Opinions - True/Best Definition of Parker Skeet Gun?

[Dean Weber]

I am interested in opinions for what I have studied here on the forum, within TPS, and my own observations.

I have read many opinions here on the forum on what makes a true Parker skeet gun. Typically what I see as a general prevailing opinion is as follows:

- 26" barrel
- Ejectors (SAEs)
- SSTs
- BTFE with reinforcing rod and one piece loop
- Straight stock with checkered butt or DHE and higher with SSBP
- Barrel flats stamped as Skeet out and Skeet in (L/R) or reverse choked

The Parker story and the table page 411 represents skeet guns from 1929-1942 with the following characteristics:

- Guns produced after 1925 (none with all characteristics until 1929)
- Gauges 12 and smaller
- SAEs
- SSTs
- BTFEs
- Barrel lengths 28" or shorter

Therefore, based upon the table in the TPS and what we know is likely found in research letters or even original hang tags, stock configuration and skeet choke marks/stamps were not taken into account in the compilation of the table on page 411. This is understandable due to what may be available in the records.

Further, figure 9.26/page 411 suggests choke markings/stamps began to appear in 1937. Additionally, we know from knowledgeable members who have posted on this subject that early skeet guns were choked a bit tighter than what we might see on very late Remington guns due to the evolution of the game of skeet.

Based upon my contrast above, what does the community say about the following fictional example...is this a skeet gun (I assume it would have been captured in the TPS chart)?

- 1937
- Straight grip DHE with SSBP
- SAEs
- SST
- BTFE
- 28" or 24" barrels
- Chokes not marked but reverse choked with say M/M

My point in bringing this up is we frequently debate proper choke markings on barrel flats for a skeet gun. Yet we know the table does not take that into account and we also know skeet out/skeet in was an adaptation of the maturation of skeet as a game. Is a skeet configured gun without "standard choke markings on the barrel flats not a skeet gun? what if it is choked Modified or tighter? Or is it simply proper to suggest guns 1937 and beyond we expect the markings and prior we do not?

Appreciate your opinions.

[CraigThompson]

I recently acquired one that near as I can tell and from what some far more astute in this matter than myself proclaim it to be “the real deal” . And has the following,
- 26" barrel
- Ejectors (SAEs)
- SSTs
- BTFE with reinforcing rod and one piece loop
- Straight stock with checkered butt
- Barrel flats stamped as Skeet out and Skeet in (L/R) or reverse choked

[Dean Romig]

Dean, The subject of "What Defines a True Skeet Gun" is a deep and very convoluted definition.
In my opinion, in regard to Parker shotguns, and there are those who will disagree with me, a Parker Skeet gun should have the following features:

1. Barrel length 28" or less.
2. Beavertail forend.
3. Non Automatic safety.
4. Chokes of IC/MOD or less but more open is preferred. (Skeet In/Skeet Out stamps not required)
5. Twin beads.
6. Should have originally been bought primarily to shoot Skeet but hunting upland game as well is not a disqualifier.

I've seen guns with the proper Skeet In/Skeet Out chokes that had a dogs head butt plate and I've seen them without those stamps but with all other accepted Skeet attributes.

I wrote an article in Parker Pages Volume 24, Issue 3 titled "The Elliot's Twenty-Bore Parker Bros. Skeet Gun" highlighting a DHE with all the attributes of a Skeet gun but without the Skeet In/Skeet Out choke stamps, though it has, according to my measurements, upland chokes. The Elliott men used it extensively for Skeet shooting and took first and second places in two different classes at the local sportsmans club they belonged to, but they hunted with this gun in season as well.

The Elliott Skeet Gun.

[Dean Romig]

My own VHE 28 gauge is a good example of a documented Skeet gun in both the Parker factory records as well as the Abercrombie & Fitch documented records of it. ( 236912 )
Mine has no choke stamps on the barrel flats but the right barrel has the tighter choke of .015" constriction and the left has a constriction of .008" but it has all of the other Skeet gun attributes.


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[Reggie Bishop]

Here is mine -

20 VHE
Flats marked skeet choked
Single trigger
Checkered butt
Straight stock
Beaver tail

It’s a sweet one! Pictured with a 16 gauge skeet.

