Parker Wins Challenge

[Chuck Bishop]

Parker bested Fox by (I think) 4 or 5 targets. Details and pictures to follow Sunday or Monday.

[David Noble]

Way to go Parker shooters!

[Brett Hoop]

Congratulations #trending

[Randy G Roberts]

Way to go Parker team, congratulations! Now where is that Tool Man at when you need him. Is he possibly out dining on Crow.:rotf:

[Chuck Bishop]

Team consisted of Koneski, DeFernlmont Sr, McGregor, Dennis Downs from NC, and yours truely. I am happy to report I didn't let the team down. Finally got a real red challenge hat!

[Chuck Bishop]

Got to give Tool Man credit, he's learned to take defeat well!

[Dean Romig]

I got a pic of him running away.

This is what a fox looks like when he’s been whupped.



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[Mike Koneski]

TEAM PARKER!!

Dennis Downs, Mal MacGregor, Mike Koneski, Chuck Bishop and Dave deFernelmont.

[Mike Koneski]

Way to go Parker team, congratulations! Now where is that Tool Man at when you need him. Is he possibly out dining on Crow.:rotf:

We had plenty of cheese for him to go along with all the whine!!

[John Davis]

TEAM PARKER!!

Dennis Downs, Mal MacGregor, Mike Koneski, Chuck Bishop and Dave deFernelmont.

The Five Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Way to go team Parker!

[Daryl Corona]

It's not exactly like Parker blew Fox away. The margin was only 5 birds. Fox had a first time shooter and she was really nervous. She did her best but she was grinning form ear to ear just like our own Mr. Bishop because the new format for choosing teams gave everyone who shot for their respective maker an equal chance. Chuck did very well, no major flinches, and made some great second barrel kills. He's got his hat.:) I shoot with Chuck on a regular basis and there wasn't one other person that I wanted to see make the team other than him. Your welcome Chuck.:cool:

[Steve Cambria]

WHOA...WHOA.....WHOA, oh BIG WINDS FROM WINNETKA!!!

Let's not turn this into a FOX NEWS feature and allow us to hear both sides of the story!! This was no landslide victory by any stretch, AND it was nip and tuck down to the final round of true pairs. Indeed, there was plenty of sweat on the brows of the "RED HATS" especially during that protracted, infectious slump when down the line, targets floated away unscathed!

More importantly, the new FPC Challenge format was a SMASH hit!!
My congratulatory note and much more (unbiased) news to follow.

Oh and BTW Deanno: That frightened, submissive beast looked oddly enough like one of Team Parker's more vociferous characters whenever the "3-bird" was launched. Here's a hint.....
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[CraigThompson]

What’s this “new format” ??? I’d be intrested to hear the particulars of this ! You mean it’s no longer based on the five best scores ?

[Dave Suponski]

Hell a I I if ya wants a red hat that bad I woulda loaned ya mine :rotf:

[Steve Cambria]

What’s this “new format” ??? I’d be interested to hear the particulars of this ! You mean it’s no longer based on the five best scores ?

Correct. Senators Corona and Cambria introduced the bill (to widespread bi-partisan support) intended to bring a refreshing change to the same-old, tired Challenge format. Every competitor receives a raffle ticket based on the number of qualifying rounds shot. The top two shooters from each team earn the anchor spots, the remaining three are drawn from the Fox or Parker bucket.

Our hope is to give the more casual shooters their 15 minutes of fame basking in the Challenge limelight, and still maintain the competitive integrity of the event. If yesterday's contest was a leading indicator, I truly believe we're on to something here!

[Mike Franzen]

It's not exactly like Parker blew Fox away. The margin was only 5 birds. Fox had a first time shooter and she was really nervous. She did her best
She might want to try a parker!

[Daryl Corona]

She might want to try a parker!

Then she would not only be nervous but worried her gun might not go off.:eek::):)

[CraigThompson]

Hmmm new concept , can’t say the competitive side of me finds it Intresting at all .

[CraigThompson]

Correct. Senators Corona and Cambria introduced the bill (to widespread bi-partisan support) intended to bring a refreshing change to the same-old, tired Challenge format. Every competitor receives a raffle ticket based on the number of qualifying rounds shot. The top two shooters from each team earn the anchor spots, the remaining three are drawn from the Fox or Parker bucket.

Our hope is to give the more casual shooters their 15 minutes of fame basking in the Challenge limelight, and still maintain the competitive integrity of the event. If yesterday's contest was a leading indicator, I truly believe we're on to something here!

Look I understand what they’re trying to do , however I don’t care for it . If I was to make some team I’d rather it was from my score and not the luck of a rabbit in the hat . Competition is competition the best should compete with the best . Not some drawing reduced thing .

