RST shortage, and other 2-1/2" shell sources?

[Benjamin Grover]

Has anyone any information regarding RST's shortage of shell components? I'm running severely low on 2.5" 16 gauge shells for my Parker VH and am starting to wonder when or if they'll be getting more of what I need back in stock. Does anyone here have other source recommendations for Parker appropriate 16 gauge shells? I do not reload.

[Milton C Starr]

Has anyone any information regarding RST's shortage of shell components? I'm running severely low on 2.5" 16 gauge shells for my Parker VH and am starting to wonder when or if they'll be getting more of what I need back in stock. Does anyone here have other source recommendations for Parker appropriate 16 gauge shells? I do not reload.

Wouldnt surprise me if its awhile on 16 gauge components id say it probably falls behind the 10 and 28 gauge. Reloading shotshells only requires the basic of tools most important probably being a scale. Might want to secure some 16 gauge hulls while you can though no telling when they will be back in stock. Another option is gauge adapters.

[Mills Morrison]

I sure hope it is not too much longer. I am not holding my breath either

[Kevin McCormack]

Stop wondering and go up on their website. They are out of stock of almost everything due to a critical shortage of components. Call them directly and tell them what you want - they'll let you know immediately if they have it or not. "Deal Direct", as they say.

[tom tutwiler]

My understanding is they can't get the type of powder required to load low pressure shells. That said a phone call to them would get the most up to date info.

[Dean Romig]

I don’t imagine it’s high on any powder manufacturer’s list to produce the kind of powder we need.






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[Bruce Day]

Parker appropriate 16 ga shells are made by Federal, Winchester , Remington , Fiocci , Herters and RST. I just bought two cases of recently made Winchester 1 oz loads.


On another note , I just ordered and received a case of Remington STS 12 ga and a case of Federal 12ga paper hull loads.

[Bill Murphy]

2 1/2 dram equivalent, 1 ounce, 1200 fps 16 gauge loads, as Bruce Day says, are appropriate for fluid steel Parkers. They are hard to find these days, but not as hard to find as RST.

[Bruce Day]

It is unnecessary to limit cartridge selection to 2 1/2 “ expanded shell length. We have been through that concept many times here , explained the insignificant pressure increase and real cartridge lengths. A search of previous comments here will show likely hundreds of explanations.

I use these commercially available 16 ga cartridges in a variety of guns ranging from 1880’s hammer Parkers to late Parkers , Lefevers and Brownings, Damascus , Twist and fluid steel, grades P through A .

[Mills Morrison]

I bought most of a case of 1 oz Winchester 16's recently. The recoil is a little stiff but they work

[Milton C Starr]

The 1oz Winchester loads are pretty easy to find online they are currently around $150/case, I am seeing them in #6 and #8 shot.

[Kevin McCormack]

The "good Samaritans" at our last local gun show were offering 16 ga. Remington 1 oz. Game Loads for $225 a flat (10 boxes) mostly in #6 shot.

[Dean Romig]

“Good Samaritans” = opportunists.





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[John Allen]

Remington dove and quail 16 gauge 1oz loads actually measure 21/4" unfired and 21/2" fired. I have shot them in damascus and fluid steel guns. Perfectly safe and you can find them at Walmart for $7.79 per box.

[Garry L Gordon]

Alas, there are no shotgun shells of any kind at our local stores. I'm glad I don't shoot that much and have a fair stash of RSTs.

Could this be a good side to low bird numbers?:crying::banghead:

[Reggie Bishop]

I have a stockpile of RST 20 and 28 gauge. I am taking bids. PMs only. :whistle:


Just kidding! I do have a bunch of both those gauges but I plan on using them all.

[Bruce Day]

Remington dove and quail 16 gauge 1oz loads actually measure 21/4" unfired and 21/2" fired. I have shot them in damascus and fluid steel guns. Perfectly safe and you can find them at Walmart for $7.79 per box.

