A "New" Muzzleloading SxS

[Jay Oliver]

A recent auction find, a Samuel Henry Staudenmayer percussion sxs 20 gauge with 32” barrels. Staudenmayer started out as an apprentice to John Manton(Joeseph Manton’s older brother). The date on this would be sometime from 1800 to early 1830s.

What attracted me to this was that it was either converted from flintlock to percussion or was a very early percussion gun. The width of the stock head around the locks makes me think this may have started out as a flintlock. The bores are in real nice l shape. This is useable as is in my opinion with square black powder loads.

If I can confirm it was originally a flintlock, I will have it converted back to a flintlock. I had a wonderful hunt last year at Markover in Connecticut with a percussion sxs in the morning and flintlock fowler in the afternoon. My dog didn’t mind the extra noise and I enjoyed the historical aspect of muzzleloader hunting. The percussion sxs is just like shooting a modern gun once you figure out a good load. The flintlock was a little more challenging, I was using a single shot fowler. The gun worked beautifully, but I kept rushing my first and only shot...

I will get this one back into the field this season…

[Rick Losey]

tough call from the pics

but I am guessing built as early percussion simply because I don't see signs of a frizzen spring having been on the lock plate- and the hook breach looks like its been there right along

of course, it is possible that could be a sign of the converting gunsmiths skills - but i'd still go with my first bet

in any case - really nice find - its fun to make smoke with the old pieces

[Jay Oliver]

Thanks Rick, I probably am being a little to optimistic that it may have been originally a flintlock. It really doesn't matter as I am excited about it and can't wait to shoot it.

The wide stock near the breach and trigger guard is very similar to some other early 1800s flintlocks I had seen. And it looks like the breach blocks may have been milled for the drums. I would imagine though, when percussion locks/caps first were developed they were fitted to what would have be flintlock guns.

I am going try an break a few targets with this one over the weekend...

[Matt Buckley]

Nice one Jay. It is fun to bring these old muzzleloaders back into service. Think about the fact this gun could easily be 200 years old. Amazing in my mind.

[Jim Beilke]

It may well have been a flintlock as noted by the drum and nipple means of ignition. That was a common means of conversion from flintlock to percussion lock. Had it originally been a percussion they would probably have used a patent breech in which the fire from the cap would go directly into the shotgun chamber as opposed to making a right angle turn as in the drum and nipple. Patent breech ignition is a fair amount faster and often more reliable

[Jay Oliver]

Matt, if you saw these bores you would be amazed, silver and shiny for the most part. Staudenmayer died in 1834 so it is at least 187 years old. He is probably better known for his airguns at the time. He also made some flintlock pistols and single barrel rifles/fowlers.

I'll post some pictures/video when I shoot it :)

[charlie cleveland]

I bet she shoots just fine...charlie

[Stan Hillis]

That's a beauty, Jay. 32" smallbores are lovely, regardless the type ignition. Please grace us with some more pics later.

[CraigThompson]

I’ve got a double MacFarlane 10 gauge we’ve had for about twenty years . I worked up okay buckshot loads with it but had a hard time keeping the overshot card tight in the second barrel after the first shot . I also worked towards a slug in one barrel but I couldn’t get POA and POI at 30 yards to be close . I went as high as 90 or so grains of 777 2Fg . I had to stop that endeavor as my shoulder was growing a permenant knot from the recoil . The slugs were 730 grains . I shot it a couple times with 1 1/2 ounces of shot and it broke targets well enough but I never was comfortable with the overshot card staying put in the left after firing the right .

[Jay Oliver]

Craig, I ordered some 18 gauge overshot cards and wads from Track of the Wolf as 20 gauge cards/wads didn't feel quite tight enough. There is definitely some variation in bore sizes in these older guns. My only recommendation is to try 9 or 8 gauge cards/wads in your gun if you haven't already.

[Daryl Hallquist]

I use .125" thick over shot wads, sized to the next size larger than my bore. They work well in retaining the left barrel load after firing the right barrel..

[CraigThompson]

Craig, I ordered some 18 gauge overshot cards and wads from Track of the Wolf as 20 gauge cards/wads didn't feel quite tight enough. There is definitely some variation in bore sizes in these older guns. My only recommendation is to try 9 or 8 gauge cards/wads in your gun if you haven't already.

When I played with that 10 gauge I didn’t own an 8 but now I do and have all kinds of stuff . So I might give the 8 gauge over shot and nitro cards a try .

[CraigThompson]

Muzzleloader season will be here in a couple weeks 😉👍🏻

[CraigThompson]

I’ve got other 8 gauge wads but I stumbled across these today in a drawer I forgot I had !

[CraigThompson]

By no means is my MacFarlane of the same quality as the little gun this threads about , but here’s my boat anchor just the same .

[George Davis]

Ben Avery the Arizona Fish and Game Range in metro Phoenix has a group 1 day month which shoots skeet with muzzleloaders. It's fun just go and observe, however it takes some time to complete each round.
PS: You'll see some very interesting guns.

[Jay Oliver]

I enjoy shooting these old muzzleloading sxs shotguns more and more. I did the muzzleloading event at the Southern this past spring for the first time and it was wonderful. I learned alot too. Will do it again for sure next year.

I amazed at how nice the locks are on many of them as well. Very easy to go from half cock to full cock when hunting with one thumb on two hammers.

There are some great deals/values on these guns as well. Not as much demand in my opinion...

[Dennis E. Jones]

I believe I'm seeing plugged holes in the left lock plate that indicate it was a flintlock when made. But again maybe I'm just wishing. At any rate a wonderful shotgun, one that anyone would be proud of.

[Stan Hillis]

Ben Avery the Arizona Fish and Game Range in metro Phoenix has a group 1 day month which shoots skeet with muzzleloaders. It's fun just go and observe, however it takes some time to complete each round.
PS: You'll see some very interesting guns.

I spent most of a shoot day there many years ago with a friend from Arkansas, who wintered each year in Phoenix. It was a lot of fun shooting skeet with the muzzleloaders.

[John Mazza]

That lockplate definitely shows the signs of plugged holes - no doubt !

[Jay Oliver]

I had someone who I trust and knows a lot more about antique gunmakers and flintlocks than I do take a look at it. In my pictures the hammers are at half-cock. At full-cock they are a lot further back and he immediately said that it seemed like a long way for a hammer to travel to ignite a cap. His opinion was that it was a flintlock that had been converted.

[John Mazza]

That is a very valid point - I have heard that before.
Apparently, the greater distance through which the hammer falls (pivots) allows it to build up more speed & the flint will hit the frizzen with a faster (harder) strike.
All of this extra distance/speed is of no value to merely set off a percussion cap. Excess force will merely batter the nipples.

[Jay Oliver]

Thanks for the comments John, I know there are different views on this, but I would like to re-convert this back to a flintlock.

If you think about it, it was probably a flintlock for 25-50 years and a percussion for 125-150 years. I have been wanting an original/antique upland sxs flintlock and finding a good original is both hard and expensive. Converting this one back to flintlock would make it "correct" again and give me something nice I would actually use on occasion.

I need to find someone to do the reconversion and will do that after the new year. I think it will be a wonderful gun back as a flintlock.

[Joe Wood]

Jay, IMO, your gun was definitely made as a flintlock. And it has the original Manton Style patent breech which is still there. Reconversion to flintlock would be discouraged. It can be done but a quality job by a real pro would probably cost in the vicinity of $5,000 to $10,000. Castings could be used but it would always look like a cobbled together piece and the reliability of the lock would be doubtful. An oxymoron is a “good, cheap flintlock”.