11 Gauge

[Arthur Shaffer]

I am really amazed by the confusion that is so widespread concerning 11 gauge barrels. The same situation exists with 9 gauge barrels, but since Parker never, to my knowledge, cataloged a 9 ga it isn't a real point of conflict. I ran into that when I bought a 10 gauge Parker with barrels that measured 0.794 - 0.795 inches. I spent an entire evening going through The Parker Story, taking notes, and eventually coming to understand that in the 1870's and early1880's, the majority of the 10 gauges were fitted with 9 gauge barrels and the majority of the 12 gauges were fitted with actual 11 bore barrels. This, coupled with the stepped chamber mouth (essentially no forcing cone) and the brass shells made to match these chambers and barrels inproved perormance. The chambers had to actually be enlarged to current dimensions when paper shells became more universally accepted. This situation was so widespread that in March 1892, the company annotated the order books to set a policy that the standard from that point forward for 12 gauge would be to use true bore gauge barrels. If these were not used, the gun ws to be stamped with an "O" to signify the "old" or "original" size. The stock books soon after carried a similar notice for the 10 gauge.

THe impact on 10 ga is that people often think their barrels have been bored out to extreme dimensions. Since the 11 gauge was sold but extremely rare, people seem to be constantly celebrating the find of a very rare Parker. The Parker Story shows a Parker tag provided that outlined the best loading practice for these guns and they recommended 9ga over powder and over shot wads.

In the previous Parker Pages there was an article that featured one such gun. It was supposedly an 11 ga in grade L2. The serial number was not listed, but it was quoted as being made in, I believe, 1874. I looked entirely through the 1874 serial number listings and could find no 11 ga gun with those specs. The article went on to say that a short 10 gauge shell fit the gun perfectly. Since the 11 ga barrels were used for 10, 11 and 12 ga guns, I have to presume this was a pretty standard 10 ga.

One large Gunbroker seller who lists scores and scores of overpriced Parkers has been listing an Ultra rare 11 Gauge Parker for many, many thousands of dollars. It is listed as having .75 inch bores and .810 chambers, both right between 12 and 10 gauge. It states that it is listed in the serialization book as a 12 gauge, which he states is what usually happened with 11 gauge guns for some unknown reason.

I sent him a note that the .750 bore is an 11 bore and the .810 chamber is exactly the correct spec for a modern 12 ga shell, and if it was listed in the records as a 12 gauge then what he was selling was a very well worn 12 gauge grade 2 gun. No response has been recieved.

The rarity of 11 gauge Parkers and the commonality of the 11 ga barrel itself seems to drive everyone who measures a bore to try and cash in on his rare find.

It's a shame that Parker never stamped their gauge size on the guns. This is an area that really set the early guns apart from the rest of the inustry but seems to just generate a lot of confusion now to a lot of buyers.

[Kevin McCormack]

YEAH, BABY!

[Milton C Starr]

I seen that one the other day the plaid table cloth guy, also Im not 100% sure but that doesnt look like a grade 2?

[Dave Noreen]

A decade later Chamberlin Cartridge Co. (1886-87 catalog) offered special loads with oversize wads for Parker Bros. guns.

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When our major ammunition manufacturers began offering factory loaded shells in the 1890s, we see no such foolishness.

[Bruce P Bruner]

I seen that one the other day the plaid table cloth guy, also Im not 100% sure but that doesnt look like a grade 2?
Yup, I have seen it also. "plaid table guy":rotf:

[charlie cleveland]

I have a 11 ga parker hammer gun once owned by Austin Hogan...10 ga paper shell will not go in the chamber...12 ga shell to loose in chamber but will fire in it....11 ga shell would be just right but I do not have a 11 ga shell to try it....charlie

[Arthur Shaffer]

I have a 11 ga parker hammer gun once owned by Austin Hogan...10 ga paper shell will not go in the chamber...12 ga shell to loose in chamber but will fire in it....11 ga shell would be just right but I do not have a 11 ga shell to try it....charlie

That's because you have a real 11 gauge. There was a good article in an older DGJ about one.

[Dave Noreen]

I did a scan of the available Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogs/price sheets/broadsides. The 1873 price list offers brass shells from 8 to 14 gauge. The 1877 E. Remington & Sons catalog offers both A & B 10- and 12-gauge brass shells and 16B brass shells. I only found No. 11 brass shells offered in the 1880 and 1882 (No. 11B) UMC catalogs.

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Everything 1884 and later no No. 11 shells. Nothing I've found offers a No. 11 paper shell.

[Chuck Bishop]

Art, can you please point me to the order books and stock books that show this? I haven't seen this documented in my 10 years of looking at the records.

This situation was so widespread that in March 1892, the company annotated the order books to set a policy that the standard from that point forward for 12 gauge would be to use true bore gauge barrels. If these were not used, the gun ws to be stamped with an "O" to signify the "old" or "original" size. The stock books soon after carried a similar notice for the 10 gauge.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Art, can you please point me to the order books and stock books that show this? I haven't seen this documented in my 10 years of looking at the records.

