Resizing some "different" 8 gauge hulls

[Milton C Starr]

So I got the idea to experiment with resizing these other Winchester 8 ga shells I just bought , I was bored and figured why not . I wouldnt mind getting a few more of each to reload they are in surprising good shape and would be nice to have a few on hand . The low brass shell is pretty neat it actually resizes probably the easiest of any of the industrial shells I have done. The paper one is a powder sampler shell which I suppose is why its has no factory markings on it . I also bought a orange Winchester hulls as well for no particular reason .

[Milton C Starr]

Resizes pretty easily.

[Milton C Starr]

I removed the shot from the hull before resizing Im always a bit overly cautious when resizing primed hulls anyhow .

[charlie cleveland]

all looks good...first time I have seen a orange hull 8 ga......looks like they crimp good to...charlie

[Milton C Starr]

all looks good...first time I have seen a orange hull 8 ga......looks like they crimp good to...charlie

The orange one is a ribbed hull also, dont think ive seen that before on a 8 gauge shell . According to Remingtons website they make a yellow hull also but I have never seen these show up anywhere . I think the paper hulls probably wont have much use trying to reload it looks the only way to remove the crimp is to cut it off which leaves you with a 2 3/4" hull .

[William Davis]

Interesting post, photos add a lot. Do you use the Arbor press in the photo. How about lube. Any on the base when sizing ?

Willam

[Milton C Starr]

Interesting post, photos add a lot. Do you use the Arbor press in the photo. How about lube. Any on the base when sizing ?

Willam

I use imperial sizing die wax , however I have tested different lubes/oil to see what works. On the Winchester hulls you can size them with just a spray of Rem oil the brass, the Win hulls brass is very workable. Yes I use the one ton arbor press from harbor freight . The Winchester clear hulls read .945" on the brass band before and after resizing .925" . I then turn the die upside down and insert a 3/4" diameter wood dowel and use the arbor press to push it back out doesnt take much effort .

I found a hull trimmer I plan on buying that looks like it could be easily modified to work on 8 gauge hulls . The hull sits on a roller and you just spin it around I think I could easily make a roller for the 8 gauge hulls.

[charlie cleveland]

looks like you have all this down pat...boy I rember my first resizeing attempts...I used those old conduit pliars they worked but left the brass hullbent up pretty good...I think I done some for you using the pliars....wayne gorez sent me a detailed blue print of how to make a 8 ga resizer a friend done the machine work I now turn out factory looking hulls...its a one step operation with a press...charlie

[Milton C Starr]

looks like you have all this down pat...boy I rember my first resizeing attempts...I used those old conduit pliars they worked but left the brass hullbent up pretty good...I think I done some for you using the pliars....wayne gorez sent me a detailed blue print of how to make a 8 ga resizer a friend done the machine work I now turn out factory looking hulls...its a one step operation with a press...charlie

Yeah Charlie I got some of the black Remington hulls you did with the pliers , does look like the die is much easier to use :rotf:.

Ive been researching roll crimping and I know alot of people dont like the BPI one but its the only one for the 8 gauge. Though I read it actually works much better if you can run it extremely slow around 60-100 rpms but I couldnt find a drill press that slow. So I came up with a different idea You can buy these reproduction hand crank ones that have changeable heads. I think I could modify it so I could install the 8 gauge roll crimper and the rear part is just a cupped dish which would be easy to fashion one up. Ive read some Mica Wad Slick helps alot on the BPI roll crimper.

[charlie cleveland]

that's a neat crimp roller with all those different heads I have a 8 ga roll crimper like the one you show except much older...also use the ballistic crimper with a drill it makes fair looking crimps...the old roll crimper is much better this is the only old hand crimper I ever ran across in the 8 ga...seen one for a 4 ga but it was expensive let it pass....I got the 8 ga crimper from the Darrel middlebrook estate....charlie

[Milton C Starr]

that's a neat crimp roller with all those different heads I have a 8 ga roll crimper like the one you show except much older...also use the ballistic crimper with a drill it makes fair looking crimps...the old roll crimper is much better this is the only old hand crimper I ever ran across in the 8 ga...seen one for a 4 ga but it was expensive let it pass....I got the 8 ga crimper from the Darrel middlebrook estate....charlie

I could have gotten a original one a few months back but when it hit $600 at auction I passed. It seems the guys who do alot of roll crimping say the one reloadersnetwork sells is the best I think because its a 4 pin design while the BPI is 1 but ive read some different ways of improving the way the BPI crimps .

