SO HERE IS A WEIRD ONE

[Stephen Hodges]

This GH is advertised on GB at this time. I have no connection to it. The seller is very clear that the barrels are Damascus, not Titanic Steel. I wonder why someone would make this change to the barrels? He also points out that someone added a number "2" to the serial number.

[Stephen Hodges]

One more pic

[Jay Oliver]

After going through all of that "effort" you think they would have blued the barrels to really hide that fact that it was damascus. It is an interesting piece of history...the lengths someone would go to cover up "dangerous" damascus barrels...

[Drew Hause]

Better job than this 'Vulcan' over 'Damascus'

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-89s3q5d/0/43d10f1a/S/Vulcan%20over%20Damascus-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-89s3q5d/A)

[Dave Noreen]

I suspect those barrels were blued at one time and some time since wer properly finished.

[Dean Romig]

I suspect those barrels were blued at one time and some time since wer properly finished.

And surprise, surprise… they’re really Damascus. :shock:





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[Brian Dudley]

I am thinking the same thing as Dave. Someone faked it at one time and they have since been refinished properly. But the rim legend change left.

[Richard Flanders]

The roll stamp on the rib is screwy also. There's too much space between the T and the A. ie: TIT ANIC. Gorgeous damascus pattern though; I'd be bragging about that one if it were mine! Seems a lot of G grades got really nice damascus barrels and wood.

[Dean Romig]

Right Richard. In fact, a lot of GH’s got D4 barrels, the subject gun having D3.

I can’t remember ever seeing D5 barrels on any Parker and the D6 barrels were usually stamped DD which are most often seen on BH and higher guns.





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[Dean Romig]

Actually the gun shouldn’t even be for sale with an obvious and provable altered serial number.





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[Richard Flanders]

So, Dean, here's shots of my GHE12 and DH12. What grade are these?

[Dean Romig]

D4 Richard, or 4-iron crolle.

It's easier to see on the right barrel - there are three full crolles between the light weld lines but there is a half crolle up against each weld line that combined account for another full crolle, equalling 4.





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[Richard Flanders]

On both guns?

[keavin nelson]

Dean, what does "crolle" mean? Possibly french for ?

[Drew Hause]

Crolle - Crull - Crullen - Curlen are Middle English words that appear in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales written c. 1386 -
“And his lokkes buth noght so crolle…” and a young Squier with locks as “crulle as they were laid in presse.”

In Danish, krolle; Swedish, krulla; French, s'enrouler; German, rolle
“To form into coils or ringlets. Twist.”

“Crolle” was used in reference to damascus barrels in Liege and England by at least the 1880s.

Reading crolle patterns
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMmG-80ZUWwiLDbjBNk-wiOdDxKrhQL6jMNs5L2XVfc/edit

Richard's GHE is D3 - the 'scrolls' are larger and there are 2 'zipper' welds down the middle of the scrolls in between 2 straight ribband edge welds.

[Bill Murphy]

What is this gun's gunbroker item number?

[Randy G Roberts]

Bill I saw it on GI although it may be on GB as well.

Guns International #: 101767701

[Reggie Bishop]

It is listed on Guns International.

[Craig Budgeon]

I can think of 4 businesses that may have had access to a Titanic roll stamp. The alterations I believe were carried out before Peter Johnson's book. How many laymen would have known that gun was a fake before 1960?

[Bill Murphy]

One would not need to read Johnson's book to recognize that rendering of "Titanic" as an alteration of the factory marking. There was a great wealth of Parker knowledge in the years before Johnson's book was published.

[Craig Budgeon]

Bill many people would look at the cold blued Titanic and accept it as factory back in the day. I suppose Bernard steel would have been more believable. The nitro proofs raise a red flag and how about that serial which exceeds Parker production by more than 30,000. Peter Johnson may not have been the most knowledgeable Parker collector but he cultivated a great deal of interest in Parkers and American doubles in general for having taken the time to write the book.

[Chuck Bishop]

Richard, the GHE is more likely 3 iron crolle. If you can see the dividing line that splits a crolle, follow it to the next dividing line. Count the full crolles and 2 split crolles and you have your total. The dividing lines are sometimes hard to see but the lower DH is easily seen.

[Keith Doty]

The altered serial number intrigues me. WHY? Isn't that a big issue with ATF?

[Bill Murphy]

Pre 1899 serial number, ATF does not consider this a gun. You can stamp what you want on it.

[Brian Hornacek]

Is this the gun that someone stamped nitro proof on the barrel flat?

[Jim DiSpagno]

Yes Brian.

