Advice Needed For 16 Ga Shells

[Karl Ferguson]

I was finally able to find and buy a very nice VH 16 O frame with 28" barrels. I shoot RST's in all my double guns but I'm not having any luck finding any RST 2 1/2" 16 ga 1 oz shells.

Is there any other brand of low psig shells that I could look for that would be acceptable to use in my new Parker ?

Any advice or leads on some would be greatly appreciated

Karl

[Bruce Day]

I use Federal , Winchester , Remington , and Fiocchi in Parkers AHE, CHE , DHE and PHE , Damascus and fluid steel barrels and a Lefever EE with Krupp barrels. These are 16 ga guns.

Working barrel pressures were SAAMI at the time when made and ran about 10,500 PSI . All the above ammunition makers make 1 oz 2 1/2 DRE loads, although finding any in stock at present is difficult. I buy four or five cases of Federals when available. It is not necessary to use 2 1/2 inch expanded shell length cartridges. It will not make any practical difference except to make it difficult to find shells.

[ED J, MORGAN]

I use Federal game loads also,

[Dale Medders]

Why do you need low pressure shells?
Are they Damascus barrels?

[Garth Gustafson]

Karl, RST has 16 ga shells back in stock. Better hurry.
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx

[Frank Srebro]

[snip] .....Is there any other brand of low psig shells that I could look for that would be acceptable to use in my new Parker ?

Any advice or leads on some would be greatly appreciated

Karl

Fellas continue to confuse low psi shells with low recoil shells. What you want (as I read it) are low recoil shells because of concerns about “old dry brittle wood" etc. and that's a function of lower weight of shot, lower velocity, or both. PSI has very little to do with it. If you can find them the RST 7/8 ounce/1125 speed Falcon Lite shells are excellent for clays or birds.

[Karl Ferguson]

Fellas continue to confuse low psi shells with low recoil shells. What you want (I believe) are low recoil shells because of "old dry brittle wood" etc. and that's a function of lower weight of shot, lower velocity, or both. PSI has very little to do with it. If you can find them the RST 7/8 ounce/1125 speed Falcon Lite shells are excellent for clays or birds.

You are correct Frank...

Dale, The barrels are Vulcan steel with very good wall thickness but the wood is 107 years old. I have always heard the RST shells were the best to use in my older guns. Thanks

[tom tutwiler]

Karl, RST has 16 ga shells back in stock. Better hurry.
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx

Show out of stock now it appears.

[Garth Gustafson]

Bummer they just sold out again. Go to the shells you want and click on "notify me"; they'll send you an email when back in stock

[Karl Ferguson]

Bummer they just sold out again. Go to the shells you want and click on "notify me"; they'll send you an email when back in stock

Thanks Garth... When I looked this morning at 1:00 AM there was nothing available so I did as you suggested.

[Frank Srebro]

Karl, if you only need a box or two for hunting maybe one of the gents who bought RST 16’s while at the VGC a weekend ago will sell you some? Of course they must be shipped by UPS or FedEx with an ammo sticker, NOT USPS.

[Drew Hause]

Karl: what, exactly, is the chamber length?
Using long shells in short chambers will raise the pressure.
Bells' study was 12g and the increase ranged from about 400 psi to 1200 psi.
It is here about 1/3 way down
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit
I am not aware of any study of modern 16g or 20g shells.

And if the mouth of the shell enters the forcing cone, recoil will be increased.

We've had this discussion on the 16 gauge site, and a fella did some dumpster diving and measured the spent shell length of several brands. He reported that the Fiocchi shells were shorter than 2 3/4".
Possibly someone could measure some empties and report?

[Karl Ferguson]

Drew, Using the Galazan chamber gauge it measures slightly less than 2 1/2".

[Drew Hause]

Thank you Karl, and that matters.
You have a wonderful lightweight gun, and I would use shells dimensionally and ballistically similar to those for which Parker Bros. designed the gun. I don't think we are any smarter than they were, now 100 years later ;)
In the 1920s that would have been a 2 9/16" shell, 1 oz. shot, and 2 1/2 Dram Equivalent of Bulk Smokeless at 1165 fps at about 7000 psi, or Dense Smokeless at about 8000 psi.
For targets, 3/4 oz. are delightful.

[Chris Robenalt]

Karl, if you really want a nice 2 1/2" low psi shell, reach out to Dave Moore, send him a pm. He's not only a PGCA member, he's also an owner of the William Larkin Moore fine gun shop here in Scottsdale, AZ. We buy and shoot their shells, exclusively made for their business.

Chris, AZ

[Mike Koneski]

Karl, start saving your empty hulls and roll your own. If you need to use 2 1/2” keep 2 3/4” and cut them down. There are a few jigs available that will work just fine to make “short shells”. Add a MEC press with a short kit and components from Ballistic Products and you will have a plentiful supply of 16g. Throw in the factory RST hulls and you’ll be happy as a clam, if clams can be happy.

