about it. I knew Rich well, saw him at shows buying guns even after he was ill.

[John Allen]

Rich Wingle was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He owned several hundred fine double guns. He started liquidating them to all of his gun trading friends at really cheap prices. He showed up at the Louisville show and sold over 30 Parkers while confined to a wheelchair. I had sold him a few guns in previous years. He wheeled up to my table and sold me a 12 gauge DHE for $600. He got rid of most all of his guns before he passed.

[Bill Jolliff]

Rich Wingle made it to the NE Classic at Ernie's, maybe about 4 or 5 or 6 years ago?

He was in a wheelchair then and greeted his old friends.

A nice surprise seeing him but somewhat depressing seeing him wheelchair bound.

[Bill Murphy]

I last saw Rich at Allentown. He was in the final stages, but he wrote a check for a high dollar gun, can't remember what it was. He just couldn't quit.

[J. Scott Hanes]

Bill,
The ad I remember in SN was brought to my attention by Art Wheaton in about 1990, when he came in to the corporate offices in Wilmington, DE. I had arrived there in 1988 after working for Art in sales in Ohio from 1985-1987. Tim McCormack, the Remington Custom Shop manager was good friends with Rich Wingle, too, and we got Wingle's phone number from him.
I had my eye on a VHE Skeet 20 in the ad. There must have been 50 guns in the ad! We called on it from Art's office but it was already sold. There was also a 12 ga,26", SST, PG, Checkered butt Skeet gun in the ad which I purchased. Probably between $1500-2000 in those days. I hunted Grouse with that gun a few years, killing a few poplar trees by sawing them in half with that "chopper", as we dubbed it, and several grouse. I since sold it to another Remington man who still has it.
That 12 gauge, even with 26" barrels got to be a load in the woods after a few hours! Now I like the 20's much better!

[J. Scott Hanes]

Another source for Parkers, besides the great Herschel Chaddick, was Jaqua's. I have a 1992 paper list from them that is legal size paper and has 16 pages of mostly Trap guns but at least half in hunting and a couple pages of double guns. They mailed monthly in those days.

[Bill Jolliff]

I got a nice Parker from Bill Jaqua in 1974 at the OGCA show in Columbus.

CHE 12-gauge, 28" M and F, SN 198040 with a number 1 frame. Weighed 6 pounds 7 ounces.

[John Allen]

Back in the 70s and early 80s if you walked into the average gun show with a Parker you would draw a crowd. People would look at them almost in awe. Everyone thought they were extremely rare,and I guess at the time they were. Now there are over 400 listed on gunsinternational. I still love them but miss the excitement that Parkers and other fine doubles generated to the average shooter.

[Dean Romig]

When I was in my early teens in the early sixties the mention of Parker among shooting and hunting folks would cause everyone within earshot to hush up and listen. The name Parker was revered in the utmost... and they were thought to be "very expensive", but compared to what?





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[Tom Pellegrini]

I wrote a story about this in the Parker Pages. When I first moved to South Carolina I was shooting clays with a group of guys at my club. One gentleman was using a side by side. I was in awe of the fine craftmanship. As the months went on he offered to let me shoot the side by side he was using that day. It was a "C" Grade live bird gun I found out later. I told this gentleman that "you could put $500.00 in my hand and tell me to break a target and I would tell you to keep your money." He persisted and I decided to try it out. Once I took it into my hands it was an amazing feeling. I ended up shooting that gun very, very well to my amazement. That gentleman, a number of you on this forum know him, was David Dwyer. And as they say the rest is history. Thank you David.

[Aaron Beck]

Some of that hasnt gone away. I was in one of those black rifle type stores and the guy asked me if he could help find something. I replied, "not unless you have a bunch of Parkers hidden away". He laughed but turns out he had had some, recently. The reverence was there despite appearances.
In another store, the owner keeps all the doubles hidden away in the basement. Hard to get a read on whats for sale but I dont blame him exactly if you dont want people snapping your actions together all day while they wait for the background check to clear.

[Gary Laudermilch]

When I was a kid up to college days I frequented a part time gunsmith who had his shop n the basement of his house. It was a place of reverence for me as guns and hunting were all I thought about. One day he asked that I follow him to his attic. There were long racks of doubles, all Lefevers. There certainly were well over a hundred. I had no idea of his interest as most of the work he did in his shop was on 03 Springfields. I those days if it as not an O/U I had little interest. He passed away while I was in college. How I wish I could go back and relive those days.