[CraigThompson]

Koneski had a Pro-Am deal as he called it . I thought that a far better way for others to get involved . And you shot kinda 5-stand protection .

[Mike Franzen]

It’s an interesting discussion with good points on either side you agree with. I wasn’t there so I can not judge it from first hand experience. But I think trying new ideas is healthy. Nothing has ever grown or lasted without change.

[Mike Koneski]

Parker won with the format of top 5 vs top 5, the way it should be. Parker won with top 2 plus random 3 vs top 2 plus random 3 with a lesser format. I’d rather see it go back to the original format instead of having it more a “luck of the draw” process. And yes, I missed an unprecedented 5 targets, four of them being a lazy right to left crosser!! I felt bad for the Parker shooters who shot mid-40s in qualifying and were left out because it was deemed better to have a lucky draw instead of performance dictate the squads. That’s my two cents worth. I know there are plenty of shooters from both organizations who prefer the original format. Just sayin’.

[MARK KIRCHER]

Perhaps We should consider a format of just more shooters on each team.
Perhaps 10 or even 15 on each.
I watched the entire event and it took less than 45 minutes.
I agree with the competitive shooters that it should be best not random.
Having 10 or 15 shooters might solve the problem of more inclusion and the problem of the best against best that day.

[MARK KIRCHER]

Maybe even have 5 big bores for each team and 5 small bores for each team with total combined for winner.

[Craig Larter]

One difficulty Fox ran into was fielding a team under the top 5 score method. After a few years most average shots realized making the team by score was futile, it's nearly always the same guys. So many average shots never shot for score since shooting not for score is cheaper and the chances of qualifying were nil. The pool of Fox shooters is much smaller the Parker, the paid membership is one third.
One change I liked was holding the shoot off on Friday since many leave Friday to be home for the weekend.

[Mike Koneski]

Perhaps We should consider a format of just more shooters on each team.
Perhaps 10 or even 15 on each.
I watched the entire event and it took less than 45 minutes.
I agree with the competitive shooters that it should be best not random.
Having 10 or 15 shooters might solve the problem of more inclusion and the problem of the best against best that day.

Mark, with 10 shooters it took 45 minutes to an hour. Doubling that will just be a problem. Now you need two hours late day Friday (which I liked. Friday works better than Saturday) and most shooters and the range help have other things to do. This isn't the Smith-Parker where you have hundreds of qualifying rounds shot and there is a culture of participation among both groups.

[Mike Koneski]

One difficulty Fox ran into was fielding a team under the top 5 score method. After a few years most average shots realized making the team by score was futile, it's nearly always the same guys. So many average shots never shot for score since shooting not for score is cheaper and the chances of qualifying were nil. The pool of Fox shooters is much smaller the Parker, the paid membership is one third.
One change I liked was holding the shoot off on Friday since many leave Friday to be home for the weekend.

Actually, all the rules says for qualifying is that you must shoot a 50 bird field event. Doesn't say whether that is an "official" round or a "fun" round. As long as the same targets are shot and the cards are checked at the Fox booth you should be good.

[Mike Franzen]

Sounds like a solution might be to keep the Parker Fox challenge competitive and create some more events that would be fun and anyone can participate in. The goal should be to increase attendance and keep them coming back.

[CraigThompson]

Sounds like a solution might be to keep the Parker Fox challenge competitive and create some more events that would be fun and anyone can participate in. The goal should be to increase attendance and keep them coming back.

Typical format it seems at these things is ties are decided by long run . At the present format I’d be awful disgusted if I drove the five plus hours it takes to get to Hausemann’s and shot a mid 40’s score that tied with two others for the #1 and #2 spots and then find I lost out because of the long run deal . Granted that could happen if it were the top five or top ten .

[Mike Franzen]

Craig you should create an event, decide the rules, schedule a time and place and put out the invites. It would be easy to do at either Mike’s place or Ernie’s. Who knows, you might come up with something really popular. That’s what William Harden Foster did.

[CraigThompson]

Craig you should create an event, decide the rules, schedule a time and place and put out the invites. It would be easy to do at either Mike’s place or Ernie’s. Who knows, you might come up with something really popular. That’s what William Harden Foster did.

I’ve shot Foster’s game for well over FORTY years . I’ve no desire to get involved in creating etc . I’m more about arriving , pay , shoot and if I do well enough shoot off etc . The concept of competition is plain and simple as is the concept of for fun or pleasure . While both are fine etc I don’t exactly agree with them trying to be intertwined in a shall we say a main event . We have two separate Vintagers groups in the state of Virginia sort of putting on shoots , I was going to them semi regularly. However one group doesn’t care to keep score and of course when I shot with them I kept track of my own score , but I never did care for that it’s kinda nice to know where you stacked up among the competition on that day . Guess I shot to much skeet and trap in my quite younger days , so the competitive instinct in me hasn’t been lost over time .