[Craig Budgeon]

The gun is unique though as it is the only double gun I can remember that only has 1 barrel nitro proofed.

[Jerry Harlow]

One would not need to read Johnson's book to recognize that rendering of "Titanic" as an alteration of the factory marking. There was a great wealth of Parker knowledge in the years before Johnson's book was published.

So how does someone restamp TITANIC over DAMASCUS that has been removed, yet one can still see the Damascus pattern in the rib below the roll stamp with no evidence of filing/grinding and welding up? Isn't it just possible that it was a rare mistake?

[Phillip Carr]

Jerry you have a point there. Although with all of the other unusual markings I tend to agree something not so straight up took place on this gun.
SN is 27404 which was made in 1882. When did Titanic steel barrels come out?

[Dean Romig]

74842

Titanic barrels were first introduced in 1897 I believe.





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[Bill Murphy]

As Elmer Keith said in his book title, "Hell, I was there.". In the fifties and sixties, there were many gunsmiths who had little expectation of knowledge in their customers. The truth was that the gunsmiths were not even as bright as their dullest customers. These faked up guns didn't sell for any more than the original Damascus iteration, $75.00 to $100.00. All that work for little or no profit. At least the gun in question was partially brought back without any damage to the barrels except the rib legend. Any fool, 1955 or 2021, could see that the "Titanic" stamp is a sloppy fake job, not from the factory. In the pre Johnson days, none of these faked up guns fooled anyone. I don't know where they are today, but in 1960, they were a dime a dozen and for sale at every gun show. Usually, a nice clean example would be offered for $100 to $125. I doubt that the gun would actually change hands for that much cash. A nice, clean, original Vulcan steel VH 12 would sell for about $125 also. Where is the profit for the faker after all that effort?

[Garth Gustafson]

Here are a couple of 12 ga DHEs in “excellent condition” offered for sale in Shotgun News, September 1968. $875 in 1968 equates to $6,723 today. Always interesting to see what these fine old guns listed for back in the day.

[Dean Romig]

Very interesting blurb on that CHE Double Trap.
There were only 3 known to have been made with those features especially the 30” barrels. When mine turned up in 2003 it became the 4th known (230760) in that configuration. I sold mine in 2007 for exactly 10x the asking price in this 1968 ad.





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[Steve Huffman]

Very interesting blurb on that CHE Double Trap.
There were only 3 known to have been made with those features especially the 30” barrels. When mine turned up in 2003 it became the 4th known (230760) in that configuration. I sold mine in 2007 for exactly 10x the asking price in this 1968 ad.





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Did you report the gains on your taxes that year ya never know whos watching

[Craig Budgeon]

In 1968 $25 would have been the equivalent of 8 hours pay for many in the middle class.

[AndrewFrank]

I have a GH Parker with a faked rib stamping as well. I ordered it using cabelas points so I have no actual money into the gun, and it fit well so I kept it. Mine letters to 1891 and was originally damascus steel. I don’t know when but it was sleeved, restocked and re-case hardened the receiver. They also ground off damascus and engraved “spec steel” it’s a good shooter but that’s about it.

[Dave Noreen]

Very interesting blurb on that CHE Double Trap.
There were only 3 known to have been made with those features especially the 30” barrels. When mine turned up in 2003 it became the 4th known (230760) in that configuration. I sold mine in 2007 for exactly 10x the asking price in this 1968 ad.
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It is a lot easier for me to come up with $8500 today than it would have been to come up with $850 in 1968. In early 1972 I got a $500 signature loan at the credit union to buy a gun.

[Bill Murphy]

That "Parker Special Steel" marking is really nice. I don't know what else to say except that we would like to see some pictures of the rest of the gun, monobloc line, barrel flat, serial number. Is it really Damascus?

[AndrewFrank]

The barrels are sleeved so no damascus pattern, under heavy magnification you can see the pattern on the monoblock. Serial number is 59909 and my Parker letter says damascus.

[Dean Romig]

Did you report the gains on your taxes that year ya never know whos watching


Sure did!




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[Craig Budgeon]

The IRS will be pleased with your response, Dean!

[Bob Brown]

I wouldn't mind claiming my gains on my gun buys if they let me write off the losses on the rest of them. I'd probably come out way ahead.

[Keith Doty]

Amen to that!

[John Allen]

There were 2 dealers in the late 1960s and early 70s who have since passed away who made a living out of faking Parkers. Their work was much better than the ones shown here but they did the same thing. Bought damascus and lower grade guns and turning them into Parker special steel or titanic steel marked guns. They sold many of them at the old Las Vagas show for what then was big money.I still run into a few of them today.