Wads and spacers for a short 10 load

[Keith Doty]

I am just venturing into the "Short 10" arena. Got my press and dies issues solved with the help the machine tools at my shop. All good. My question/issue is getting a full enough hull to properly crimp with 1 1/4 oz. of shot. From what I read here everyone has some combination of filler they drop in the shot cup and a number are using an over shot card under the crimp. I'm using BPs PT1044 wad as that's what I can get right now. I had to add 2 1/4"felt spacers in the cup to get shot level up to good crimp height (card over). This half filled the wad with the shot well over the top of it in the hull.
My question for the veterans: Why not use a waxed card filler wad UNDER the wad column? They sealed powder charges pre-plastic wad days just fine. That would leave much more of the shot in the protective column, outta cut deformation some and some lead to barrel contact? Are there any taller base wads available? Answers? Opinions? Experiences?

3 1/2" Cheditte cut to 2 7/8
Cheditte 209 primer
30.2 gr. Longshot (what I had that would work, may not be ideal)
BPI PT1044 wad
2 1/4" felt spacers in cup
1 1/4 oz. #7
1 10 ga. overshot card
6pt. crimp or roll

[Pete Lester]

I am just venturing into the "Short 10" arena. Got my press and dies issues solved with the help the machine tools at my shop. All good. My question/issue is getting a full enough hull to properly crimp with 1 1/4 oz. of shot. From what I read here everyone has some combination of filler they drop in the shot cup and a number are using an over shot card under the crimp. I'm using BPs PT1044 wad as that's what I can get right now. I had to add 2 1/4"felt spacers in the cup to get shot level up to good crimp height (card over). This half filled the wad with the shot well over the top of it in the hull.
My question for the veterans: Why not use a waxed card filler wad UNDER the wad column? They sealed powder charges pre-plastic wad days just fine. That would leave much more of the shot in the protective column, outta cut deformation some and some lead to barrel contact? Are there any taller base wads available? Answers? Opinions? Experiences?

3 1/2" Cheditte cut to 2 7/8
Cheditte 209 primer
30.2 gr. Longshot (what I had that would work, may not be ideal)
BPI PT1044 wad
2 1/4" felt spacers in cup
1 1/4 oz. #7
1 10 ga. overshot card
6pt. crimp or roll

Have you patterned your gun with this load? You most likely will find it patterns just fine as is, all my short 10's do. Your gun was built in an era before plastic shot cups and protective wraps were invented and should be choked accordingly.

[Keith Doty]

Haven't had a chance to shoot any of these, going to the club tomorrow to do so. I was just curious if anybody was using a filler UNDER the wad as opposed to in the cup. If so was interested to hear about the results. I'm sending some of each out for testing Monday. Some roll crimped, some 6 point. Gonna shoot some paper tomorrow to look at patterns.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Hello Keith, I have used a nitro card beneath the wad ,one to take up space,and two to stop powder migration.I have never used a wax filled wad.Might get wax built up on the bore possibly?I also use remington wads.Talking with Tom Armbrust,who I had do some testing for me claims the BP pt1044 wad will raise the pressure higher.There is also an old style and new style sp10 wad.The old style wad has thinner webbing in the crush section than the new wads.Hard to find the old ones ax they got used up.I have a 1 3/8 ounce and 1 1/2 ounce lead load that Tom and I worked up.They are lower pressure with decent velocity.I shoot them in my 1889 Lefever with Damascus barrels.Also have a couple bismuth loads for it.I know the remington wads are hard to find right now..I'm always searching the gun shows for them.

[Mike Koneski]

Keith, I use basically the same recipe except for the powder and shot charge. The fiber wad I use in the bottom of the shot cup is a 1/2" 16g wad. If I load spreaders I will cut it down to 3/8" as the X-Stream spreader insert takes up the equivalent of 1/8 oz of shot so the wad needs to be shorter for a proper crimp. I also use the Remington SP10 wad. Both that and the PT1044 work fine. I pretty much use Unique in my recipes and max shot charge of 1 1/4 oz.