[Dean Romig]

Does anyone have an example of a PHE Skeet gun? Did Parker ever make a Grade-1 Skeet gun?

We know they made a handful of Trojan Skeet guns and all other grades up th AAHE but I’ve never heard of a PHE Skeet gun.





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[CraigThompson]

Couldn't figure out how to add pictures to my post above . So here's my recent addition . Nice enough gun if you can get over the fact it's been totally redone . And as I've said before I'm not fond of any word beginning with "re" .

[Dean Romig]

Certainly a nice enough example Craig! Very pretty!





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[Russ Jackson]

Here is mine Dean ,and Good Luck in your search it took me years to find this one ! It was in the same family since 1940 and handed down until just recently and the last Family member decided it was time to sell ! Right Place at the Right Time !

[Dean Romig]

Nice one Russ!! A lucky find!

Odd that your 28 gauge Skeet and mine were both manufactured in 1935 but only yours has the SKEET stamps.

Is your CHE 20 with beavertail, straight grip, 26" barrels stamped with Skeet In and Skeet Out on the barrel flats?





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[Russ Jackson]

Good Morning Dean , No it isn't but it could also be considered a Skeet gun I wish it were marked ! The day I bought that gun Dean I feel like I was the most blessed individual on the planet I called the dealer and made arrangements to trade two guns and some cash for it and they agreed but I had to send the guns for evaluation ,it was a " Nail Biting " couple of days but all went well ,my description of my guns was suitable and the deal went through ! A few months later I met with Chuck Brunner to purchase a gun from Chuck and took the CHE 20 with me for show and tell and he told me he had contacted the same dealer about the C a few minutes after I did but they were good to their word and I ended up with it ,not sure just how many years ago that was but I would say were pushing 12 to 15 years I have owned it , I love carrying it but I have to admit I am quite careful with it in the field and never carry it for Grouse just Field hunting Pheasant !

[Scott Janowski]

I have a GHE, 12 gauge, Beavertail, Single trigger, Ejectors, 26” Vent Rib barrels, twin beads. I/C MOD pistol grip that is very straight, and a Hawkins pad.
It also has a second set of 30” Vent Rib ( properly marked) barrels with Beavertail and twin beads choked MOD/ FULL.
This is a 1928 gun and no records are available.
At this early time in Skeet , it was recommended that you use the gun you hunt with.
So where do Ventilated ribs and recoil pads fit in?
I have to say definitely a gun ordered with Skeet in mind.

[CraigThompson]

Certainly a nice enough example Craig! Very pretty!





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Thanks , but ............ , I'd like it better if it wasn't redone .

[CraigThompson]

Nice one Russ!! A lucky find!

Odd that your 28 gauge Skeet and mine were both manufactured in 1935 but only yours has the SKEET stamps.

Is your CHE 20 with beavertail, straight grip, 26" barrels stamped with Skeet In and Skeet Out on the barrel flats?





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The 12 I have was shipped on December 23rd 1936 . My grandnson was born December 23rd .This one may eventually end up in the Philippines :whistle:

[CraigThompson]

Here is mine -

20 VHE
Flats marked skeet choked
Single trigger
Checkered butt
Straight stock
Beaver tail

It’s a sweet one! Pictured with a 16 gauge skeet.

Reggie at the risk of being nosey , did you acquire that one at auction in the last 14 or so months ? I kinda went after one at a CT Firearms Auction in October of 2020 . Was wondering if this were the same gun ?

[Reggie Bishop]

Reggie at the risk of being nosey , did you acquire that one at auction in the last 14 or so months ? I kinda went after one at a CT Firearms Auction in October of 2020 . Was wondering if this were the same gun ?

This gun came out of an estate. Gun was supposedly bought new by a family member. It comes as close to being an unfired gun as I have ever owned.