I of course haven't seen the actual books. The info I gave was a semi-quote from the Parker Story. I don't have Volume II with me, but the note I took says it is on page 517 of Volume II. It is a reasonably complete discussion and quotes some typical bore sizes etc. This subject is tied to other discussions of brass shell dimensions. This discussion runs at least through page 523 and includes actual measurements of bores from some early guns that are stated to be totally original.

The chart on page 519 lists bores as typical modern sizes, and these are quoted by a lot of people as standard for Parkers. This is only strictly true after 1920 I believe. Up through around 1880 it probably wasn't true, and may or may not have been from the 1800's to sometime closer to 1920.

There also appears in that book a picture of a tag distributed with guns of that vintage which gave Parkers optimum load for the 10 gauge and they recommended loading the shells with 9ga over powder and overshot wads.

I have also been told in a response about stampings that one of the marks with no known meaning is an "O" found on some 12 gauges. If the Parker Story info is accurate, that could well explain that mark. If some members have O marked 12 gauge barrels, it would be interesting to see their bore measurements.

One thing I have never seen is any similar discussion about the 16 gauge. I have one from 1901, but it is a standard 16 ga bore size. If any lifter model 16 owners have measured their bores, it would be interesting to know if any are overbored.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Chuck

The section I read states that the notation on the 12 bore was made in the stock book in March 1892. The similar 10 bore note was reported to be a a few months later. This should allow you look for it pretty quickly.

Anything written is open to error, but this was a discussion several pages long by some knowledgeable people, so I doubt they were simply reporting anecdotal evidence. They seemed to be careful to report it as such throughout their writing. I for one would be very interested to know if these notations really exist.

[Milton C Starr]

Yup, I have seen it also. "plaid table guy":rotf:

He does have a few interesting listings and then some of his others are puzzling.

[Dean Romig]

One thing I have never seen is any similar discussion about the 16 gauge. I have one from 1901, but it is a standard 16 ga bore size. If any lifter model 16 owners have measured their bores, it would be interesting to know if any are overbored.



My 16 gauge D Lifter 18719 measures .664” and .665” the entire length of the bore excluding the choke constriction.





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[Arthur Shaffer]

I thought I would dredge up this old thread because there was an interesting report in the most recent Parker Pages under Parkers In Pulp for 1893 which relates to this subject. I again read the section in Volume II of TPS concerning bores starting on page 516 and noticed that it quoted an article from 1873 applauding Parker for overboring their barrels. In the Parker Pages this month, there is an August 12, 1893 report from American Field covering the large display of Parker guns (300+) at the Chicago Columbian Exposition in 1893, which was overseen by DuBrey. A major talking point of the story was that all the Parkers at the time of the exhibit were made to true bore size and that up to that time, they had used barrels one gauge larger, along with the matching wads. The comment was made that this change made them perform better with Nitro powders (an allusion, I supect, to paper shells). In reading the article, it seems obvious that the article was based primarily on an interview with DuBrey who was peddling the corporate line. Given the importance of this exposition, the comments made, and the fact that this was only 17 months after the 12 gauge bore and "o" stamp comments were entered into the shop books in March 1892 according to TPS, I suspect that this was a much more considered change than just being related to barrel supply and industry standardization. It would appear that Parker made the change based on customer perception of modern trends in ammo and their competitive position. It would still be interesting from a scholarly standpoint if the statements concerning the March 1892 note and the subsequent 10 gauge note could be verified. It would certainly make it easier to evaluate the originality of pre and post 1892 barrels in a more definitive manner.

[charlie cleveland]

one thing for sure 11 ga shells are hard to come by....I ve only seen one parker brothers 11 ga paper shell and a few 11 b brass shells....there was a discussion about this old 11 ga I got from brian our gun smith this gun was owned by Austin hogun...he discussed this gun at length....dean may can recall some of it....Charlie....

[todd allen]

I have pondered this subject a bit. I know I have posted about an early Lifter (1874) I bought from Chadick's some years back that was sold as a 10 gauge (based on bore size) but turned out to have 12 gauge chambers. Someone back in the day suggested that maybe it was actually built to be an 11 gauge chambered for brass cartridges. I dunno.
I understand the mistake, and had no problem keeping the gun as it shoots 12 ga. just fine.

[John Davis]

You never know what you might find in “Parkers ln Pulp.”

[Dean Romig]

You never know what you might find in “Parkers ln Pulp.”



My favorite ongoing contribution in Parker Pages to the collective knowledge of
Parkerphiles, bar none.






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[Dave Noreen]

Looking at the early UMC price lists on the International Ammunition web site I see 1869 and early 1870s show 10- & 12-gauge brass shells. By 1878 they show 8- to 14-gauge brass shells. The 1880 price list shows a wider array of brass shells including No. 11 & 15 and they mention A & B shells along with the addition of paper shells.

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In the 1882 UMC catalog they only list No. 11 B shells --

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By the 1884 UMC catalog the No. 11 shells are gone --

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