The Fit of Shotgun Stocks.....1909

[Dave Suponski]

This was sent to me by Dave Noreen(Researcher) some food for thought about those guns with too much drop.If you left click on the picture and "Open in new tab it is much easier to read.

[Drew Hause]

More interesting reading
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_322dfv7jpff

[Ed Blake]

4" of drop! He must have been a giraffe.

[Bill Murphy]

Drew, that is one great bunch of pictures of guys and girls who don't shoot out of the middle of their glasses. I have never shot out of the middle of my lenses and can't figure out how I ever could. It is an anatomical impossibility for most of us unless we are willing to put up with the recoil of a stock with four inches of drop. By the way Drew and Dave, what make of gun was Mr. Fox shooting? I have seen a few four inch guns and a few orders for four inch guns in the Parker Brothers records. In my youth, hunting in Southeast Pennsylvania for pheasants over good setters and mallards at dusk and after dark , it really didn't matter whether the gun had a stock or not. However, when shooting quail in heavy cover in Southern Maryland during the same era, stock fit became quite an issue and I crawled the stock and tilted my head, and have done so for the rest of my shooting life.

[Drew Hause]

Bill, it seems that all four fellas are mounting the same gun; which is certainly a boxlock with 'Parkerish' lines to the receiver. The original article might have better resolution. If the gun is indeed as illlustrated in Fig. 1 it could be an Ithaca.

[Brad Bachelder]

Stock Drop is dependent on shooting style. Two basic styles are recognized in stock fitting considerations. Open faced or closed face. Europeans tend to shoot open faced ,or "heads up" simply touching the comb with the chin. Americans tend to shoot closed face, cheek firmly on the comb. The majority of the shooting schools teach open faced shooting, it is a faster target acqusition. The above pictures are examples of open faced. Early
English and American stocks tend to have excessive drop by modern standards. Cast off or cast on as well as twist, were seldom considered in early firearms. Ventilated or raised ribs not only helped with heat dispersal, but also created a dependence on sighting plane. Instinctive shooters seldom if ever see the bead, they mount and shoot. For us non-instinctive shooters we rely on the bead or beads for mount confirmation.
Bottom line is , if you choose to shoot early dimensioned guns, you need to shoot Open Faced and ignore the beads.

Brad

[Drew Hause]

Or 'crawl the stock' as Mr Fox (who is 6' 4 1/2") is doing in Fig. 5. Looks like his nose is forward of his right thumb :)

[Ed Blake]

I'd like to hear more about open and closed-faced shooting styles. In my attempts to shoot Parkers with 3" of DAH I assume I have adopted an "open" faced shooting style in order to see over the back of the receiver by keeping my head up. This results in a tendency to pick my head up off the stock. I would think an open-faced style of shooting with a gun of modern dimensions would be difficult. Apologies for hi-jacking this thread.

[Drew Hause]

"Modern Shotgun Shooting" by Lawrence B. Smith, 1935

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/389685597.jpg

A.B. Frost "Prairie Chicken Shooting" 1895 Head down American wingshooting

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/389143469.jpg

Capt. Bogardus 'crawling the stock' breaking 1000/1037 glass balls June 1878

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/389646861.jpg

Crawling the stock 2008 Olympics

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/382983386.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Many of Drews examples were certainly not heads up shooters, even in the early days. In addition to the high stock dimensions mentioned in Drew's study of recorded stock dimensions, Annie Oakley used very high dimension stocks both in her Lancaster and her Parker guns, suggesting that she shot with her cheek firmly buried on the comb. IN MY OPINION, open faced shooting style is best used with fairly open bored guns and when hitting all the marks shot at is not imperative for success. Examples would be when the targets are quite numerous and the easy ones can be shot at and the difficult ones passed up. Another example is shooting for no money. Again, in my opinion, closed face or cheek to stock style became popular when people started shooting for money and had to hit all the targets shot at and when wild game birds and fowl became less numerous. Drew mentions the case of Baron Wallingham (or whomever) who shot thousands of driven grouse with cylinder bored guns.