[Bill Murphy]

My recently acquired 28 has 28" cylinder and cylinder bores. It is a very late, May 1939 gun that was apparently made at a time when proper skeet bores had been established, unlike earlier times when a lot of choke was thought most efficient. The chokes are not marked on my gun, probably because they are not skeet in and out chokes. However, proper skeet features are present, checkered butt, non automatic safety, twin ivory sights. I acquired my .410 from the original family, who had never seen a skeet field. It was a working quail gun from northern Virginia and shows its use in the field. My 20 is also from northern Virginia, but was used on the skeet field by Remington guy, Bob Hess, who was an NSSA competitor. Bob was the guy mentioned in some Parker literature as the person who outed the rare 24 gauge Parker. I hadn't thought of the fact that all three of my Parker skeet guns came from Virginia. I shot on the International Skeet circuit with Colonel John Hess, who one night at dinner told me about his dad's great little 20 gauge Parker skeet gun. I choked on my food before admitting to the Colonel that his dad's Parker was safe at home in my gun room.

[Dean Weber]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;349880]Dean, The subject of "What Defines a True Skeet Gun" is a deep and very convoluted definition.
In my opinion, in regard to Parker shotguns, and there are those who will disagree with me, a Parker Skeet gun should have the following features:

1. Barrel length 28" or less.
2. Beavertail forend.
3. Non Automatic safety.
4. Chokes of IC/MOD or less but more open is preferred. (Skeet In/Skeet Out stamps not required)
5. Twin beads.
6. Should have originally been bought primarily to shoot Skeet but hunting upland game as well is not a disqualifier.

Dean,
I appreciate your input to my questions. Do you agree that your criteria in 4-6 would not have been taken into account in TPS chart? If true, if we disregard any guns which were upgraded after the fact, the numbers in the chart would still be potentially higher than if we also considered non-automatic safety or twin beads as an absolute criteria? Certainly the authors were unable to consider the purpose of the gun in #6.
Best

[Reggie Bishop]

In my opinion, the definition of a Parker skeet gun is going to vary depending upon who you ask. I have heard some who are of the opinion that if the flats aren't stamped skeet in/skeet out then it isn't a skeet gun.

[Dean Weber]

My recently acquired 28 has 28" cylinder and cylinder bores. It is a very late, May 1939 gun that was apparently made at a time when proper skeet bores had been established, unlike earlier times when a lot of choke was thought most efficient. The chokes are not marked on my gun, probably because they are not skeet in and out chokes. However, proper skeet features are present, checkered butt, non automatic safety, twin ivory sights. I acquired my .410 from the original family, who had never seen a skeet field. It was a working quail gun from northern Virginia and shows its use in the field. My 20 is also from northern Virginia, but was used on the skeet field by Remington guy, Bob Hess, who was an NSSA competitor. Bob was the guy mentioned in some Parker literature as the person who outed the rare 24 gauge Parker. I hadn't thought of the fact that all three of my Parker skeet guns came from Virginia. I shot on the International Skeet circuit with Colonel John Hess, who one night at dinner told me about his dad's great little 20 gauge Parker skeet gun. I choked on my food before admitting to the Colonel that his dad's Parker was safe at home in my gun room.

Bill,
By your comments, can I conclude your opinion to be a checkered butt for less than grade 3, twin beads, and non-auto safety are requirements for a Parker skeet gun? Also, you do not believe choke markings are a requirement?
Thank you for your viewpoint.

[Dean Romig]

Good Morning Dean , No it isn't but it could also be considered a Skeet gun I wish it were marked ! The day I bought that gun Dean I feel like I was the most blessed individual on the planet I called the dealer and made arrangements to trade two guns and some cash for it and they agreed but I had to send the guns for evaluation ,it was a " Nail Biting " couple of days but all went well ,my description of my guns was suitable and the deal went through ! A few months later I met with Chuck Brunner to purchase a gun from Chuck and took the CHE 20 with me for show and tell and he told me he had contacted the same dealer about the C a few minutes after I did but they were good to their word and I ended up with it ,not sure just how many years ago that was but I would say were pushing 12 to 15 years I have owned it , I love carrying it but I have to admit I am quite careful with it in the field and never carry it for Grouse just Field hunting Pheasant !


Well, when it becomes mine Russ, it will definitely see the grouse woods... on fair weather days only.

I remember just after you first got it and wondered about its originality and you brought it to the Spring Southern, if memory serves correctly, and the experts couldn't find a single reason not to believe it is completely original. I fell in love but I didn't get to hold it for very long - a LOT of guys wanted to examine it.