There are always those who claim that Remington 1 oz 1200fps shells produce much more recoil than RST 1 oz 1200 fps shells. RST uses slow burning powder ( PB?) which lengthens the period of pressure but does not reduce the peak pressure. Because the length of push is longer it is often perceived as less than shorter duration loads when the recoil energy is the same. Recoil energy is of course not the same as, but related to , chamber pressure. Chamber pressures for all these loads is below SAAMI maximum.

Of these different brand cartridges, which produces the greatest foot pounds of recoil ?

[ED J, MORGAN]

Without calculations I will guess Federal . Which i use some.

[Aaron Beck]

looks like the rst. Is there a prize?

[Steve Huffman]

There are always those who claim that Remington 1 oz 1200fps shells produce much more recoil than RST 1 oz 1200 fps shells.

Of these different brand cartridges, which produces the greatest foot pounds of recoil ?

So what are the pressures of all these

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

I'm with Aaron. Do we get to split the prize?

[Dean Weber]

There are always those who claim that Remington 1 oz 1200fps shells produce much more recoil than RST 1 oz 1200 fps shells. RST uses slow burning powder ( PB?) which lengthens the period of pressure but does not reduce the peak pressure. Because the length of push is longer it is often perceived as less than shorter duration loads when the recoil energy is the same. Recoil energy is of course not the same as, but related to , chamber pressure. Chamber pressures for all these loads is below SAAMI maximum.

Of these different brand cartridges, which produces the greatest foot pounds of recoil ?

1 oz payload at 1200 fps

[Bruce Day]

There are many recoil calculators on the internet to use. All of them require the weight and velocity of the mass of everything that goes out the barrel over the mass of the gun. So , with that in mind And assuming the weight of the test gun is constant and the weight of the gas propellant and wad is roughly the same , the faster loads have more recoil. We have said that these are all 1 oz loads , so your choice to reduce recoil is to shoot a load with less fps or use a heavier gun. So the Remington and RST loads have the same recoil energy with 1200 fps and the others have less , with 1165 fps, etc.

Note that chamber length, angle of forcing cone , choke , size of shot , and design of the wad have nothing to do with recoil foot pounds.

[Dylan Rhodes]

There are many recoil calculators on the internet to use. All of them require the weight and velocity of the mass of everything that goes out the barrel over the mass of the gun. So , with that in mind And assuming the weight of the test gun is constant and the weight of the gas propellant and wad is roughly the same , the faster loads have more recoil. We have said that these are all 1 oz loads , so your choice to reduce recoil is to shoot a load with less fps or use a heavier gun. So the Remington and RST loads have the same recoil energy with 1200 fps and the others have less , with 1165 fps, etc.

Note that chamber length, angle of forcing cone , choke , size of shot , and design of the wad have nothing to do with recoil foot pounds.


This is correct, its really a simple physics problem. every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Sum of the energy in the longitudinal direction must be equal. The energy going forward being "pushed" off of the breach of the gun if you will, is directly absorbed by trying to move the mass of the gun and then your shoulder/buttplate or pad backwards. forcing cone, choke size, etc all would be in the radial direction and as such would be reacted against by the barrel, which in turn "pushes" back on the expansion of the gas and thats what causes things to go out the end of the gun.

Of course, you could make the philosophical arguement that eventually the barrel becomes so constricted the physics changes (squib loads and stuck wads)....but that only happens when the barrel reaction stresses can not contain the rapid expansion and thus you see catastrophic failure. The equations necessary to model this are highly complex due to the extremely short period of time it takes place in, you've departed classical mechanics and entered into the world of trying to model this as an energy strain relationship system, through some FEA or similar.

Source: My college research paper on system design which I wrote on load considerations to optimize the weight of the modern shotgun.

[Aaron Beck]

One thing I appreciate from rst is the variety of offerings. Low pressure or not, I dont frequently wish to shoot 1 oz at 1200 fps. 3/4 or 7/8 in the light gun

[Kevin McCormack]

At rock mountain and Ernie's I had cases upon cases of low brass 16ga.
shells. Only one one ''nice'' fellow bought (2) boxes, the other 10 cases
I carried home. It was quite a hike to my truck, never again !

Harry

At your price point Harry, that should tell you something!