[Robert Brooks]

Bruce Hunt Atlanta Outfitters had many high grade doubles. Bobby

[Bill Murphy]

I still have Bruce Hunt's list of faked up Parkers, some of them small bore A-1 Specials. There are serial numbers listed on all of them. I have never bothered to compare them with the serialization book. I remember Bruce at shows, huddled up with his buddies, in adjoining chairs, like a Mafia business meeting. The guns were wonderful, but unobtainable.

[Bill Murphy]

Those were the days.

[John Allen]

Bruce Hunt's salesmen at Atlanta Outfitters were Thad Scott and Don Schrum. If you walked in with money in your pocket, you would leave broke. Both of them went on to successful gun careers. I have seen a photo taken on the patio of the Rivera in Vegas at the Beinfeld show. Seated around the table were Bill Jaqua,Don Criswell,Hershel Chadick,Bruce Hunt, Don Schrum, Thad Scott,Mike Weatherby, and several other big time gun dealers. A real all star team.

[John Bastiani]

Bruce Hunt's salesmen at Atlanta Outfitters were Thad Scott and Don Schrum. If you walked in with money in your pocket, you would leave broke. Both of them went on to successful gun careers. I have seen a photo taken on the patio of the Rivera in Vegas at the Beinfeld show. Seated around the table were Bill Jaqua,Don Criswell,Hershel Chadick,Bruce Hunt, Don Schrum, Thad Scott,Mike Weatherby, and several other big time gun dealers. A real all star team.

You forgot to mention yourself. Through the years you have handled and sold some exceptional guns. I knew of all the other gentlemen you mention and dealt with Don Criswell on Winchester model 21's. Randy Shuman had the best selection of guns(all makes) for sale as anybody in the country. He has handled and sold more model 70's than anybody I know. Its nothing for him to have 300+ for sale at one time. Getting back to the original post- I think the gun list was probably the best source to finding good guns for sale. I also liked going to gun shows especially the Ohio Gun Collectors show when it was in Vets Memorial in Columbus,Ohio. It was one of the best shows in the country then and I can remember seeing a Parker VHE 410 in an A+F case(late in 1970's) that the dealer said was brand new. Im thinking it had a $6000.00 price tag. Being only around 21 and not being financially stable yet-I couldn't afford the gun but I told myself that one day I will have some nice Parkers in my collection.

[Robert Brooks]

I went to Atlanta show in late 60s and Bruce had a pair of consecutive numbered VHE 20 gauge skeet guns and two Fox XE 20s one had sst! Bobby

[Bill Murphy]

It was a sad day when Ohio Gun Collectors was thrown out of Columbus. Those of us who thrived on authentic German food missed the Columbus German restaurants. I got my taste for John Oberlies rifles at the old Columbus shows. Oberlies built the best rifles in the country in the 30s through the 50s. Too bad John Amber somehow never got wind of him. Through my Columbus contacts, I added fourteen Oberlies rifles to my collection.

[Bill Jolliff]

It was a sad day when Ohio Gun Collectors was thrown out of Columbus. Those of us who thrived on authentic German food missed the Columbus German restaurants.

Absolutely Bill. Great gun shows and good accommodations. Too bad the restaurant and motel owners didn't protest losing the gun show every 2 months. City politicians doing what they do best. I gotta be careful and not get political.

They moved to Cleveland and eventually Cleveland got it shut down but lost the lawsuit against the closure.

Sure would be nice if the OGCA moved back closer to upstate NY.

[John Allen]

The OGCA still do great shows in Wilmington. You should try to make a few. I try to set up for 3 or 4 a year. Very knowledgeable dealers and attendees and lots of good guns. Not as big as Columbus was but still worth a trip.

[John Allen]

The OGCA still do great shows in Wilmington. You should try to make a few. I try to set up for 3 or 4 a year. Very knowledgeable dealers and attendees and lots of good guns. Not as big as Columbus was but still worth a trip.

