Opinions on Doll's Heads and other stuff

[Dean Romig]

1.) Regarding Parkers with composite barrels, be they hammer guns or hammerless... I have never seen a set of composite barrels that had a doll's head rib extension made of any kind of composite steel, Damascus, Twist, Laminated, Bernard, or any other. Why is that?? If they could make a full-length rib from composite steel, why not the doll's head extension?
I know that for a perfect doll's head fit it was easier and probably cheaper to make the doll's head a separate piece, filing the front of it where it joined the rib rather than trying to get a perfect fit of the doll's head if it were incorporated with the full-length rib, so I get that.... but why not make the doll's head from a matching piece of composite steel??

2.) Now, if fluid pressed steel was available and the doll's head could be made from it, why did we have to wait for Mr. Joseph Whitworth to finally make barrels with it? Or was fluid pressed steel not available until Whitworth produced it? Were the doll's head extension, horse shoes, wagon wheel rims, tools and machinery made from a steel that wasn't strong enough for shotgun barrels? Was it a problem to bore a piece of steel to make a shotgun barrel? Was it easier, stronger, prettier, to wind a bundle of twisted and hammer-welded ribbands around a mandrel to form the tubes?

We see reference to very early barrel tubes having been formed from cold-rolled steel where there was a weld seam up the length of it but this was nowhere as strong as fluid-pressed steel...

I'm sure this has been asked and answered somewhere... Just looking for some concise reasons and opinions.


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[Brian Dudley]

I have seen plenty of rib extensions made of composite steel. Here is an example of one.

102760

However, my observations are that they are usually never the same pattern as the rib or barrels. And the grain of the steel is usually in a direction as such that the extension just looks like a swirly mixture. Much like the photo above.

[Dean Romig]

I'll have to take your word for it Brian... I enlarged it but I still can't tell. Can you show a better picture of it?





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[Brian Dudley]

102762Another one.

[Dean Romig]

Nope, that’s not a doll’s head. Nuce gun though.





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[Brian Dudley]

Yup, I missed that fact. The very early guns do not have a separate extension. I just came across that photo in my albums on my phone.

[Aaron Beck]

I imagine that there are many reasons why the rib extension was usually steel, but it probably just came down to cost.
Some ideas I had.
The pattern in damascus is a result of stock removal, so making a matching piece would require some figuring (npi), hard to pair the right nib with the tubes and ribs from europe.

Pattern welded barrels (as opposed to knives) were pretty soft and while the cylinder was plenty strong for barrel work, a nib on the end of the barrel was probably more resilient in steel. it would likely wear better too.
Regarding 2- I dont know much about early barrel manufacturing but I have been wondering. Were civil war arms made of steel or iron? I just got a burnside carbine which is marked cast steel which I believe means the barrel is made of crucible homogenized steel, not cast as a barrel but could be incorrect. Regardless it is steel from 1864. I think it is clear that composite barrels were prefered by sportsmen and thats why they appear on higher grade guns. Lc Smith and Parker featured fluid steel barrels on the entry level gun but stepped up to a composite one Grade above and this held long after it was cheaper to make "better" steel barrels.
Thats a very nice looking Twist barrel gun!

[Dean Romig]

Aaron, I don’t understand what you mean in saying “the pattern in Damascus is the result of stock removal”. Please explain. We have always understood that the pattern of any composite barrel is the result of how the iron and steel rods were stacked, super heared, twisted then hammer welded around a mandrel, filed, polished, then chemically treated to enhance the pattern.

The only Twist barrels shown are on the PH that Brian posted - is that the one you mean?





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[Aaron Beck]

Yes on the twist, not the fanciest pattern but a handsome upgrade over a straight vh.

As for damascus, the revealed pattern we all like is found somewhere in the middle of the forged bar. So as you say, you stack up different metals, weld them together and then grind them back to reveal the pattern. Etching highlights the pattern but is part of the finishing process. I believe different amount of stock removal is required to show different patterns. You could show a twist pattern with little or no grinding whereas bernard would require removing almost half of the metal thickness as I understand it. In either case the same proportion of stock is removed from the thick and thin ends of the barrel tubes.
I believe the dolls head stock is thicker and wider than its corresponding rib so it seems likely it would always come out of a different piece of stock.

[Aaron Beck]

I may be incorrect about the starting dimension of the rib extension, I have never seen that wasnt installed.

[Greg Baehman]

In keeping with the thread topic Opinions on Doll's Heads and other stuff, here's some other stuff...I own a 12ga. Parker DH S/N 155290 w/30" damascus barrels that has a damascus top rib, but has a fluid steel bottom rib. I do not know how common or uncommon you'll find Parkers fitted with ribs like this?