[Kevin McCormack]

Alas, there are no shotgun shells of any kind at our local stores. I'm glad I don't shoot that much and have a fair stash of RSTs.

Could this be a good side to low bird numbers?:crying::banghead:

Or conversely, as Frank Zappa put it, "Could this be Phase 1 of Lumpy Gravy?"

[Mike Poindexter]

I know this thread has taken a slight twist off of the original topic, but as long as we are here, I have a couple of questions. Does the acceleration of the shot charge leaving the shell until it leaves the barrel vary from load to load? Is there any recoil associated with this acceleration, or does no recoil occur until the charge leaves the muzzle? Just wondering.

[Dean Romig]

Recoil begins at the instant of ignition.





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[Frank Srebro]

At your price point Harry, that should tell you something!

I disagree. Harry's shells were priced right while at the VGC and I would have jumped on his 16's but I had/have plenty and I mean plenty of RST and black Remington Game loads on hand. That was 3 months ago and what fellas might have thought was priced a little high at the VGC would probaby be gobbled up today ..... cash money, no tax, no shipping charge.

[Pete Lester]

Given the current inflationary environment in the retail market place, not Gunbroker, the price you scoff at today is tomorrow's bargain. Case in point, Ballistic Products raised the price on a 1000 Cheddite primers by 35% yesterday.

We have been in the most severe shortage of loaded shells and components I have ever seen for more than a year. The longer it goes the larger pent up demand becomes which causes the shortage to continue as consumers by up all the initial supply when it starts to hit the shelves. I am afraid we have a very long time to go finding what we want, and when we do it will be much more expensive.

[Frank Srebro]

I disagree. Harry's shells were priced right while at the VGC and I would have jumped on his 16's but I had/have plenty and I mean plenty of RST and black Remington Game loads on hand. That was 3 months ago and what fellas might have thought was priced a little high at the VGC would probaby be gobbled up today ..... cash money, no tax, no shipping charge.

If memory serves I got two boxes of Remington plastic 16's for all of $25.00 cash & carry from Harry at the VGC in September. A great hunting load, Shur Shot field loads with 1-1/8 ounce and 2-3/4 DE (1185 speed). He had many more but the 2 boxes will last me a while.

[Andrew Sacco]

At your price point Harry, that should tell you something!

Bingo

[Andrew Sacco]

How much is the shipping and tax and handling charges on Top of the $150?
Remember, you have to add that to the Cost of the shells.

Harry

They're out there for much less than $150 a flat, shipped and with tax. Get a teen to do the search. No joke.

[Andrew Sacco]

Andy, money talks and Bullshit walks, and you are the 2nd. one,
so start walking!

Harry

Gladly...

[Mike Koneski]

Or conversely, as Frank Zappa put it, "Could this be Phase 1 of Lumpy Gravy?"

Kevin, I am impressed that you know FZs work!! :)

[Tom Pellegrini]

Last Fall I was on Ammo Seek and found Fiocchi super target 12 ga for $49.99 a flat. I figured at that price I would order enough for the two other gentlemen that I shoot with. I ordered 12 flats and when I went to the shipping phase I was shocked to say the least. The shipping was $395.00. I thought that the vender's web site had a glitch so I waited until the next morning and called. The vender was Red River Outfitters. When I conveyed what I had experienced all the man I was talking to said was, "that's the way things are nowadays. They were making up the extra cost of the ammo with an astronomical amount of shipping. Needless to say no order was placed.

[Kevin McCormack]

Kevin, I am impressed that you know FZs work!! :)

Yes Mike; I am enamoured of many of his compositions; some of my favorites are "Toads of the Short Forest", "Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue", and "America Drinks and goes Home." Each somehow remain relevant in small and personal ways to our various shooting events over the year. Can't wait for our 2022 outings!

[CraigThompson]

Some of my uh friends were complaining about ammo availabilty then the cost . They're telling me this as I am methodically loading shells right in front of them . And I see the dim wat light bulb go on over their little heads . Then their brilliant idea comes bubbling out .

