410 Repro’s

[CraigThompson]

We’re the 410 Repro’s on an actual 000 frame or were they just fitted to 00 frames ?

[CraigThompson]

Never mind I just finished reading what seems to be known/assumed . 00 and 0000 . But no 000 .

[Bill Murphy]

Right. The only thing to add is that 00 frame .410 barrels are usually stamped 0000 on the rear lug, just like the actual 0000 barrels. Original Parker 000 barrels and Repro 0000 barrels share a pin spacing in common, but are different frames regardless of common pin spacing.

[Greg Baehman]

Like Bill said, the firing pin spacing of the 0000-frame Repro and the Parker Bros. 000-frame at 13/16" are identical, but the frames appear different. Below are pics of a 0000-frame Repro respectively followed by a 000-frame Parker at similar camera angles. Do you notice what's rare, odd and unusual with this 0000-frame .410 Repro?

[Bill Murphy]

The Repro is prettier.

[Greg Baehman]

The Repro is prettier.
Most would agree, however; there's a couple here that would disagree. Unfortunately it's not the answer the judges are looking for. Get the correct answer and there will be a follow-up bonus question -- unless one can come up with the whole shebang in one reply.

[Victor Wasylyna]

Left handed?

-Victor

[Greg Baehman]

Left handed?

-Victor
No Victor, I'm sorry that's not right. The correct answer is much more obvious.

[Phillip Carr]

It appears the outside diameter of the barrels at the breech end are smaller in diameter.

[Greg Baehman]

It appears the outside diameter of the barrels at the breech end are smaller in diameter.
0000-frame Repros do have barrels that appear more internal to the frame than 000-frame Parker Bros. guns, but the firing pin separation of both frames are the same. Thank you Phil, but it's not the correct answer.

[Phillip Carr]

Darn.
Just a fun fact. I have a Winchester 21 3 barrel set with 410, 28, and 20 gauge barrels and all have the same fire pin spacing. Lots of flexibility using barrel thickness and barrel spacing.

[Greg Baehman]

To those playing along...the right answer is right there in front of you, study all parts of the gun you see in the two pics of the 0000-frame Repro, put it all together...the correct answer is in the details and will become obvious to those that know their Repros!

[Phillip Carr]

The screw behind the trigger?

[Greg Baehman]

The screw behind the trigger?
Nope, unfortunately that's incorrect. The screw(s) you see there is commonly found on all Parkers equipped with Parker single selective triggers.

The question remains "What's rare, odd and unusual with this 0000-frame .410 Repro?" I'm attaching the same two pics below so you don't have to go back and forth a page...

[JAMES HALL]

The single bead on the breech balls.

[Greg Baehman]

The single bead on the breech balls.

Unfortunately, that too; is incorrect. You're kind of skirting onto the right track though as the single bead at the breech balls is a commonly found feature on this model of 0000-frame Repros.

[Robert Brooks]

The forend metal does not have the raised round piece at top . Bobby

[Greg Baehman]

The forend metal does not have the raised round piece at top . Bobby

Are you referring to the forend tip that is not shown in either pic of this 0000-frame Repro?

[Robert Brooks]

No the little round pieces at each side at very top of iron that blends in with what i call rails of barrels and forend wood has shape of rails.Bobby

[CraigThompson]

To me it looks like the bolsters do not stick out further than the sides of the frame . Where as on any original frame the bolsters protrude out further than even with the sides of the action body .

[Greg Baehman]

No the little round pieces at each side at very top of iron that blends in with what i call rails of barrels and forend wood has shape of rails.Bobby
Bobby, I have to say that you have some mighty good eyes, are incredibly astute and also aware, but unfortunately that is not what the judges are looking for as those beads -- what you call "the little round pieces at each side at very top of iron that blends in with what i call rails of barrels and forend wood has shape of rails." are absent on all 0000-frame Repros.

[Greg Baehman]

To me it looks like the bolsters do not stick out further than the sides of the frame . Where as on any original frame the bolsters protrude out further than even with the sides of the action body .
You are correct Craig, those bolsters on all 0000-frame Repros do not stick out further than the frame sides, but you're comparing them to a 000-frame original where the bolsters do protrude out beyond the sides of the frame. Your answer is not the answer the judges are looking for and is not what makes this 0000-frame Repro rare, odd and unusual.

[Robert Brooks]

Smaller Balls! Bobby

[Greg Baehman]

Smaller Balls!
Yep, the 0000-frames have small balls.

[Robert Brooks]

On top frame side panels look like where meet frame front edges are beveled but could be caused by reflections of light. Bobby

[Greg Baehman]

Bobby, I believe you and others are cueing in on too fine of details to come up with what's rare, odd and unusual with this particular 4/0-frame Repro.