[CraigThompson]

I normally load three different loads for the Short 10 two of them are 1 1/4 ounce and the others 1 1/8 . In all three I use SP-10 wads . Initially I used 16 gauge 1/8 cards in the shot cup . Someone on here made a comment about using Cheerios as a spacer/filler and someone else said they used beans . I was trundling thru the Mexican foods section of the Food Kitty one day and saw bags of red beans so I bought a bag think they were $1.50 . Took them to the shop and put them in my desk drawer still using card wads for spacers and an overshot wad to keep the folded crimp flat (I’m anal like that , I need flat crimps). One day I ran out of cards so I pulled the bag of beans out and tried them . All I can say is it’s a heck of a lot easier and cheaper . I no longer use spacers in the cup or the overshot card for a flat crimp . Cost is less , crimp looks fine and foremost it speeds up the process on the damn single stage loader .

[Milton C Starr]

Sounds like for the short 10 spacers or shot column filler is only needed with plastic wads because with fiber wads and a roll crimp you can just cut the hull down to whatever length you need plus the overhang needed for a proper crimp. I read only about a 1/4" is needed for a roll crimp? I just ordered the 10 gauge manual from BPI hope there are some loads in it that interest me. Id like to recreate these RST 1 1/4oz loads that are 1250fps they shoot alot cleaner than the 1100fps ones.

[Jack Kuzepski]

I got a bag of Polish peanuts (packing material), break them in half and drop the piece on the shot, then crimp the shell. Even if the piece of peanut is a little big, it compresses nicely and crimps nicely as well.

[Mike Koneski]

I normally load three different loads for the Short 10 two of them are 1 1/4 ounce and the others 1 1/8 . In all three I use SP-10 wads . Initially I used 16 gauge 1/8 cards in the shot cup . Someone on here made a comment about using Cheerios as a spacer/filler and someone else said they used beans . I was trundling thru the Mexican foods section of the Food Kitty one day and saw bags of red beans so I bought a bag think they were $1.50 . Took them to the shop and put them in my desk drawer still using card wads for spacers and an overshot wad to keep the folded crimp flat (I’m anal like that , I need flat crimps). One day I ran out of cards so I pulled the bag of beans out and tried them . All I can say is it’s a heck of a lot easier and cheaper . I no longer use spacers in the cup or the overshot card for a flat crimp . Cost is less , crimp looks fine and foremost it speeds up the process on the damn single stage loader .


Craig, if you use the right legumes in your shells you can both shoot clays and plant a warm season food plot.

[Milton C Starr]

So I took apart one of these RST 2 5/8" loads using a mic it looks like you need 1" of wadding or such to bring 1 1/4oz of shot up to where you need it for the roll crimp.Looks like the easiest method would be just use two 1/2" fiber wads . Back in the day didn't they fill the cases with as much wadding as was needed ? Some of these 8 gauge loads only have a single 1/4" fiber wad with 2oz of shot.

[Milton C Starr]

This is basically the idea I had in mind except with a roll crimp.

[CraigThompson]

Craig, if you use the right legumes in your shells you can both shoot clays and plant a warm season food plot.

If I’d have shot your place in the spring you mighta had a red bean crop :rotf:

[CraigThompson]

I got a bag of Polish peanuts (packing material), break them in half and drop the piece on the shot, then crimp the shell. Even if the piece of peanut is a little big, it compresses nicely and crimps nicely as well.

I’m gonna give that a try next week as there are always packing peanuts in a box at the shop . Need to scratch around and find me a nice sharp exacting knife or razor knife .

[Milt Fitterman]

Do the fiber wads you are using as a filler above the over powder card need to be the lubed type. I have a bunch of unlubed fiber and cork wads. Do you think I have to soak them in lube?

[Milton C Starr]

Do the fiber wads you are using as a filler above the over powder card need to be the lubed type. I have a bunch of unlubed fiber and cork wads. Do you think I have to soak them in lube?

Well I have disassembled some 8 and 10 gauge loads the other day to get a better idea of how I want to reload. The 8 gauge loads just had dry fiber wads, the high velocity load which I think is 1700 fps only had a single 1/4" fiber wad which I thought was odd. Talking to cowboy action shooters the wad lube is for making the bores easier to clean after shooting blackpowder not sure if theres a benefit for smokeless?

Is there any reason when trimming 10 gauge hulls to cut them 2 7/8 instead of 2 5/8 ? Looking at these loads I took apart even a 2 5/8 10 gauge needs filler for 1 1/4oz loads. I just dont see the reason for keeping excess length on the hull besides what is need for a crimp ?