[Dave Noreen]

It appears to me from the pictures in the article that the Mr. Sereck R. Fox had his 4- and 4 1/4 -inch drop guns built by the A.H. Fox Gun Co.

Lon B. Smith, of a later time, shot NID model Ithacas of rather extreme stock style --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/MonteCarloNIDs.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Turn-of-the-century British gunners shot 'heads up'; American wingshooters and trap shooters mostly 'head down.' Interesting that the American team with their Parkers and Smiths kicked British behind big time in the 1901 Anglo-American match. The London pundits blamed this on the fact that the Yanks were only 'trick shots' and the disadvantage of the Brits having to use BOTH barrels :rotf:

The Country Life (London)
When it goes forth to the world that the Americans have beaten the Englishmen, in a team match of ten shooters each, in three test matches, and the Americans did this with one barrel, whereas the Englishmen used two, the prestige of this country will not be improved as a shooting nation. In one sense it will suffer rightly enough; in another, it will be a quite unfair inference. In watching the performance of the Americans, good shots that they are, the writer could only feel that if it were necessary to shoot in that style, it would be better to give up shooting altogether.
A good game shooter would not consider that his ability was tested in its most important points when the game always rose at one spot in front of him, in the way it did in this Anglo-American competition. Even when several rises are used, as they are occasionally under the system called ‘unknown traps and angles,’ the limitation of rise and of angle is too great to be considered first rate practice for game shooting.
At clay bird competitions, and for winning under present rules, the choke-bore and the pigeon guns and loads are the most effective by far. The Americans go to extremes because their object is to break clays. We bolt between two minds and get beaten by the Americans because we do not go to extremes; and we frighten away English sportsmen because we go toward trick shooting half-way, which is further than real game shots go.
It is impossible to agree that the (Americans) would necessarily be good game shots, or that they could even break clays if the rules of sport were present in the conditions.

W.R. Crosby with his Smith then defeated the Scottish champion shot, Faulds, at Glasgow, Scotland. Each shot at 100 pigeons from ground traps and 50 pigeons from tower traps. Crosby scored 139 to Faulds’ 134.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_15/SL3715020.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_15/SL3715021.pdf

More about 1/2 way down here http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_309ckt6hmd4

[Richard Flanders]

The reason for those drastic Ithaca combs seem obvious to me. The shooter wants to shoot with his head up but does not want to just touch his chin to the stock; he wants his cheek to be against something, so they just raise the comb and get the best of both worlds. He doesn't have to cram his head down on the stock and peek out the corner of his eye. He has an upright head, Churchill style, yet has a good consistent cheek rest.

I think that this concept of "modern dimensions" in shotgun stocks, as if shotguns have undergone some Darwinian evolution process that has rendered them better is off the mark. Seems the old guys with their 3"-4" drops shot high scores and won championships. I think it's the shooter not the gun that wins at this game and that any skillful shooter can likely adjust, within reason, to most any stock if they pay attention to the details of what works and what doesn't and is willing and able to adjust methodology to match a stock dimension. I've become more comfortable with stocks with 2-3/4"-3" drop and now have to make sure I blank the bird on rising shots and straight on high incomers. No problem; I just have to make sure I do it and down they come. If someone hands me a flat stocked trap gun, as someone did in Denver last winter, I can shoot while I can still see the bird. It's up to me, not the gun. Will I be burned at the stake for this opinion???:eek:

Murphy might be on to something also, with the changing to having to hit them all to win. Could be that the blanking of the small fast clay targets method used with a stock with lots of drop could cause misses, that's it's better to always be able to see and track the bird... and with a clay, the bird is much smaller than a pheasant... so flatter stocks improved scores in what has become a highly competitive game.

[Drew Hause]

The dimensions of the Smith Fred Gilbert used to win the Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament given by the E. I. Du Pont De Nemours & Co. in 1895 and the “E.C.” Inanimate Target Championship held at the Guttenburg, New Jersey racetrack in 1896 were:
Drop at comb, 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.