If I can offer up a clue it would be to look at the big picture. That means consider the stock and its features, the overall frame details,-- including the breach balls, bead around the balls, engraving and barrels. Look at it as a whole. Therein lies the answer to the basic question and the follow-up question.

[Robert Brooks]

Top frame is engraved stock carved and fancy checkering.Top frame has Parker sst and bottom Miller.

[Bill Murphy]

I hope we're not going to be told that the A-1 Special stock carving doesn't belong on a BHE .410.

[Greg Baehman]

I hope we're not going to be told that the A-1 Special stock carving doesn't belong on a BHE .410.

No sir, you will not. But, I will tell you that I'm hoping someone comes forward and actually identifies what we're looking at.

[Donald F. Mills]

The scene engraving are the same as on a DHE not the grouse, woodcock etc. on a BHE repro.

[Greg Baehman]

The scene engraving are the same as on a DHE not the grouse, woodcock etc. on a BHE repro.
I think Don's response here is close enough to what the judges have been looking for that they award him with the semi-prestigious Bachelor of Repro-ology degree. Congratulations Don!

What you've actually been trying to identify is 1 of 3 known and previously identified Parker Reproduction BHE .410s built on a 0000-frame with DHE-style engraving, the toplever, however; is engraved in the BHE-style. How do we know it's a BHE-Grade? The single bead around the bolsters and being fitted with a Repro BHE-style checkered stock tell the tale.

Now for the bonus question: What identifying characteristics and other component does this particular gun have that is not de rigueur with standard Parker Reproduction BHE's? The correct respondent will be awarded a more prestigious advanced degree and be crowned Master of Repro-ology!

Hint: The bonus question can be correctly answered by looking at the top view of this gun.

[Frank Childrey]

I see three differences: the bolsters are smaller on the Repo; the trigger plate is shorter; on the Repo; the frame does not have the lightening cuts like the original.

[Stan Hillis]

It appears in that photo that the top lever has a more pronounced scallop on the right side than on the left. But that could be just because of the lighting, or camera angle.

[Donald F. Mills]

The barrels also seem to be DHE grade like as seen by the different engraving of the dolls head and lack of engraving between it and the rib matting. Might be also related to the engraving style mentioned earlier though.

[Greg Baehman]

I see three differences: the bolsters are smaller on the Repo; the trigger plate is shorter; on the Repo; the frame does not have the lightening cuts like the original.
Unfortunately Frank you're comparing apples to oranges. This is a Parker Reproduction 0000-frame that you're comparing to an original Parker. Incidently, the 4/0 frame Repro does have lightening cuts.

[Greg Baehman]

The barrels also seem to be DHE grade like as seen by the different engraving of the dolls head and lack of engraving between it and the rib matting. Might be also related to the engraving style mentioned earlier though.

Don's got it! The barrels are indeed Parker Reproduction DHE fitted to the BHE. Obviously they are true 0000-frame barrels fitted to the Repro 0000-frame and not the confusing factory stamped 0000-framed barrels intended for 00-frame Repros.

Three identifying characteristics of these Repro DHE barrels are:
1. The breech band of engraving is D-style (differs from the Repro B-style).
2. D-style engraving on the doll's head (differs from the B-style).
3. No wedge of engraving on both sides of the barrel. (B-grade Repros have the wedge).

For correctly identifying the bonus question the judges have awarded the prestigious advanced degree of Master of Repro-ology to Donald F. Mills. Congratulations Don!

Note: I would personally like to thank everyone that played along with this little exercise and hope you had fun and maybe even learned a thing or two about the guns. Muchas gracias! KNOW THE REPROS!

[Donald F. Mills]

Thanks Greg. It was fun to learn from the Doctor of repro-ology.

[Greg Baehman]

Thanks Greg. It was fun to learn from the Doctor of repro-ology.

Nah...but thanks, there are others here that can claim that.

[Frank Childrey]

Unfortunately Frank you're comparing apples to oranges. This is a Parker Reproduction 0000-frame that you're comparing to an original Parker. Incidently, the 4/0 frame Repro does have lightening cuts.

As usual, I didn't read the instructions . . . sorry about that.

[Dean Romig]

Greg, or others in the know, is the pin spacing truly that of 0000 measurement, e.g. 12/16” ?

I think I’ve read that it’s not and that the 0000 designation was strictly a sales gimmick.



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[Greg Baehman]

Logically speaking, you'd assume that the 0000-frame Repros should measure 12/16" between the firing pins. It has been mentioned in this forum a few times that it is thought the 4/0-frame Repros measure the same 13/16" spacing as the 000-frame orig. Parker Bros. frames, similar to why do the 1/2-frame Parkers at 1 1/16" measure the same as the 1-frames? No logical explanation, they just do. Sadly, I did not have a tape measure with me at the 2014 Antique Arms Show in Las Vegas to measure the pin spacing of the only 4/0 frame Repro I've ever held. Hopefully, someone that actually owns one of these uber fascinating 4/0-frame Repros will come forward with the definitive spacing -- until then, I guess we're just assuming.