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[Dean Romig]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;349880]Dean, The subject of "What Defines a True Skeet Gun" is a deep and very convoluted definition.
In my opinion, in regard to Parker shotguns, and there are those who will disagree with me, a Parker Skeet gun should have the following features:

1. Barrel length 28" or less.
2. Beavertail forend.
3. Non Automatic safety.
4. Chokes of IC/MOD or less but more open is preferred. (Skeet In/Skeet Out stamps not required)
5. Twin beads.
6. Should have originally been bought primarily to shoot Skeet but hunting upland game as well is not a disqualifier.

Dean,
I appreciate your input to my questions. Do you agree that your criteria in 4-6 would not have been taken into account in TPS chart? If true, if we disregard any guns which were upgraded after the fact, the numbers in the chart would still be potentially higher than if we also considered non-automatic safety or twin beads as an absolute criteria? Certainly the authors were unable to consider the purpose of the gun in #6.
Best


Dean, I wouldn’t begin to second-guess the work of the authors of “The Parker Story”
There may have been some omissions in the data they have presented but we must keep in mind what a colossal task it was to have compiled and sorted all the data that they did - our collective hats-off to them.
We can imagine and presume a lot of things to fill in certain blanks but in the end I think we need to accept that there will always be questions that remain to be andwered.





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[Brian Dudley]

There are certainly "True" skeet guns that are guns ordered as Skeet guns as per the catalogs and I would think that these guns would be also choked and marked as such Skeet-In and Skeet-Out. As cataloged, the skeet guns would be straight grip, BTFE, checkered butt, SST and Skeet chokes. To me the Skeet Choking is the trump card. That is the first and foremost in defining a true skeet gun. If the customer wanted a skeet gun, but preferred a pistol grip, or a recoil pad, there were plenty of true skeet guns ordered like that. Also Double triggers would fall into that personal preference category. The BTFE is something that I cannot imagine someone not wanting on their skeet target gun.

Barrel length will also come into play as shorter barrels were considered the standard for the early days of Skeet shooting.

There are certainly many guns made that one would call "Skeet configured" in that they have BTFE, Checkered butt and Straight grip, but they are choked tighter than skeet, ie: IC/M or M/F, etc... If the gun does not have the Skeet markings, then I would not call it any other than a "Skeet Configured" gun. Not an official "Skeet Gun".

The above are MY thoughts on the matter. That is all.

You have to be careful with skeet guns. Due to many Skeet "upgrades" that came out of Ilion after the fact. They can fall into the category of '32 Fords. There are more on the road today than there were in 1932.

[Bill Murphy]

Guns marked Skeet In and Skeet Out did not neccesarily leave the factory marked such. As Brian says, "skeet configured" guns are common, with some of their features added later. Beavertail forends are one feature that can be added. However, I have found that 28" barrels are not a kiss of death as I and some others once thought. Anyhow, watch out.

[Larry Stauch]

This is my little 20 gauge Skeet gun. No big deal about it, just thought I would post some pictures for the discussion.
X
X
X

[Dean Romig]

There are certainly "True" skeet guns that are guns ordered as Skeet guns as per the catalogs and I would think that these guns would be also choked and marked as such Skeet-In and Skeet-Out. As cataloged, the skeet guns would be straight grip, BTFE, checkered butt, SST and Skeet chokes. To me the Skeet Choking is the trump card. That is the first and foremost in defining a true skeet gun. If the customer wanted a skeet gun, but preferred a pistol grip, or a recoil pad, there were plenty of true skeet guns ordered like that. Also Double triggers would fall into that personal preference category. The BTFE is something that I cannot imagine someone not wanting on their skeet target gun.

Barrel length will also come into play as shorter barrels were considered the standard for the early days of Skeet shooting.

There are certainly many guns made that one would call "Skeet configured" in that they have BTFE, Checkered butt and Straight grip, but they are choked tighter than skeet, ie: IC/M or M/F, etc... If the gun does not have the Skeet markings, then I would not call it any other than a "Skeet Configured" gun. Not an official "Skeet Gun".


The trump card for me is not necessarily the Skeet In - Skeet Out stamps on the barrel flats, but the fact that the factory records record it as a "Skeet gun."
In the case of mine, 236912 a 1935 gun preceding the adoption of the desirable Skeet stamps, all documentation supports it being a "Skeet gun" and I can't argue with that.