[Mike Koneski]

Do the fiber wads you are using as a filler above the over powder card need to be the lubed type. I have a bunch of unlubed fiber and cork wads. Do you think I have to soak them in lube?


Milt, I don’t use the lubed wads. I don’t even use them for my BP loads.

[Milton C Starr]

Milt, I don’t use the lubed wads. I don’t even use them for my BP loads.

My plan is to use two 1/2" wads then the shot column and a overshot card according to my mic this will put a 1 1/4oz payload at the perfect height in a 2 5/8 10 ga load no filler needed for roll crimping anyhow. I was reading someone mentioned the main downside to roll crimped shells being the paper overshot card in wet conditions. I dont see why something like terraslate couldnt be used to make your own waterproof overshot cards.

[Mike Koneski]

Sounds like a plan Milt!

[Milt Fitterman]

My plan is to use two 1/2" wads then the shot column and a overshot card according to my mic this will put a 1 1/4oz payload at the perfect height in a 2 5/8 10 ga load no filler needed for roll crimping anyhow. I was reading someone mentioned the main downside to roll crimped shells being the paper overshot card in wet conditions. I dont see why something like terraslate couldnt be used to make your own waterproof overshot cards.

I recall clear plastic over shot cards available at BPI so I guess it doesn't matter what you use as long as it does not affect the pattern.

[Keith Doty]

I have used the clear plastic overshot cards in 12 ga, work great, can at a glance tell shot size 7 or 8 from 5 or larger. Downside is the plastic litter although have never found a piece big enough to identify. Have not seen them in 10 ga.
I tried some 16 ga x 1/2" fiber wads (untreated) under a shot column in the 10 ga. w/ 1 1/4 oz They didn't "poof" but didn't sound and feel like a full charge round and burned very dirty. Same fiber wad IN the shot cup worked well, got me the same shot height for crimp, burned much cleaner. Have to think the result was a very low pressure round, too low to fully burn the powder. Shot both outta my Ithaca Mag 10 for test purposes, neither would fully operate mechanism, no surprise there.

[Milton C Starr]

I have used the clear plastic overshot cards in 12 ga, work great, can at a glance tell shot size 7 or 8 from 5 or larger. Downside is the plastic litter although have never found a piece big enough to identify. Have not seen them in 10 ga.
I tried some 16 ga x 1/2" fiber wads (untreated) under a shot column in the 10 ga. w/ 1 1/4 oz They didn't "poof" but didn't sound and feel like a full charge round and burned very dirty. Same fiber wad IN the shot cup worked well, got me the same shot height for crimp, burned much cleaner. Have to think the result was a very low pressure round, too low to fully burn the powder. Shot both outta my Ithaca Mag 10 for test purposes, neither would fully operate mechanism, no surprise there.

All the 1100 fps RST loads I have shot are extremely dirty however the 1250fps bismuth load was alot cleaner. Not sure what the pressure difference would be between a 1 1/4 oz at 1100 vs 1250 fps. Their bismuth load was listed as 1 3/8oz but when they started running out of supplies they went to a 1 1/4 which is what I have. I need to look at the load data and see if theres a handload in there that is similar to that.

[CraigThompson]

I’m loading 10 gauge 1 1/4 #7 1/2’s for the summer planting at Rock Mountain , hopefully they’ll provide a good red bean crop :rotf:

[Milton C Starr]

I’m loading 10 gauge 1 1/4 #7 1/2’s for the summer planting at Rock Mountain , hopefully they’ll provide a good red bean crop :rotf:

Looks like you're loading the olive Remington hulls ?

[CraigThompson]

Looks like you're loading the olive Remington hulls ?

Remington and red RST’s .

[Milton C Starr]

Remington and red RST’s .

I had placed a order with BPI last week since they had the Cheddites listed as in stock but my order was canceled 2 days ago for whatever reason. I wanted to load up about 50 dove loads for the 10 ga. At least my order from Precision came in.

[CraigThompson]

RST’s and REM’s same exact load in both . Both look decent both go boom both break or kill birds .

[Milton C Starr]

I used to shoot the Remington ones about 10yrs ago when I had mostly 3.5" 10 gauges used alot of the 2 1/4oz #4 loads for squirrels. Just never see the hulls show up on the reloading market. I will probably ended up getting some Federal hulls to load according to alot of the 10 ga loaders its the best hull if you can buy them.