[Frank Srebro]

I'll spin a tale here to underscore my high opinion of the RST 7/8 ounce 16-gauge Falcon Lites. Some years ago when the Vintage Cup was at Pintail Point I bought a VH 16 30" gun while at the event. Choked I-Mod & Full. I was itching to shoot the gun and went over to RST looking for 1-ounce loads to do the 16 gauge American Classic event. Morris told me about his then new 7/8 ounce Falcon Lites and at first I was skeptical; I was a serious sporting clays shooter and always felt the more pellets in the air, the better. He gave me two boxes plus a few extra shells in case of trap malfunctions and asked for my feedback after finishing the course. I'd never shot that Parker before - no practice shots - and ended up 3rd place in the event against something like 60 shooters and with a score of 45 ex 50 as I recall. Anyway, since then I've almost exclusively used that 7/8 ounce 1125 speed shell for 16b clays, grouse and woodcock. Yep I'll have a few heavier shells loaded with 6's and 4's in the vest in case I run into pheasants or turkeys while out in the covers.

I traded off that 16 VH 30" a few years later and always regretted it. She just seemed right whenever I shot her. Then at the VGC two weeks ago I found another 16 VH 30" and bought the gun. Again it's choked I-Mod & Full. I didn't have any 16 gauge shells with me but couldn't wait to shoot the Parker and RST obliged with a box of Falcon Lites in 7-1/2 shot. Joined up with two friends shooting the woods course and broke 24 ex 25, again the first time I shot the new to me Parker. Brought back memories of that day at Pintail Point. :)

Those 7/8 ounce 16 gauge RST's rock!

[Randy G Roberts]

I am with Frank on this one concerning the RST loads. I do use their 1 oz loads for Phez but I greatly prefer the 7/8 load for targets. Recoil is low, easy on me and my Parkers. All of my 16's are tightly choked so the loss of 1/8 oz of shot really matters not. I purchased 2 flats of the 1 oz 8's some time ago for targets, when they are gone I will not buy them again unless it's the only game in town. Good luck Karl !

[Bruce Day]

Referring to the citations in Dr Drews comment , I did not find the increase he stated. I did find the statement that the increase for shooting a 23/4 cartridge in a 21/2 chamber would be less than 1000psi. Another Sherman Bell DGJ article says 3 to 5 percent. For a 10,000 psi load, that is 300 to 500 psi.

[Drew Hause]

“Long Shells in Short Chambers”, Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in “Finding Out for Myself” Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001
The test barrel was a ‘heavy’ Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1” from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16” from the breech.
Tests performed:
1. 2 1/2” chamber with a 7/16” forcing cone – “British chamber” (BC)
2. 2 1/2” chamber with a 1 1/4” forcing cone – “Modified British chamber”
(MBC)
3. 2 3/4” chamber with a 1” forcing cone – “American Chamber” (AC)
Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots

2 3/4” 12 GAUGE LOADS
1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps (measured in the 2 3/4” chamber)
2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps

……..BC…..….MBC…....AC…...Difference BC vs AC
1…..5725…..….5905…....4834……891 psi
2…..6225…..….6065…....5009……1216 psi
3…..5865…..….5325…....5263……602 psi…..“long cones do reduce pressure”
4…..5845…..….5665…....5058……787 psi
5…..7805…..….7845…....7577……228 psi
6…..11,125..….11,045..…10,787….338 psi
7…..6892…..….6805…....5953……939 psi
8…..8765…..….8545…....7870……895 psi
9…..5405…..….5265…....4603……802 psi
10…6765…..….6365..…..6380……385 psi

Average difference of the 10 loads is about 700 psi.

Two 3” loads were tested in the BC barrel; one resulted in a pressure increase of 1442 psi.

Interpretation and caution:
1. Results in light British 12b or American small bore barrels may be different.
2. Results in YOUR barrel would require drilling the chamber for the transducer thereby destroying your gun.
3. Paper hulls with star crimps showed little difference compared to plastic hulls.
NO roll crimp paper hulls were tested.
4. The increase in pressure comparing 1 oz., 1 1/8 oz., and 1 1/4 oz. loads was similar.
5. Longer cones MAY reduce pressure. This was NOT a comparison of standard 1” with 2 1/2” cones however.
6. “Shooting 2 3/4” shells in 2 1/2” chambers does make them produce more pressure-but in most cases it is less than a 1000 psi increase. I see no reason, related to safety, to modify an original 2 1/2” chambered gun to shoot 2 3/4” shells, if the 2 3/4” load you intend to use would develop pressure that is safe in that gun, when fired in a standard chamber!”
7. “We found that lengthening the forcing cone in a 2 1/2” chamber usually helps mitigate the pressure increase that comes from shooting 2 3/4” or 3” shells in the short chamber.”
8. “Shooting heavy 2 3/4” loads in a light gun is a dumb thing to do. Shooting 3” magnum duck loads is even dumber.”
9. This is not a study of the effect on RECOIL of shooting long shells in short chambers.


As said, I am not aware of any study of modern 16g or 20g 2 3/4" loads, both of which tend to run higher pressures than 12g, in shorter chambers.

[Mike Koneski]

I agree with Frank and Randy, those 7/8 oz Falcon Lites are great shells.

[Karl Ferguson]

I was able to buy a case of the RST 16 ga 7/8 oz Falcon Lites from RST today... They were still listed as available on their website a little bit ago. Thanks for the replys about these shells.

[William Davis]

Hodgdon has excellent 2 1/2 inch 16 G data on line. 1100 to 1200 FPS 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads. My 16s it’s either RST or RST 2 1/2 inch hulls loaded using Hodgdons data. Low recoil excellent performance. Problem with most factory 16s they are loaded to operate Recoil operated Browning 16’s and the like. Not necessary in a vintage Parker were recoil is a disadvantage .

William