[Bill Murphy]

I have measured them and seem to recall that the separation on a 0000 frame is 13/16, same as a 000.

[Mike Koneski]

And this is what makes PGCA great. Those of us that are shooters would look at the gun and handle the gun and shoot the gun and say "This'll break targets." The technical guru collector types amongst us see the minutae of the details and judge the gun on those little things. As a "bottom feeder" I find these posts very educational. Thanks Greg!!

[CraigThompson]

And this is what makes PGCA great. Those of us that are shooters would look at the gun and handle the gun and shoot the gun and say "This'll break targets." The technical guru collector types amongst us see the minutae of the details and judge the gun on those little things. As a "bottom feeder" I find these posts very educational. Thanks Greg!!

Kinda the reason I started this . I didn’t realize how few repro 410’s actually came to be . I was hoping I’d be able to find one to shoot .

[Mike Koneski]

That's why a repro .410 and 28g are on my radar next week. Now if they can have double triggers and extractors and would be a two barrel set, that would be even better. :corn: I'd take VH guns too but not at stupid prices.

[Bill Murphy]

Wait, Mike. A non ejector Repro at not crazy prices? Where are they? I'll sell you a VH, but the price will be crazy, like it was when I bought it. OK, crazy plus.

[Mike Koneski]

Wait, Mike. A non ejector Repro at not crazy prices? Where are they? I'll sell you a VH, but the price will be crazy, like it was when I bought it. OK, crazy plus.

Bill, can you please post some pics of that VH?

[Bill Murphy]

No, but I can post a price tag.

[CraigThompson]

No, but I can post a price tag.

No pigs in a poke deals thank you :rolleyes:

[Jean Swanson]

I see a difference in the distance from the rear of frame/wood to the rounding toward the hinge pin of approximately 9 % less ' which mean less metal in the frame, etc. !!! I certainly could be wrong . Just my observation.

Allan

[edgarspencer]

Logically speaking, you'd assume that the 0000-frame Repros should measure 12/16" between the firing pins. It has been mentioned in this forum a few times that it is thought the 4/0-frame Repros measure the same 13/16" spacing as the 000-frame orig. Parker Bros. frames, similar to why do the 1/2-frame Parkers at 1 1/16" measure the same as the 1-frames? No logical explanation, they just do.

Greg, I don't claim to be a logical person, but my wife tells me I'm lucky to have married one. She can't help me here, though.
If an '0' frame pin spacing is 1.00", and a '00' frame pin spacing is 15/16', then why is a '000' frame not 7/8" (14/16") ? If it was 7/8", then, logically, wouldn't a '0000' frame fall right into place at 13/16" ?

[David Noble]

Two things that really stick me in the eye when looking at this 0000 frame gun, especially the photo of the top lever, is that the top tang does not have the “bank note” style scroll engraving along its edges. And secondly the dolls head engraving is just crosshatch instead of scroll.

[Dean Romig]

I don’t recall ever seeing scroll engraving on a Repro doll’s head. This is Kathy’s little Skeet Repro. It’s not a .410 though.

Maybe the scroll engraving there was on the BHE’s and A1-S…




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[Greg Baehman]

Yes Dean, the engraving of the doll's head on BHE and A-1 Special Parker Reproductions is indeed different from the cross-hatches as seen on the DHE-grade.

The first pic below is a 20ga. Parker Reproduction BHE on a 0-frame, it is Parker Repro B-grade throughout. You'll notice the Repro B-grade style engraved top lever, doll's head and barrel wedges.

The second pic below is the same gun shown previously in this thread, a 4/0-frame BHE .410 with DHE-style engraving, a BHE-style engraved top lever, BHE wood and DHE barrels.

EDIT: For comparison purposes the middle pic was added to show an original Parker Bros. 12ga. BHE.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Greg.





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[Jean Swanson]

I checked on my statement (# 50) this am & I wa wrong, the pictured frames are the same size.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks Allan. Refer to post #42. McCormack and I had a display at Baltimore a few years ago where 00, 000, and 0000 frame .410s in grades up to A-1 Special as I recall, were displayed. However, I never measured the pin separation until Geoffroy bared a 0000 frame gun for me at Allentown years ago. I had a preproduction BHE .410 in my hands thanks to Repro rep Ray Stone, but I'm not entirely sure that gun had the same pin separation as a production 0000 frame, and anyhow, I didn't measure it. OK, the truth is in courtesy of Allan, 13/16" separation on the 0000 .410.