[charlie cleveland]

nice stuff I really liked the 2 1/4 ounce 10 ga loads squirls did not run off with this load....and a lot of turkeys was took with this load I still have a few boxes squirled away....charlie

[Milton C Starr]

nice stuff I really liked the 2 1/4 ounce 10 ga loads squirls did not run off with this load....and a lot of turkeys was took with this load I still have a few boxes squirled away....charlie

Remington still makes this load Part # 24395 but I dont have any 3.5" guns anymore. Good thing about that load if theres a squirrel on a branch but you cant quite see him you can just blow the branch off the tree :rotf: works pretty good usually stuns them after they hit the ground. My short 10s pattern lead 4s pretty good though even with only 1 1/4oz of shot.

[charlie cleveland]

the 1 1/4 ounce 10 ga load is a favorite of mine...when I was a kid my dad had went to oaklahoma and bought several cases of these old 1 1/4 loads I shot a lot of them up at ducks and crows and even have a box or so I have saved....many old cheap loose 10 ga guns have I fired this load in....I still load this old round from time to time even have the old 57 Remington primers.....charlie

[Milton C Starr]

Well my ReloadersNetwork 4 pin roll crimper came in today.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I had placed a order with BPI last week since they had the Cheddites listed as in stock but my order was canceled 2 days ago for whatever reason. I wanted to load up about 50 dove loads for the 10 ga. At least my order from Precision came in.

I had ordered some hulls and a couple of other things a month ago and they came in 3 days ago, apparently they sold out their inventory 4 weeks ago and just now gort it all shipped out. I'm not sure why they don't stop taking orders when they are fully committed.

[Milton C Starr]

I had ordered some hulls and a couple of other things a month ago and they came in 3 days ago, apparently they sold out their inventory 4 weeks ago and just now gort it all shipped out. I'm not sure why they don't stop taking orders when they are fully committed.

Theyre the only place I have seen large size lead shot when the funds allow I will try placing another other but this time just for shot and see how it goes.
I think this would be the ticket for coyotes in the 8 and 10 ga

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-T-8-lb_jar-200/productinfo/SBK1T/

[charlie cleveland]

good selection....I need to order some....charlie

[Milton C Starr]

good selection....I need to order some....charlie

The guys in the midwest who do alot of predator hunting swear by lead BB to #4 buckshot. T being in the middle seems like a good balance of pattern and knockdown power.

[charlie cleveland]

bb to no 4buckshot is a predetors night mare....charlie

[Arthur Shaffer]

I had ordered some hulls and a couple of other things a month ago and they came in 3 days ago, apparently they sold out their inventory 4 weeks ago and just now gort it all shipped out. I'm not sure why they don't stop taking orders when they are fully committed.

I just checked this evening and they still show the 10 Ga Cheddites as available.

[Keith Doty]

Got some 10 ga. hulls from BP Friday.

[Milton C Starr]

I just checked this evening and they still show the 10 Ga Cheddites as available.

I tried ordering some but after a week they canceled my order I also had like 8 other things in the order perhaps on was out of stock and they canceled the whole order ? I just going to go with Federal hulls there seems to be more data on them and eveyone says if you can use the Federal hull thats the one to go with for the 10 gauge.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I haven't been able to find any Federal hulls available anywhere.

RST does show once fired Cheddites in stock at $50/100. DOn't know the source but the ad reads like a one time thing.

[CraigThompson]

I just going to go with Federal hulls there seems to be more data on them and eveyone says if you can use the Federal hull thats the one to go with for the 10 gauge.
Okay in the first place evidently I’m not part of everyone ! In a four hull 10 gauge race Federal would be third only beating WIN . I prefer REM’s then the RST’s . And yes I’ve used Federals , while I have no issue with them they aren’t my preference . To be honest just use what you can get . I typically put the same basic load in all four brands of hulls . Learn to be adaptable , life’s to short to worry about having only one specific whatever when a whole bunch of different things can be used in the same capacity .