"Modern" by any measure :)

[Richard Flanders]

I can see that Drew. I can imagine with those small fast birds you never want them out of sight for even a tiny fraction of a second. You have to also consider how the shooter is put together... long or short neck, etc.

[Brad Bachelder]

When shooting "open faced" style, two stock fit dimensions become very important. Cast on or off, degree of pitch. Cast regulates windage and pitch regulates elevation. To test the point of impact one needs to use a pattern board. Raise the gun, touch the stock with your chin, aim dead on with the front bead. If your pattern is right of the desired point of impact, cast on will move the pattern left. If your pattern is too high, bringing the pitch in will drop the barrels, lowering your pattern.
Every shooter has a natural instinctive anchor point when mounting the gun.
This is the point that you most often place the gun upon mounting. A simple way to test your gun fit is to use a mirror. With an unloaded gun, stand in front of the mirror. Close your eyes and mount the gun. With your eyes closed you will avoid steering the gun and mount it naturally. Where are the barrels ? Right, left, or up or down. This will help you begin to understand what if any adjustments need to be made.

Brad

[Dave Suponski]

Actually I agree with Rich and Brad. I shoot high stocked Parker trap and skeet guns as well as a couple of field guns with 3" of drop. For me I need to remember what gun I am shooting and adjust accordingly. For years my go to grouse and woodcock gun was a PH 26" 16 gauge with 3" of drop. That gun was remarkable. Just touch it to your shoulder and pull the trigger.You didn't need to worry about getting down on the gun.I just shot head up and it really was real fast on target acquisition. I still take it out on occasion but Really need to remember what gun it is because as of late I have been using guns with 2 1/2" of drop.

This thread is very interesting as I had hoped it would be!

[Austin W Hogan]

I thought I should put on one of my old physicist's plaid bow ties to address this. Field of view is measured in units of steradians. Big word but simple concept. Imagine that you were looking at a bird in a tree through an opening in the woods. The bird is 100 feet away. If you have a clear view that is 50 feet each side of the bird and 50 feet above and below the bird your field of view is one steradian; that is the 100 foot sides of the field are equal to the distance.
At 16 yard trap you watch for the bird in about a 6 foot box 48 feet away - 1/8 of a steradian ; its a cinch to find the bird over the rib of a mounted gun.
At skeet you can watch a box about 12 feet long at 60 to 120 feet; 1/5 to 1/10 of a steradian; the incomer in doubles is in a 10 x 10 foot box at about 50 feet.
Live birds came from many traps in the beginning and fewer as time went on. However a longer handicap reduced the size of the field to be watched. for the bird's release.
At five stand or sporting clays you may see the trap that launches the first bird but you must recover and find the second in most cases. Target acquisition is a big factor in hitting the second bird.
Take a walk through the grouse woods; wing noise may give you a strereo phonic direction to look in but it is necessary to examine more than a full steradian to find the bird; a mounted gun obscures fully one half of that field.
Two years ago at Hausmann's JD and I shot a round together. One station was an outgoing crosser visible only through a small clear patch. I broke the bird twice , before the gun reached my shoulder; JD's comment; "I know you learned to shoot in partridge country". I think I have 12 PGCA witnesses that will verify that I broke simo pairs from station 8 on both rounds at our New Year shoot. I got both incomers before the butt touched my shoulder. I would like to add that the gun I used on both occassions was choked M & F
This is long enough; more on dimensions later.

Best Austin

[Austin W Hogan]

It would seem that, if the shooter knows the 1/4 or less steradian of the sky where the bird will appear, then the gun can align the shooter for the shot. If the target is in an unknown steradian or more of the sky, the shooter must first find the bird and then align the gun to it.
It has been my experience that the big field is best searched and the target hit, with this combination;
Long barrel (30 in plus)
Splinter Fore end, with index finger between the barrels.
Pistol grip to allow the trigger finger to be parallel with the barrel during mount
A monte carlo comb that prevents a mount that places the breech end of the rib above the eye.
Sufficient drop at heel to allow the head to remain erect.