Usually went something like this ,

You've got plenty components , how about letting me buy enough at your cost to load me a flat of shells and I just pay your cost .

Usual reply on my nice days were , you don't wanna pay me what I charge to load for others . FWIW I don't load for others on a payment basis , if I load for someone it's done more as a gift and then very very rarely .

On not happy days it was more to the effect of "Get the hell out of my sight" .

[Milton C Starr]

How much is the shipping and tax and handling charges on Top of the $150?
Remember, you have to add that to the Cost of the shells.

Harry

Lowest today is the 1oz Federals, free shipping for members or $20 for non members.

[John Allen]

They were probably quoting you their actual cost. Ammo cost a lot because of the weight and special handling. I shipped a flat of 20 gauge shells from Tennessee to Texas and the cost was $39. $395 for 12 flats is high,but probably what they had to pay.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Parker appropriate 16 ga shells are made by Federal, Winchester , Remington , Fiocci , Herters and RST. I just bought two cases of recently made Winchester 1 oz loads.


On another note , I just ordered and received a case of Remington STS 12 ga and a case of Federal 12ga paper hull loads.

This thread has really wandered around and at one point got off into the never ending recoil argument. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and decision, but I personally don't believe that most of the loads listed above are "Parker appropriate" (or LC Smith or Older Ithaca or Lefever or whatever).

Number 1, I agree that high recoil should be avoided due to fragile wood. However, a broken stock won't kill me. A blown up barrel may, or someone near me.

I own a bunch of shotguns old and new and have been intensely following the low pressure quest for 15 years or more. I have seen too many actual pressure tests of Lite style shells to believe that most of them are what I want to shoot. The problem is that while they strive for low recoil, they also make good and sure no one is going to complain about an autoloader, which makes up a huge part of their market, is going to malfunction. Most tests of Lite loads I have ever seen tend to be in the 9000 to 10000 range. I for one don't consider that at all appropiate for a 120 year old shotgun. The ultimate goal I have always seen has been to duplicate black powder loading. That number from a working standpoint is in the 6000 to 6500 range. A lot of people seem to use a rule of staying below 8500 or so but that causes me personal concern. I shoot RST's but feel they are the max I want. From my standpoint, 6000 is my number and all the loads I make have been tested to be in the 5000 to 6500 range. There are a lot of them published if you look.
I also shoot only an appropriate length shell for the gun. Data shows there is not a huge increase by shooting long shells in short chambers. However, it varies and there is no way to know for sure. Just last week I saw a test report of this and in a 5 shot string the increase measured between 300 and 1200 psi increase. If you decide to shoot a "Lite" load and it happens to be 9500 psi and the long shell happens to boost that particular round by 1200 then you are in the full SAMMI max range and totally ignoring the entire concept.

Some people argue that there is a difference between black powder and new loads because of burning rate, but Sherman Bell's seminal article on the subject I think pretty much put that to rest. He tested low pressure loads using fast burning powder vs black powder with the same peak pressure readings and measured at many points down the barrel. The pressure profile all along the barrel was essentially duplicated.

There was a lengthy thread on the new Remington Vintage shells recently. The asumption seemed to be through the entire thread that these would be a new answer to low pressure ammo supply, but they were expensive and couldn't be found. They actually stocked quite a few of these at a local large gun store, but shot selection of what they had was useless. I did research the shells, however, and found not one mention anywhere in the data that they were a bit lower than normal pressure. They seemed to be marketed for the pure nostalgia of the thing.

My solution is to load either 2" or 2-1/2" shells with square loads or better of shot and shoot for a load that has been tested at 5500 to 6500 psi. They will then interchange in all my old guns with no worry. With the new guns, I generally stick to factory rounds as a source of empties.

[Mike Poindexter]

So the burn rate and pressure curve of one specific powder could create a different recoil moment or "feel" than another with the same muzzle velocity at the end of the barrels? I.e. some shells with identical printed charge weights and velocities could feel different when fired.

[Aaron Beck]

Powder companies make marketing claims about felt recoil but that doesnt change the physics. Those peters paper shells have a wad which is supposed to absorb some of the initial acceleration. Some will maintain these claims are true while others probably dont notice.