[Keith Doty]

Milton, I use that exact hull trimmer, have made mandrels for all the various gauges I shoot 10 thru 20. It works very well, quick and consistent. Just wish I had another source for blades, BPI is proud of them and a sharp blade is a must.

[Keith Doty]

Reloader network 4 pin roll crimp tool IS the best. Now have one for each gauge. I have tried several others and will gladly mail them to anybody that wants to try them, I'll never use them again!

[Milton C Starr]

Milton, I use that exact hull trimmer, have made mandrels for all the various gauges I shoot 10 thru 20. It works very well, quick and consistent. Just wish I had another source for blades, BPI is proud of them and a sharp blade is a must.

Thats the only downside ive read on the hull trimmer is they dont sell new blades. I pulled these loads apart today and noticed in the high velocity loads Winchester only used a 1/4" fiber wad but for the low velocity a 1/2" fiber wad both of these are 2oz loads I believe seemed odd to use such thin wadding for the high velocity load.

[Milton C Starr]

Reloader network 4 pin roll crimp tool IS the best. Now have one for each gauge. I have tried several others and will gladly mail them to anybody that wants to try them, I'll never use them again!

I wish they made it in 8 gauge also, now in the UK there is a 2 pin one sold for the 8 ga but they cant export reloading supplies/equipment.

[Keith Doty]

Blades for that trimmer are available from BPI, bought some recently.

[Milton C Starr]

Blades for that trimmer are available from BPI, bought some recently.


I just ordered about $250 in reloading supplies bought some 10 and 8 gauge components since I saw BPI had 10 gauge hulls back in stock . Ordered a Reloaders Network roll crimper for the 10 ga and some other items. Havnt bought shot yet still deciding what I want to load.

[William Davis]

Thanks, on 10G I use the arbor press too & imperial die wax.

On trimming to length, 16 & 10 have a couple jigs to trim 4 at a time on the bandsaw no reason same thing would not work 8G.

It’s just a wood block with holes, split with a wing nut to tighten. 4 set up run it through the saw using the rip fence. Thing about the twist and cut trimmers my wrist won’t last long twisting. After sawing the case mouth needs conditioning, do it in the drill press with another shop made tool also convertible to 8 G . Will see if I can find a photo to post

William

[William Davis]

Here you go, from idea on the bottom to ones that work best top. Wood insert builds friction and heat faster. Any gauge, have made from 410 to 10, no reason 8 won’t work.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=863&pictureid=11039

William

[Milton C Starr]

Here you go, from idea on the bottom to ones that work best top. Wood insert builds friction and heat faster. Any gauge, have made from 410 to 10, no reason 8 won’t work.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=863&pictureid=11039

William

I was wondering what people were using for conditioning 8 gauge hulls Ive seen homemade skimmers as well made from broadheads. Not sure how short you can go with 8ga loads but I want to say I remember someone making 2 3/4" loads once the case mouth became worn. I only have bluedot on hand so I will have to flip through the manual to see if theres a 1 1/2oz load in there I seen one but it was using clays .

[Milton C Starr]

Thanks, on 10G I use the arbor press too & imperial die wax.

On trimming to length, 16 & 10 have a couple jigs to trim 4 at a time on the bandsaw no reason same thing would not work 8G.

It’s just a wood block with holes, split with a wing nut to tighten. 4 set up run it through the saw using the rip fence. Thing about the twist and cut trimmers my wrist won’t last long twisting. After sawing the case mouth needs conditioning, do it in the drill press with another shop made tool also convertible to 8 G . Will see if I can find a photo to post

William

Ive seen old Lyman dies for 12 and smaller gauges that look just like this 8 ga die, I guess back in the day this was the style used.

[edgarspencer]

I wish they made it in 8 gauge also, now in the UK there is a 2 pin one sold for the 8 ga but they cant export reloading supplies/equipment.

FYI, Milton, Nick Ross (Supplier to The Reloaders Network) has now made an 8ga., 6 pin roll tool. He sent me his first one for testing, and I'm pleased to say it is every bit as good a performer as all his others. The heavier wall Remington hulls roll best, but the thinner Winchester hulls, while not as smooth on the inner rolled edge, are more than satisfactory. The prototype I have is not nitrided, but I would suspect the production tool will be.