[Pete Lester]

Okay in the first place evidently I’m not part of everyone ! In a four hull 10 gauge race Federal would be third only beating WIN . I prefer REM’s then the RST’s . And yes I’ve used Federals , while I have no issue with them they aren’t my preference . To be honest just use what you can get . I typically put the same basic load in all four brands of hulls . Learn to be adaptable , life’s to short to worry about having only one specific whatever when a whole bunch of different things can be used in the same capacity .

The older RST 10ga hulls, (brown) were Federals, the newer RST hulls (red) are Cheddites. If you are using a MEC single stage that uses a resizing ring on the deprime station Federals take much less effort to resize because the they have a brass head whereas the others have steel heads. That is most likely a reason many people prefer Federal hulls.

[Milton C Starr]

Okay in the first place evidently I’m not part of everyone ! In a four hull 10 gauge race Federal would be third only beating WIN . I prefer REM’s then the RST’s . And yes I’ve used Federals , while I have no issue with them they aren’t my preference . To be honest just use what you can get . I typically put the same basic load in all four brands of hulls . Learn to be adaptable , life’s to short to worry about having only one specific whatever when a whole bunch of different things can be used in the same capacity .

There is a load that interest me particularly its a 1.5oz load @ 1150 fps 8300 psi I believe its the 24th load up from the bottom on page 2. I would like to try that in my 6 frame . There is also a 1.5oz bismuth load for bluedot at 7900 psi both of these show a lower pressure than the data I see for a 1 1/4 @ 1250fps bismuth load which is what RST sent me.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Well. I loaded 10 shells today to get my feet wet in 10 ga. I cut 10 new Cheddites to 2-5/8" using a piece of copper slipfit repair pipe, a 3/4" oak dowel and a sharp knife. took less than 5 minutes and perfectly square.

I wanted to use everybodies standard light load of 19 gr Red Dot, 1-1/8oz shot. Using the BP 10 ga plastic shotcup wad, I cut off about half the shotcup. Using hand tools, I dropped in the powder, seted the wad, and dropped in 1/8 oz of 8's. I needed a minimum of 3/4" of filler to think about a roll crimp. I didn't have any thick smallbore wads, and it would have taken a whole bag of card wads to load a few shells. I remembered the bean idea from this thread and decided to try that. I dumped the shot, dropped in the same volume of beans, then redropped the shot. Things looked about right, but then I got to thinking about the beans. They had seemed heavy when I dropped them so I weighed them (red beans) followed by an equal load of small navy beans. They both weighed 4.5 grams. The 1-1/8 oz shot load is 32 grams. It turned out that the
beans added 14 % to the shot load. That bothers me. I actually was going to use 18 g instead of 19 for the Red Dot,but still if you look at loading data for light 12 ga loads as an example, the difference in pressure is really significant in going from 1 to 1-1/8 oz or 7/8 to 1 oz. Not dangerous in the light load range but certaibly enough to move them into normal pressure ranges. I suspect if the whole reason of this is to use low pressure loads in old guns, the bean method may be negating the benefit.

I ended up using cream of wheat instead of the beans. The same volume of cream of wheat weighed 3.5 grams and provided more filling since the shot didn't settle into the beans. I dropped the shot load to 1 oz for safety, and the hulls roll crimped beautifully using a hand held two speed driver drill and a new BPI single roller crimper. I put one drop of Teflon gun lubricator on the crimper and it heated right up and did a great job.

I guess my question is if anyone has had pressure testing done on duplicate loadings with and without heavy fillers like beans or large stacks of cards.

When I ever get my gun back together I think the logical thing to do is cut the shells to around 2" so that a short shot cup and thenstandard light load will fit with a roll crimp. I think I will do a duplicate loading in a 2-5/8" shell with the bean filler and have the two loads ballistically tested. Maybe throw in a third load with styrofoam beads of pieces to see what the actual weight effect is. I think it may be significant.

I think the best system would be to load heavy loads in the 2-5/8" cases, then when the mouths wear out, cut them again to 2" and use for light loads.

[Will Penny]

I know that you can raise wad height with wads under the shot cup my 10 mag load uses 1/2" of nitro cards under the cup. I have Gram Bells reloading manual for double rifles and he lists using dehidrated bean flakes as a filler, they probably weigh less and would not interfere with shot patterns I wonder if that is where the bean filler idea came from? Also you do need a nitro card to be over the powder fillers are not stiff enough to contain pressures and you end up with blown patterns and inconsistant loads. Please ignore the spelling.