[John Bastiani]

It was a sad day when Ohio Gun Collectors was thrown out of Columbus. Those of us who thrived on authentic German food missed the Columbus German restaurants. I got my taste for John Oberlies rifles at the old Columbus shows. Oberlies built the best rifles in the country in the 30s through the 50s. Too bad John Amber somehow never got wind of him. Through my Columbus contacts, I added fourteen Oberlies rifles to my collection. We actually were never thrown out of Columbus but left on our own because of the handgun ordinance in the city of Columbus. It cost the restaurants and hotels a vast amount of money as this was a well attended event with people coming from all over the country. The ordinance also cost the city a NRA convention that would also have brought in a large amount of revenue. Wilmington is a nice show but its nothing even close to what the Columbus show was. Also- your not the only one who misses the food in German village. Schmidts Sausage Hous was one of my favorite restaurants. It was also home to the original Max and Ermas. Those giant hamburgers with a side of onion rings and a big mug of Draft beer was a treat for me.

[John Albano]

The DGJ also had an option to get your copy early. In addition Orvis mailed a listing of the guns the had for sale. They both had guns you would never see in Idaho.

[todd allen]

I remember snagging a couple of deals off of the DGJ ads. You have to be quick and decisive, because often, when you're mumbling and murmuring about the price, another buyer is doing the same thing.

[John Allen]

Since there were no photos on the old Shotgun News and Gun List, sellers had to write the description of the guns. This lead to some VERY creative writing. Having been on both sides of that I have to laugh at some of the things I read and wrote.

[Garry L Gordon]

Since there were no photos on the old Shotgun News and Gun List, sellers had to write the description of the guns. This lead to some VERY creative writing. Having been on both sides of that I have to laugh at some of the things I read and wrote.

John, you wrote good descriptions "back then," and caused us to ride to Nashville to purchase three guns from you (before the internet). BTW, I still have those guns and have enjoyed them greatly for many years.

[John Dallas]

In Columbus, dinner at the Claremont Motor Lodge was always a treat. Waitress "Perry" would take orders from 6-7 rowdy gun guys with no paper - just mental - and never made a mistake. It was a show. She always got tipped very heavily

[Bill Murphy]

Best ad writer in Shotgun News was Tom Gibbons. "Never a screw turned."

[John Allen]

There were some real characters in the business back then. I remember dealing with a gentleman from Connecticut who spoke very pompously. I would call him about a gun he advertised and he would answer "I shall ascend to the gunroom and find it". He would then describe the gun in very flowery over the top terms. I bought a couple from him just to see what the hell he was talking about. Great fellow but just weird. I can't remember his name.

[Garry L Gordon]

Best ad writer in Shotgun News was Tom Gibbons. "Never a screw turned."

Bill, I still have some of Tom's ads that I saved for reference, AND I bought some guns from Tom. I wish I'd known you back then for advice!:crying:

[Bill Jolliff]

I vividly remember one of the first gun shows I ever attended and that was on March 24, 1968, up here south of Rochester NY at Vince's 50 Acres Party House.

Near the door where you came in was a Parker DHE in 28 gauge priced at $1350.00. Holy Crap, you can almost buy a new car for that much money.

I did buy at that show, a late style 12 gauge Fox AE grade, SN 33743, for $225.00. I got it from Henry Grillo who was from the Utica area, who I got to know very well over the years.

In September of that year, 1968, I bought an early style 12 gauge A grade Fox, SN 7983, from Glen Appleby from Galeton, PA for $175.00. I still have that gun and have put around 20,000 rounds thru it in the last 10 years, mostly with my low recoil 1/2 ounce 12 gauge loads.

I had that AE12, SN 33743, a long time. Traded it, plus another 15 guns or so plus some $$ to Bill Jaqua on August 4th, 1976 for an exceptional 16 gauge Fox.

Boy O Boy, I wish I could do some of that again.

[Bill Murphy]

No dealer today would trade one of his guns for fifteen other guns. They might trade fifteen of their guns for one of yours.

[Dave Tercek]

Bill, I once sent Steve Barnett 19 nice shotguns in an even trade for one.

[todd allen]

Best ad writer in Shotgun News was Tom Gibbons. "Never a screw turned."
That reminds me of a gun writer who once wrote something like:
"That guy put the screw in screwdriver"
I have used that since.

[Steve Huffman]

This thread should be THE GOOD OLD DAYS !