[edgarspencer]

I forgot to mention, but as you can see, the Nick Ross 8ga. Roll Crimp tool has SIX pins. The loaded shell shown is a 300gr Fg Blank for my Strong Cannon

[Milton C Starr]

I forgot to mention, but as you can see, the Nick Ross 8ga. Roll Crimp tool has SIX pins. The loaded shell shown is a 300gr Fg Blank for my Strong Cannon

That has to be the best roll crimp I have seen on a 8 gauge hull,If it goes into production I would definitely buy one.

[Joe Plante]

Guys,
Reading through a bunch of the different threads all you guys are discussing and figured you all might be the best resource to answer some of my questions or give me some advice.
I recently came into possession of a large cache (thousands) of Win 8 ga. Industrial loads (mostly #2, some 00, not sure what's the best thing to do with them. I'd like to salvage the lead, primers and powder out of them for my other reloading endeavors (casting for old Winchester 92's and shot pellet dripping, reloading 12 and 20 ga.) but I also don't want to waste the hulls for someone else that could make use of them. There's also the over-shot cards, fiber wads, sleeve hulls and the cup wads that are likely usable to someone.
I've set up a jig on a small craft saw to cut the roll crimp off the end of the hull trying to minimize the amount of loss but not sure if this the best approach. Any suggestions?

Help me out to make sure I don't commit blasphemy in the eyes of all the experts...

[CraigThompson]

Guys,
Reading through a bunch of the different threads all you guys are discussing and figured you all might be the best resource to answer some of my questions or give me some advice.
I recently came into possession of a large cache (thousands) of Win 8 ga. Industrial loads (mostly #2, some 00, not sure what's the best thing to do with them. I'd like to salvage the lead, primers and powder out of them for my other reloading endeavors (casting for old Winchester 92's and shot pellet dripping, reloading 12 and 20 ga.) but I also don't want to waste the hulls for someone else that could make use of them. There's also the over-shot cards, fiber wads, sleeve hulls and the cup wads that are likely usable to someone.
I've set up a jig on a small craft saw to cut the roll crimp off the end of the hull trying to minimize the amount of loss but not sure if this the best approach. Any suggestions?

Help me out to make sure I don't commit blasphemy in the eyes of all the experts...

What you aspire to do isn’t as simple as you might think . Well atleast to do it and not trash the hulls etc . Kinda time consuming actually . I go along with saving the hulls , primers and perhaps the shot (however some of or all of the shot may possibly be zinc based) . But as to the powder I’d pour it on the grass , you can’t be sure exactly what it is so how can you reuse it in handloads . Better to be safe and alive versus overly thrifty and maimed or worse .

[Mike Koneski]

i save odd powders and use them to burn stumps.

[Stan Hoover]

Guys,
Reading through a bunch of the different threads all you guys are discussing and figured you all might be the best resource to answer some of my questions or give me some advice.
I recently came into possession of a large cache (thousands) of Win 8 ga. Industrial loads (mostly #2, some 00, not sure what's the best thing to do with them. I'd like to salvage the lead, primers and powder out of them for my other reloading endeavors (casting for old Winchester 92's and shot pellet dripping, reloading 12 and 20 ga.) but I also don't want to waste the hulls for someone else that could make use of them. There's also the over-shot cards, fiber wads, sleeve hulls and the cup wads that are likely usable to someone.
I've set up a jig on a small craft saw to cut the roll crimp off the end of the hull trying to minimize the amount of loss but not sure if this the best approach. Any suggestions?

Help me out to make sure I don't commit blasphemy in the eyes of all the experts...

Joe,
you may want to hold onto them before taking them apart, I watched a box of 25 Winchester 8 gauge Industrial ammo sell this past Saturday for $650.:shock:

I have most of a case of Winchester Industrial ammo myself, my thought was to tear it down for the hulls, primer and buckshot that it is loaded with, but I'm rethinking that.

Stan

[Joe Plante]

I'd consider selling a large portion of them I guess, don't have an 8 ga. yet myself. I just didn't want to render the hulls unusable to other guys by cutting the roll crimp off during my salvaging operations. I'm cutting into the hull right at the roll so it's literally just the roll that pops off the end.

Where would a guy offload shells like that anyways? I really have no idea about the whole 8 ga. scene, didn't know they existed unitl about a month ago

[Joe Plante]

As far as the powder being unknown, I get that. However, with a potential 60lb haul, determining what the powder is, its characteristics (burn rate, pressure build, density, etc.) is not that difficult to do and would provide me with years worth of usable reloading supply. I've done it many time before and I'll be able to do it in this case, I'm sure.