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[David Noble]

Here is my contribution to this discussion, especially on barrel length.
I found this several years ago at a very reasonable price and remember thinking it was such an odd configuration for a SKEET GUN that it was undoubtedly one of the Del Grego upgrades.
I decided recently to request a letter on it and was surprised to learn that it actually IS a real SKEET GUN. The serial number and Remington code place it's production in 1937 where it stayed in the Meriden warehouse until being moved to the Remington factory in 1939 and apparently it was still there around the time Remington stopped Parker production in 1942. I guess the fact that Parker and Remington only made 28 16ga GHE SKEET GUNS shows that they weren't hot sellers.
Only about 13% of all the SKEET GUNS made in all gauges (1098) had 28" barrels so it's probably safe to say less than 2 or 3 were made in that length in GHE 16 ga.
This gun also has the manual safety feature.

[Reggie Bishop]

According to the letter on my VHE is a 1935 made gun. It has skeet choke markings. Serial #237230. And I see that Russ' skeet gun is also a 1935 mfg with the skeet markings on the flats. Interesting.

[Bill Murphy]

David, that is a great addition to the skeet gun story.

[Dean Romig]

That's quite a nice one David.





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[Russ Jackson]

Well, when it becomes mine Russ, it will definitely see the grouse woods... on fair weather days only.

I remember just after you first got it and wondered about its originality and you brought it to the Spring Southern, if memory serves correctly, and the experts couldn't find a single reason not to believe it is completely original. I fell in love but I didn't get to hold it for very long - a LOT of guys wanted to examine it.




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I have to say Dean ,YOU actually are the first person who ask to be put on the list should I ever part with it ,although over the years the list has grown to be Quite Long :rotf: !!! I have a Journal for my Wife or Daughter to contact certain Gun Buyers when the day arrives and believe it or not your name and number are first on the list for the C ! Hopefully that won't be for many a year !:)

[Dean Romig]

Like you Russ, I hope that day is so far into the future neither of us will remember which end of the gun to point at the bird.

If in the meantime you decide to sell it please give me plenty of time to round up the $30K down payment. :whistle:





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[David Noble]

I've something else to add about the Skeet guns. They were sometimes ordered with extra barrels. Here is a 20 ga VHE Skeet that was ordered with an extra set of 30" barrels choked Full and IMP.Mod. This gun has all the standard features of the Skeet guns including straight stock with checkered butt, manual safety, selective single trigger, beavertail, etc. The 30" barrels came with it's own beavertail forend, both marked with "2". Double Ivory beads were a nice touch.

[Chad Hefflinger]

I had a GHE 12 skeet at one time that had all the features mentioned and was confirmed through Abercrombie and Fitch. I have a VHE 16 skeet that has all of the features mentioned with the exception of a Noshock pad.

[Russ Jackson]

Like you Russ, I hope that day is so far into the future neither of us will remember which end of the gun to point at the bird.

If in the meantime you decide to sell it please give me plenty of time to round up the $30K down payment. :whistle:





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Will Do !:rotf:

[Dean Romig]

Wow David, that combo set is BEAUTIFUL!!

I have pivctures of the same Skeet/Trap combo but a CHE. I snagged the pictures off the gunbroker listing about 15 years ago. I’ll find the pics and post them right here.


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[Dave Noreen]

As cataloged, the skeet guns would be straight grip, BTFE, checkered butt, SST and Skeet chokes.

Remington used pictures of a straight grip VHE for their catalog Skeet Gun picture, but the style of grip was optional --

102067

102068

102069

102070

102071

[CraigThompson]

I’m curious in the picture below what are the two things that look like tack boards on posts at both the high and low houses ?

[Bill Murphy]

OK, here goes. In the early days of skeet, the birds were thrown straight across the field, rather than at the angle they are thrown at today. The birds and pieces were aimed right at the opposite house and consequently, the shooter. The board protected the shooter from being hit by the birds and pieces from the opposite house. When "something" is headed his way, the shooter could step aside behind the board.

[Scott Janowski]

Bill, Do you know when they changed the target angle?

[Dean Romig]

Additionally, they were called "blinders.”