[charlie cleveland]

there used to be trade day in riply miss..in was held on the first Monday of each monthand still is...you could buy ammofor a penny each shoot you gun in a ditch right in front of the court house....try doing that today...yep good old days...could buy a 1866 Winchester from 25 to 35 dollars....never seen a parker there....charlie

[todd allen]

I remember the ads in the back of the gun magazines back in the 60s where you could buy a German Luger or military surplus 1911 for 25-35 bucks.
I think "Extra Fine" condition cost you a couple extra bucks.

[Dean Romig]

I have a copy of a "Hunting & Fishing" or "National Sportsman" from the 1930's, when WHF was editor and publisher, advertising a DHE .410 for $100.
There is a possibility Foster was selling his own gun here. It was either Jonathan or Bill (his grandsons) who told me that Grandad sold his graded Parker .410 in order to help cover college tuition costs. I'll look around for the ad and post a picture here.




Okay, pursuant to this esrlier post of mine, here’s the ad mentioned above.


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[Garry L Gordon]

Okay, pursuant to this esrlier post of mine, here’s the ad mentioned above.


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Now there's a .410 I would buy!

[Larry Stauch]

Best ad writer in Shotgun News was Tom Gibbons. "Never a screw turned."

And always ended some of the ads on the best Foxes with "WHAT A FOX''!

You could clearly hear this through the pages of the ad. These were the days when an imagination was vivid and well developed. Memories...

[Larry Stauch]

Shotgun News and the want ads in American Rifleman.

This is a great thread. I haven't read why it went from Shotgun News to The Gun List mentioned yet. Aaron, Shotgun News was a large format, like 12" x 16" newspaper style reader. And so was The Gun List. Shotgun News was totally random as to the ads; no organization at all. There were ads for guns shows and gun stores mixed in amongst all of the classified ads for guns. When you got the periodical it was a test in the accuracy of speed reading, you couldn't just turn to the "P"s for Parker. And then came a technological leap. This new classified gun newspaper, The Gun List, came out was organized alphabetically. What an innovation! Well, a lot of people immediately jumped to this new fangled "organized" classified paper so you could immediately find those Parkers and Winchesters. And Shotgun News just started to fade to the background and eventually went away. In those days knowledge was power and the "old" guys that had been trading guns all their lives had all the knowledge. You had to gain their confidence to start getting those grains of knowledge because there were very few books that had any useful information. Most of the books that really expanded the collecting interests were penned the the late 80s and 90s. Folklore and campfire stories was the source of great information in those days and you can imagine there was some BS floating around out there as well. Not intentional, but there was little basis of fact. The good old days indeed. :)

[Dean Romig]

As a sidebar to address label in the picture of the Hunting & Fishing magazine cover I posted, Carroll Varney, 357 State St., Augusta, ME - I wonder if this is the same Varney family that started Varney's Sporting Clays just 10 miles to the south in Richmond, ME...?

The "New Hampshire Boys" and I have shot at Varney's a time or two.





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[Mike Koneski]

I remember in 1985 when I first got my FFL and Shotgun News was THE source. Guys would want to buy gun X, Y or Z for the cost listed in SN. They were not happy when I told them that was wholesale and if they wanted that price they had to get their own FFL.

I also remember as a kid going into Eagle Arms in Breinigsville, PA and seeing all the surplus rifles on the racks, hanging on peg boards or stuffed muzzle up in oak barrels. I vividly remember Italian Carcanos for $25 and beautiful Swedish Mausers with full-length tiger striped stocks for $30!! Eagle Arms is still at the same location but those prices are LONG GONE!!

[Dave Noreen]

While he was best known for the Parkers that passed through his shop, here is a great Fox ad from 1989 --

103880

Unfortunately, I only got one out of this ad.

[Reggie Bishop]

Two DE 20s in that ad and an XE!! Wonder where those are today?

[Dave Tercek]

Gun shows were a primary source of nice guns for me, before the internet. There seemed to be a show almost every weekend between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.
Gunlist was great in the beginning. The last few years I used Gunlist it seemed like I was always a day or two to late for the "bargains". I finally figured out that guys were getting them in overnight mail. By then the net was taking over.

[Dan Jurgens]

I recall while hunting pheasants on an Illinois pubic access hunting area at least 40 years ago when our party broke for a cigarette (those were the days) when another party joined us. My day was made when one of them asked “Is that a Parker?” referring to my rebarreled 5-digit serial number Parker. I have never forgotten that guy because few knew about them back then.

I still have it.