[CraigThompson]

As far as the powder being unknown, I get that. However, with a potential 60lb haul, determining what the powder is, its characteristics (burn rate, pressure build, density, etc.) is not that difficult to do and would provide me with years worth of usable reloading supply. I've done it many time before and I'll be able to do it in this case, I'm sure.

The powder used in industrial loads most assuredly isn’t the same or same burn rate as what is deemed appropriate for these old doubles . Nice idea but I wouldn’t chance it in any of mine .

[Arthur Shaffer]

I am wondering why you would need a low velocity commercial load. Close sections and fear of kickback? It seems to run counter to why you need an industrial load in the first place. From things I have seen in the European press, they have new shells actually at higher pressures and velocities from the normal industrial loads.

One other thing I found was that after working on a resizing method, and finally getting a few cases to try, I found that my Scott made in 1872 was actually chambered for the 8 gauge industrial shell head. On firing, the front section expands to the same size, and the original hull head fits perfectly. I have had the gun examined by several knowledgeable people (on British guns) and the unaminous opinion is that it is original and pristine. I wondered if anyone else had a British 8 they used and what is it's chamber.

Guess my advice would be, if you don't have a gun yet, don't prep a bunch of expensive cases ahead of time. I wasted a lot of time and money (and several cases).

[Joe Plante]

It sure what you’re talking about ArtS- I’m not reloading for an 8ga. I got my hands on a ton of WW 8ga industrial loads and am salvaging the components out of them. I have no use for the hulls and wads/cards but I know guys do so I want to find out what not to do to render them unusable to the 8ga guys. I don’t want/need them but others might so I don’t want to wreck them

[charlie cleveland]

save those hulls....a box of 25 industrial shells are not that costly I see them on auction sites from time to time....there worth is being able to use the hulls in a 8 ga shotgun for hunting and such...charlie

[Milton C Starr]

Joe,
you may want to hold onto them before taking them apart, I watched a box of 25 Winchester 8 gauge Industrial ammo sell this past Saturday for $650.:shock:

I have most of a case of Winchester Industrial ammo myself, my thought was to tear it down for the hulls, primer and buckshot that it is loaded with, but I'm rethinking that.

Stan

Ive seen a original box of Remington Arrow 8 ga shells go for that price at auction. Id never pay that for industrial loads though the money just isnt there and they arent really that collectible.



When I pull apart industrial loads I just use a flat head screwdriver to unroll the crimp and salvage the hulls since it doesnt damage them. If you cut the crimp off you're probably going to end up with a 2 3/4" 8 gauge hull.

[Joe Plante]

Milton,
Started out trying to un-roll the crimp but took way too much time- I have thousands to get through. That’s why I started zipping the crimp off but my concern was the length and whether I was rendering them useless to guys that might use them- hence the jumping onto this forum, seems like lots of guys that know about loading for these guns

[edgarspencer]

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly so, that the industrial loads were 3 1/4". Wouldn't cutting just the rolled end only shorten them by 3/16" or thereabouts?

A kiln gun is a massive piece of machinery, making me think they might be pretty high pressure.

[CraigThompson]

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly so, that the industrial loads were 3 1/4". Wouldn't cutting just the rolled end only shorten them by 3/16" or thereabouts?

A kiln gun is a massive piece of machinery, making me think they might be pretty high pressure.

Maybe this will shed some light ! https://winchesterindustrial.com/loads.html

[CraigThompson]

FWIW I’m partial to full length 3 1/4” hulls .

[Milton C Starr]

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly so, that the industrial loads were 3 1/4". Wouldn't cutting just the rolled end only shorten them by 3/16" or thereabouts?

A kiln gun is a massive piece of machinery, making me think they might be pretty high pressure.

The high velocity loads are 3oz at 1700 fps and 33k psi I believe. There used to be a guy who built and sold 8 ga industrial single shots on GB for 3k, he used a state arms 50 bmg action since its the only action with a large enough bolt.

[Milton C Starr]

If you have thousands of them I would probably just sell them as is and whoever wants to salvage them can decided how they want to go about taking them apart.

[charlie cleveland]

great idea.....charlie

[Joe Plante]

edgarspencer- here are a few pics of the hulls (loaded and clipped open) Let me know if they don't show up and I'll figure it out. As you can see, my opening up the shell only clips off about 3/16" of the hull, just not sure if this is a bad thing or not.