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[Russ Jackson]

According to the letter on my VHE is a 1935 made gun. It has skeet choke markings. Serial #237230. And I see that Russ' skeet gun is also a 1935 mfg with the skeet markings on the flats. Interesting.

This could possibly be a good thread for " Parker's Found in P.P. , for the first Skeet Stamped ,Parker ! Dean's gun is well documented especially with the A&F Letter that it is an early Skeet gun and Deans ,Reggie's and mine are all 1935 Manufactured Skeet Guns so some where between Deans 236912 and Reggies 237230 possibly is the first Parker with Stamped Barrel Flats ! Possibly Reggies gun ,I'm out with 238599 !

[Dean Romig]

Good idea Russ! It would be really interesting to know who’s Skeet gun was the first to be stamped Skeet Out and Skeet In.




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[John Bastiani]

My Parker DHE 28 ga. Skeet(marked skeet in and skeet out on barrel flats) is SN- 238134. Its probably in and around the middle of the Remington production of Parker skeet guns.

[CraigThompson]

OK, here goes. In the early days of skeet, the birds were thrown straight across the field, rather than at the angle they are thrown at today. The birds and pieces were aimed right at the opposite house and consequently, the shooter. The board protected the shooter from being hit by the birds and pieces from the opposite house. When "something" is headed his way, the shooter could step aside behind the board.

The one on the high house I don’t see as a hindrance but the one on the low house I’d probably pitch a bitch about when shooting from station six .

[Reggie Bishop]

Listed today. Re-finished me thinks. No picture of the barrel flats, but may be an example of a non-straight grip skeet gun.


https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns/parker-vhe-skeet-28-gauge.cfm?gun_id=101802306

[Dave Noreen]

My 1935 Remington Skeet & Trap equipment catalog shows the "blinders" and the targets crossing station eight. The next one I have is undated but shows their skeet and trap loads with the New Remington Crimp and in the text mentions the 1939 GAH. It shows the layout with no "blinders" and the crossing point out from station eight. No "blinders" on this skeet field near Edmonds, Washington, with the 1939 club champions.

102089

[Dave Noreen]

Just finished the above post and found this from Hunting & Fishing, August 1936 --

102090

[Dave Noreen]

Listed today. Re-finished me thinks. No picture of the barrel flats, but may be an example of a non-straight grip skeet gun.


https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns/parker-vhe-skeet-28-gauge.cfm?gun_id=101802306

If Barnett showed pictures of watertables and barrel flats my file of saved pictures would be overloading my hard drive!! At least their pictures are usually in good focus.

[CraigThompson]

I truely love shooting this game , wish I still had the drive to shoot a 400-500 target event every weekend for three to four months non stop as I used to do . A friend at the shop got his new K-80 32” skeet gun in yesterday and it’ll be off to Briley for insert tubes next week . He’s five or six years older than me , but he’s decided he wants to get back in the registered target game . He and I as well as plenty others that shot skeet over the past forty years have a friend in Fairfax R&G that I believe turned 89 this year , he’s the high target leader in the NSSA records and still shoots just about every shoot he can make up here or in Florida during the cold months .

[Dean Romig]

Yeah Reggie, that's not the original stock or if it is the original, all the "Parker" has been lost by re-contouring the nose.





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[Greg Baehman]

What are the typical constrictions of guns stamped SKEET OUT and SKEET IN? I assume the constrictions likely vary by gauge.?

[Dave Noreen]

I wonder how many Parker guns were built as "skeet guns" from the ground up and how many became "skeet guns" later? Did Remington pull a gun from inventory and make it into a "skeet gun" when an order came in? I've recorded two 1-frame 16-gauges that are marked SKEET IN/SKEET OUT that have two date codes stamped on their barrel flats. Likewise, many guns I've seen marked SKEET IN/SKEET OUT have several repair codes on the barrel flats. A lot to speculate, and very few facts with the thin Remington era record information.

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, did you somehow neglect to mention the made up skeet guns made later than the closing of the Parker operation and the end of Remington repair codes?

[Dean Romig]

Bill, I think Dave covered that in his question "and how many became "skeet guns" later?"

I've seen a number of those "later" Skeet guns and they're usually pretty self-evident.



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