[Dean Romig]

Greg, when I enlarge your picture to the fullest and study that rib it looks like dimly shown uniform pattern... Am I crazy? Or am I imagining it?





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[Greg Baehman]

Take a look at the pic below at the side of the doll's head extention, I believe you'll likely see the same or similar pattern as you're seeing on the bottom rib. I don't know if it's caused by reflection from the barrels, by striking, by refinishing solutions or by what? I still firmly believe the bottom rib as well as the extension are fluid steel.

[Breck Gorman]

I have seen very few dolls head extensions that were pattern welded. The vast majority are fluid steel. I don’t know why, but I have a theory.
The barrels, lug and dolls head extension were assembled and fitted to the action using an indexing screw through the dolls head extension. Once fitted, the assembly was brazed together. This was done at a much higher temperature than soldering, usually 800+ degrees to make the braze flow. Perhaps using similar fluid steel in the lup and dolls head extension was more controllable during brazing than dissimilar metals..
I really don’t know the true answer, and just posing a theory. Thanks

[Dean Romig]

That makes very good sense Breck, thanks for that angle.

Does that indexing screw go all the way between the barrel tubes and thread right into the lug?





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[Aaron Beck]

From what I can tell, sometimes the screw is visible in the rib extension and sometimes not. I would have thought that it would have been possible to blind tap it but if it was always through bored, then logically it would be easier to hide the screw in a similar steel material with no pattern.

[Craig Budgeon]

Dean, matching the dolls head material to the barrel material had to be a nightmare for Parker Bros. In order to match the the various materials you have to segregate them from receiving, to the machinist, to the fitters and finally to the braziers. What do you think the chances a twist dolls head ends up on a 4 blade set of damascus barrels? I believe that the bottom and top ribs would remain with the barrel blanks when received accept possibly for steel barrels. Never heard of fluid pressed steel but I have seen guns marked fluid compressed steel.

[Dean Romig]

“Fluid pressed” and “fluid compressed” are two accepted terms for the same product.

Regarding matching barrel steel types with the steel types of the ribs (if they were intended to be matched) must have been a tough job because I have examined composite barrels with ribs that do not match them. For instance, Twist barrels with Damascus rib(s) where often the top rib may match the barrel steel but the bottom rib is entirely different. Granted it’s unusual to see these just as it is unusual to see a composite doll’s head extension on composite barrels.

I guess there are exceptions to every rule. So I guess we should continue to say “when it comes to Parkers, never say never.”





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[Jim Wescott]

Also under “Other Stuff”. Is the top rib engraving usually read from muzzle to breech? I’ve only seen one exception to this.

[Dean Romig]

Many early Lifters without rib matting read the from the breech to the muzzle.





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[Brian Dudley]

I have seen very few dolls head extensions that were pattern welded. The vast majority are fluid steel. I don’t know why, but I have a theory.
The barrels, lug and dolls head extension were assembled and fitted to the action using an indexing screw through the dolls head extension. Once fitted, the assembly was brazed together. This was done at a much higher temperature than soldering, usually 800+ degrees to make the braze flow. Perhaps using similar fluid steel in the lup and dolls head extension was more controllable during brazing than dissimilar metals..
I really don’t know the true answer, and just posing a theory. Thanks



The rib extensions are not brazed on. The locking lug and tubes are, but not the extension. They are soft soldered just like the ribs. I have removed many of them with a normal torch right along with the ribs. In addition to the solder, they are held on with a single screw that is flush fitted to the rib surface along with the soft solder.

[Brian Dudley]

From what I can tell, sometimes the screw is visible in the rib extension and sometimes not. I would have thought that it would have been possible to blind tap it but if it was always through bored, then logically it would be easier to hide the screw in a similar steel material with no pattern.

The screw starts out high headed and once the extension is fitted to the barrels/action, it is dressed down along with the rib to eliminate the slot. I have observed one or two examples where the slot is just barely left and filled with solder. As in the slot was a bit deep to be completely eliminated in the rib profiling.

[Aaron Beck]

Brian,
that makes a lot more sense from a process and manufacturing angle. Does the solder color with the rust blue? I would assume not but maybe, Its hard to even tell where the rib extension starts on my vh.

[Bill Murphy]

OK, so the non functional extension on a Parker is soldered in place, and with a screw. How is the functional extension on a Lefever attached? Is solder strong enough to hold it in place?

[Brian Dudley]

Lefevers are brazed, as the extension is also the bolting for the gun. The same goes for smiths and foxes.

[Breck Gorman]

I think Brian is right about the dolls head extension being soldered after The indexing screw is set and after the lug is brazed. The rib extension was soldered, but the lug was definitely brazed