[Frank Srebro]

Just my take on things, but if I had a vintage American double gun (Parker, Fox, Lefever, LC Smith, Ithaca) made after smokeless powders came into common use and felt the need to limit it to < 6500 psi for fear of blowing up a barrel and injuring myself or someone else, I'd toss the barrels into my neighbor's swamp and part out the gun. If the barrels were that weak I wouldn't ever sell the gun intact or have it passed on and set someone else up for a blow up and serious injury or worse. I’m talking here about pressure, not recoil; they’re not directly related and are so often confused and some even use the terms interchangeably. Again this is just what I’d do in that situation. :)

[Mike Poindexter]

Just ordered two flats of B&P Comp I Target 12's, 2 3/4" 7/8 oz 7 1/2 at 1160 fps. $199.80 shipped. Two flat limit. AbleAmmo
www.ableammo.com

[William Davis]

100 dollars a flat is what one of my favorite Sporting Clays courses charges for B&P Comp One. He only stocks 1 oz no 7/8. Only sells to shooters, walk in don’t shoot won’t sell. He has AA 110 dollars Fiocchi 90. Plenty of shells on hand.

That B&P 7/8 oz was my first choice when stating with SxS guns, it’s a great load. 100 per flat = 10 dollars a box. My reloads that duplicate the B&P with 80 dollar per thousand primers 50 dollars x 25 lbs shot. Wads and powder on hand at pre shortage cost box cost 7.50 . Figure scalper powder prices add another dollar.

Looks like it’s what we need to expect going forward.

William

[Stan Hillis]

I have tried to use CompOnes for years because of their proven low pressures. I have given up in every gun except for my external hammer guns. I've tried them in a Perazzi, a BSS, numerous AH Foxes, and several others. All of them are prone to a very high rate of misfires due to light primer hits. My hammer guns will detonate them 100% of the time, so I've relegated the rest of the two flats I bought to those guns.

I'd be interested in hearing of others' incidences of failure to fire with them. Mike K. once told me that he had also seen several instances of it at his range. I'd love to be able to use them in more of my guns, but they just seat too deeply in the chambers for reliable ignition.

[William Davis]

Stan I have never had a fail to fire with Comp 1 shells in Parker’s . To be honest though have not used over a couple flats in one Parker a tight VH. Liking the shell went to reloaded duplicate ballistics with AA hulls.

I have used many Italian shells in modern guns, if they are available buy to conserve scarce components. Weak point on all is the rim. Good example I owned a Remington 31 16 G pump. Used Cheddites mostly to obtain empty’s to cut down for my Parker 16s some say 31 was the best pump, may or may not be true but it would not extract Cheddite hulls well. Beretta gas operated guns handle them fine. Europeans don’t reload much, durable case not needed

William

[Bill Murphy]

Mike P., what you are saying is that the B&P website that says "Everything" is out of stock is not quite telling the truth. "Out of stock" means we have plenty to sell you two flats? The prices are not off the charts compared to some.

[Andrew Sacco]

There is a lot of talk about total lack of ammunition, and I understand RST is having a big problem now, but my experience is that there is a lot of 12g ammo out there to buy. I think the biggest problem is people want it for $80 a flat. In the past month I have gotten Gun Club Lite, Federal Top Gun Lite, Fiocchi's in a variety of flavors, BP, Nobelsport Italia and Cheddite Mach 3 (a real screamer). With shipping the most I've paid is $17 a box, the least $11 a box. I split this with other guys to spread shipping costs out. I think that's the place we're in now with price. Your mileage WILL vary for 16g, 20g and 28g and forget about .410.

[Mike Poindexter]

Murph, when I got the tip on the 23rd I went straight to the Able Ammo website and found the 7/8 oz 7 1/2's still there, but the 8's all gone. I posted the link here after I made the order. I suspect that they may have sold out shortly after that. I never looked at the B&P site. Who knows?

[Andrew Sacco]

They went quick because I ordered 3 flats (they said they had 167 left) but they called ten minutes later saying they were all gone.