HARD GUN TO GRADE

[Austin W Hogan]

This early gun is very difficult to grade. This is the only four diamond fore end checking pattern that I have seen. Has anyone else seen one?

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Austin, as you know, it has one more point or diamond than the Grade 2 Parkers and the Grade 3 Parkers we know of have six points to the side if I'm correct. Could this be the forerunner to the popular Grade 3 forend patterns we commonly see? Do we know of earlier serial numbers which display the Grade 3 pattern we are accustomed to seeing?

[Chuck Bishop]

Any possibility that the extra 2 diamonds were added later? The points of the 2 large diamonds look like they would meet at the center of the bar latch which would be correct if it follows a 2 point diamond pattern as seen on later date forarms. It wouldn't be hard to add 2 smaller diamond patterns to the existing pattern. If it was done, it would have been long long ago.

[Austin W Hogan]

A good checkerer could have certainly married the diamonds but this just the beginning. Mark had a hard time trying to grade this gun from the order book material as shown in the letter. I think it becomes more difficult to grade after seeing it.
The plain twist barrel set is numbered with 2 on both barrel and fore end iron. The other set is damascus and not numbered. This set carries the 4 diamond checking, and has an insert in the hinge.
The frame has some engraving and some sculpturing around the fences; not much like a plain twist lowest grade gun. A later (1878) price list shows three grades of twist; was there briefly a grade 2 twist gun? The grain in the butt is much like grade 2 of the time.
Determining the grade of this particular gun might change its value from $0.10 a pound to 0.09 or 0.11. However grading early guns is a frequent question here. I think it is time for a Parker Pages series on grading.

Best, Austin

[Dave Suponski]

Austin,We know that many peculiar features are present on the early Parker guns almost as though the factory was searching for what would become standard. With King's arrival at the gun works things seamed to settle down.This gun looks to me to be a grade 2 gun. But it's only a guess.

[Dave Purnell]

Austin,
It seems by the letter that the Twist barrels were ordered in 1880, also explaining the "2" stamping. The Damascus barrels are the original set, listed in error in the books. I would guess a $100.00 dollar grade on up, by descriptions in the 1874 Reduced Price List. How would you describe the rest of the gun? Type of walnut, etc?

Another thing to try is look for a grade number stamped near the serial number, in the wood underneath the trigger guard. I realize that Parker Brothers did not have a grading number system in place in 1875, but they were working on it for the future. I used to own #3313, made in 1874, which had such a number stamped in the wood.

Dave

[Austin W Hogan]

I agree with everyone, but would like to draw this out a little. I have always set a value that the lowest grade damascus gun was a grade 2. This was supported by three diamonds in the fore end checking pattern, and a little figure on one side of the butt.
Could barrel 1 really be barrel three? Interesting especially since the two existing barrel sets still match weight.
The lock engraving seems to have been roll marked, then chased. Was roll mark engraving being considered for grade 1?
How would you assess the dominating factors on grade determination:

Barrel Steel?

Engraving?

Frame Sculpture?

Wood Quality?

Checking pattern?

A grade number found on any original part could nullify all these?

We need some good examples and opinions for Summer Parker Pages

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

The Forend checkering pattern for the grade 2 guns was already established prior to the production of Parker 4361. Therefor, I submit this gun (4361) was a higher grade. Here are a couple of pictures to substantiate my theory. This one is identified as F.9.R., B2505


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[Dean Romig]

As barrel steel can really only help in determining grades 0, 1, and 2 (higher grades in these earlier lifter guns were usually always Damascus with the possible exception of Whitworth late in the lifter range)(exceptions to this rule would be such rare examples as English Laminated as seen on certain lifters) I would rate frame sculpture and level of engraving very high at pos. 1 & 2 (or 2 & 1) followed closely by checkering pattern with wood quality (being very subjective) following the pack.

Agreed that a grade number would nullify all the above.

[Dean Romig]

Well now, here's some sand in the gears of this discussion. Just saw this one posted on gunbroker a minute ago.

This is Parker No. 1372 with the grade 2 forend checkering but with Laminated Steel barrels.

Too early for standardization???



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[Austin W Hogan]

I have seen some three and four digit s/n guns with no rib roll mark. I have a nice gun from Jim Parker's collection, in the 1000 range with much later twist barrels properly fitted. When I studied the early No 2 order book I found "fit new barrels no charge" on almost every page. This might be a reason to put another factor above barrel steel as factor 1. That bow tie fore end pattern seems to have been pretty persistent over the first 3000 plus guns, and obviously trumps the two diamond pattern.
Best, Austin

[Dave Purnell]

I tend to agree with Dave Suponski on guns of this early era. Many peculiar things happened before King came along with a game plan. I'm not so sure that any design feature seen in an earlier serial number really sets a precedent.

Here is the forearm from 3313 in 1874. And a early grade number referred to earlier?

Dave

[Dave Suponski]

I believe as Austin states that there are many things to consider when trying to grade one of these early guns. Just a few things to consider..1)Many of these guns were rebarreled so the original barrel steel may not be present for examination.2)Checkering patterns as we have observed were not standardized yet.3)As far as wood quality...Some of these early guns had fantastic wood on them even the lower grade guns.4) Using the order books for pricing is not a be all /end all either as many guns were sold at a discount.

So I would cast my vote for frame sculpting and engraving patterns being used to determine grade. Even at that these early guns are a real challenge to positively identify.

[Austin W Hogan]

With respect to grading, there is another cost step; gauge choice, wrist choice, and checking carried price surcharges that varied with time.

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

I'm enlightened now thanks to Austin's and Dave's contributions to this thread. I now have a better understanding of why there were "dollar grades" at all. It appears to be that there were few, if any, standards that could be considered earmarks of a "grade" for the simple reason that a buyer could have just about anything he wanted for an additional price. Such a system would seem to demand a grading system eventually but until that 'time' a Parker's level of embellishment (or options) was determined by what a buyer was willing to pay.... hence, the "Dollar Grade".

[Dave Purnell]

If one could have been a fly on the wall, the early Parker Gun Works would have been a fascinating young business endeavor, to see grow and evolve. Just imagine, it was a time in American history immediately following a devastating Civil War, in the midst of the Industrial Revolution, and at a time in gun history with the advent of the breechloading gun. There was immigration of skilled artisans from Europe, and vast expansion in the West.
Parker Brothers knew they wanted to produce a quality shotgun for the discerning sportsman; but where to go from there? They put together a team of skilled smiths, engravers, carvers, etc. This team probably ranged from highly skilled and experienced, to apprentice. They were given the freedom to experiment and perfect their art, along with all the innovations of the time.
Being a young business, Parker Brothers was also trying to grow and expand sales. A price list was circulated with general descriptions of "grades", based on amount of embellishment. When an order was received, a gun was assembled or chosen from production, to fit the price description. This is why, prior to 1875, no two guns are alike, even within the same general price description.

Dave

[Austin W Hogan]

The gun shown here is 3215; which is shown in both TPS and Serialization , identified as probably being "the highest grade offered at the time". Note the frame sculpture; the positive point is that the raised portion in the center of the breech bolster has some engeaving; the weak point is that the tear drop at the front carries no engraving.
The convincing point for me is that I can look at the "star" in the pattern and count six.

More on this later.

Best, Austin