Best Austin

[Richard Flanders]

Good stuff Austin. R Churchill talks about the hitting a target before the butt hits the shoulder issue in his book. If you use your left/leading hand correctly to 'point' the gun you are capable of hitting targets before the butt seats. He used that as a demonstration during instruction.

One thing no one has mentioned as of yet is the difference in how the shooter is put together... long neck, large head, long arms, etc, and how it makes a difference in how a gun fits. For me, with a gun with 3" of drop and just over 14" LOP, when I shoot "open faced" or head upright as I prefer, when I bring the gun up it is NOT just my chin that touches the stock. The comb nests just nicely against my cheek and I'm looking straight down the rib. I don't need an added comb to make a nice rest for the cheek. My cheek isn't mashed against the stock like Drew's olympic shooter; it's just comfortably nestled, and I'm looking straight out the middle of my glasses and NOT through the greasy upper left-hand corner as I would be if I had to jam my head down onto a much flatter stock.

[Dean Romig]

Richard, That's exactly the way I prefer to shoot game - head erect and bring the gun to my line of vision, never having to take my eye away from the bird's line of flight, whether feathered of clay.

[charlie cleveland]

im gonna hafta get some body to watch me shoot..sice you fellas been talking about this i never had thought about the way i shoot...now ive gotta know... charlie

[John Dallas]

I dunno Charlie - From my experience, a little knowledge can be dangerous. I have several friends who went thru extensive gun fitting sessions, and walked away with a slip of paper which had the gunfitter's equivalent of the holy grail.
From that day forward, they were convinced that they could never shoot a gun whose dimensions were even 1/16" off of the numbers on the paper. Totally screwed them up. Pick up the gun and shoot it!

[David Holes]

I agree. Have a friend years ago went to Bishops and had his shotgun custom fitted with a new stock. Spent 2-3 days down there getting everything just perfect. Shot the gun the first year extremely well. After a winter layoff he never could shoot that gun well again. I personally like different stock dims. for different games. trap 2.25- skeet 2.5 - sporting clays 2.75. My hunting guns can have up to 3 inches of drop.

[Bill Murphy]

Drop at heel is about the most unimportant stock dimension of the four or five that are usually supplied to a stockmaker. About the only thing it may affect is recoil perceived at the face.

[Brad Bachelder]

Shooting instruction and subsequent try-gun fitting are only sucessful if the shooter retains all of the instruction and consistantly repeats it, most of us don't. In time we seem to fall back to our individual way of shooting, the old habits are hard to break. The dog and pony show that most fitters use is amusing but seldom totally effective. I personally subscribe to fitting the gun to the shooter rather than the shooter to the gun.
In closed-face shooting, which is how most shooters mount, length of pull and pitch angle, establish a level plane for the barrels. Cast and twist are critical to centering windage. If you can eliminate the post-mount adjustments that shooters routinely do, it is much easier to concentrate on the Bird. Build off your instinctive anchor point and the gun will consistantly shoulder to the proper point of aim. Your speed and hit ratio will increase greatly.

Brad

[Richard Flanders]

The only way I improved my shooting after decades of rarely hitting anything flying was to read the Churchill shotgun book, buy into his system and do exactly as he said. It worked and my shooting improved dramatically. Now I have a "system" to go back to, a page 1 so to speak. When I start missing, I stop and go back to the system and remember where my feet are supposed to be, my left hand, light grip with the right hand, upright head, don't stop the swing, don't jerk the trigger, keep both eyes open, etc, and I immediately start hitting again. It works every time. It's no different than forgetting a good bird recipe and having to open the cook book to find it and follow it exactly if that what has worked in the past. I know a number of shooters who say they have no idea what they do, how they shoot. Good for them; perhaps they're good natural shooters. Me, I'm a good instinctive and natural pilot-no problem.... but, with shotguns, I need a "system" to consult which will get me back on track when I'm missing. I suspect a lot of people who are inconsistent in shooting could use the same thing.