[Milton C Starr]

I think its going to depend what loads and wads people are using if the length off matters. I think most of the 8 gauge guys are using SP-8 wads. I know with the 1 3/4oz loads I loaded using SP-8 wads I could lop 1/4" off the hulls and still have room, by removing the 1/4" filler wad. Using fiber wads on the other hand you can pretty much configure the stack height to work with a wide variety of hull length and shot weight. So cutting 3/16" off the end wouldn't necessarily ruin the hulls but I think its going to depend on what specific loads 8 gauge guys are shooting.

[Milton C Starr]

I just noticed that one shell looks identical to one I loaded myself with a homemade shotcup. Does it have a sleeve in it ? I have pulled apart some old Winchester Industrial loads that had a shot collar or sleeve in the hull, not really sure why since they were lead loads.

[Joe Plante]

Yes, the #2 kids have a sleeve. Powder, cup, fibre wad, shot and sleeve, overshot card

[Joe Plante]

Mr. Starr thank-you for your response. That is exactly the kind of info I’ve been looking for. If what I’m doing still leaves the hull usable then I literally have thousands of hulls that the 8 ga guys will find useful. Thanks for your input.

[CraigThompson]

Well it’s none of my buisness , HOWEVER ! If a person roll crimps ONLY I think they’d be okay . However many folks like myself fold crimp , SO I want the full 3.25” on a WIN hull and having trimmed some WIN hulls down a bit to try in Edgar’s friend roll crimper WIN hulls thicken up not to far from the mouth . Again roll crimping is fine for most but with WIN hulls I wanna fold and not have to roll like I do with REM hulls .

[Joe Plante]

Good to know, thank-you Sitka.
So, are there guys out there that would want to roll crimp that need hulls and are OK with them being slightly shorter…

[CraigThompson]

Good to know, thank-you Sitka.
So, are there guys out there that would want to roll crimp that need hulls and are OK with them being slightly shorter…

First there’s no T in Sika . Second most folks that use WIN hulls do so because they WILL fold crimp , REM hulls will not they’re to thick to fold well . After you trim let’s say 1/4” you’re pretty much in the same ballpark . I do not like anything that slows the loading process . Heck it’s bad enough loading 8’s on a single stage loader much less adding on the roll crimping part . For my own use the only thing I roll crimp are slugs and buckshot . All my birdshot loads will be fold crimped . You’re talking about a lot of time and effort to salvage the primers and I think most of the shot will be zinc . For time outlay versus selling the loaded shells outright to me it’s a no brainer sell the ammo and buy what you’re after with the proceeds then whomever buys them can do with them as they see fit .

[Joe Plante]

Good to know Sika. I've actually had a fellow on another forum suggest making an inertia hammer to blow the shells open so I'm going to try that. The shot is all lead (as seen in the posted pictures)- I've already ran it through my dripper and made #7 w/ it.

[Joe Plante]

Made an inertia hammer to try- didn't work that well. The overshot card doesn't blow the end of the hull out very well, only unfolds it slightly. As it sits right now, just cutting the very end of the crimp off. I guess if guys are willing/able to use a shortened hull, that's what they'll get

[Joe Plante]

Here's pictures of the various components once shell is disassembled. Shell includes overshot card, shot, sleeve, felt wad, seal cup and powder. About 3 oz. of shot loaded over approx. 28 gns. of powder that has a burn rate real similar to WSF and Herco.

[Joe Plante]

Here's the rest of the pics

[charlie cleveland]

lots of good components in those shells.....ever figure out how much a hull will cost if you decide to sell any...if the price is right I would be a buyer of some of the hulls...charlie

[Joe Plante]

Charlie, I have no use for any of the components other than the lead, powder and primer. Not too sure what the hulls or other components are worth to guys, I’d more rely on guys like you to tell me what a good price is. Regardless, the whole point of me jumping on this forum was to figure out if the stuff was useful to guys and how to salvage the shells to keep it useful. I’ve done my best to keep the hulls as long as possible for reuse by guys, hopefully it is. I understand that there are guys that would only want full length hulls and that’s their business but I’ve had similar instance where “not perfect” is plenty good enough if the price is right. I prefer to shoot my .357 as a .357 but when I guy gave me 3000 rounds of loaded .38 rounds- they shot just fine…

[Joe Plante]

Charlie,
Further to that, I cannot use the classifieds yet and I don’t think I can do PM’s either so not really sure how to put it up for sale at this point. Would like to get rid of it though, just not sure how…?

[charlie cleveland]

join the pga for 40 dollars it will be the best 40 you ever spent and will give you a chance and way to sell your hulls....charlie

[Joe Plante]

Salvaged components from these rounds have been posted for sale under the thread "8 GA. RELOADING COMPONENTS FOR SALE"