[Bill Murphy]

How about a "claiming" shoot? We all shoot 50 birds, with guns that can be "claimed" by any other shooter for maybe $250 in order for the score shot with that gun to be considered as part of the winning scores. After all the high scoring shooters have their guns claimed for $250, and they refuse to give them up, their scores are disallowed and other lower scores take the win. Maybe some of the high scores will agree to give up their guns for $250, but probably very few. When the remaining ten scores from each team are tabulated, they can keep their guns and their scores. It works in horse racing and car racing, why not shotgun competition? The most interesting part of such an event is the auction for all forfeited shotguns at the end of the shoot. Imagine paying $650 for a gun that you sold for $250 just a few hours earlier.

[Mike Koneski]

Bill, who gets the $250? The shooter? Asking for a friend.

[Daryl Corona]

I find the comments on the new selection process of the challenge teams somewhat disingenuous and misguided. I find it frustrating that some of the posters who criticized the process were not at the VGC and have not participated in any challenge event that I can remember.

I'm the person who initiated this new selection process and I will admit it's not perfect but a work in process. I am open for suggestions but keep in mind my goal is to include the average shooter who would never qualify on score alone but just his or her desire to make "the team" and get the hat would make for a memorable weekend.

Let's start with our name. PGCA. Parker Gun COLLECTORS Assn. Not Shooters Assn. Most of us are not collectors in the true sense of the word but we enjoy shooting and hunting with Parkers. There are only a handful of serious, master class shooters who shoot Parkers and they have tended to dominate the challenge events for years. I don't want to deny them that pleasure. This is only an attempt to level the playing field so to speak for the average member who enjoys shooting his favorite Parker but doesn't shoot thousands of registered targets a year.

We need to step back and realize that the challenge event is not associated with the NSSA and the original SxS events were just gathering of like minded individuals who want to shoot their Parkers, Foxes, Lefevers, etc., and have some friendly competition. They were meant for original guns, not tricked out race guns. I witnessed this past weekend a SxS which I could not identify with extended choke tubes. Really?? I've seen shooters change chokes while on the course. But I digress.

So the two factors in this equation are the handful of the top shooters, those who post scores in the forties, and the average shooter with scores that run the gamut from the teens to the thirties.

This new process of team selection will still offer the top guns that competitive arena. They will just have to bring their A game to make those top two spots on the team. This leaves three spots left for the average Parker shooter.

I don't why we can't work together to change the process to be more equitable to the average dues paying member. In the last two challenge events we have had a youth shooter and a female shooter who would have never made it under the old system. I also know of a shooter this past weekend who didn't want to be on the team but accepted the hat and shot lights out, way above his pay grade.

People don't like change. All I'm asking is for is to give this new process a chance because I'm determined to make it an event for the members who are just casual shooters to have a chance to represent their favorite manufacturer, be it Fox, Parker, Lefever, in the various challenge events. Come on, who doesn't get a kick out of having their picture posted under the challenge results showing them on the team?:bigbye:

[Charles Downs]

Hello all! I have been reading these comments upon my return home and would like to chime in my two cent opinion if I may. Many don't know me in this group but I happen to be one of the "lucky" average joe shooters to have been allowed to shoot in this event under the new challenge format. I must say first off I love attending these events, meeting new people with my same interests, and seeing some of the most beautiful landscape this country has to offer. I was excited to get onto the team but once I called PULL from my first station I wondered what have I gotten myself into. I knew no one on my team personally but I had seen there names several times over the years on the posted scores at the Southern spring and fall events. Thank goodness my shooting was good enough to hang on to allow Parker another win. I like most people love a competition and can stand a good ribbing or shaming, from friends that is. If we had lost I don't know if I could ever go near the Parker tent again believing that my shooting was the cause of it and believe me I was nervous and sweating enough it could have happened. A double-edged sword no doubt. Thank goodness I own a Fox too. Now I have a hat, I hope it isn't a reminder to some of the challenge " that really wasn't legit " but for me it was fun and I met some new friends and I have my story to tell. If the rules change again tomorrow I hope to still be around trying to qualify and chase those high scores. Anything to bring others to these events is a win to us all. Thanks.

[Bob Brown]

If I could make a sugestion? I probably won't have the opportunity to make it to a Parker/Fox or Parker/Smith match, but I would like to. The time, distance, border issues, and cost would be substantial and if I went that far it would be nice to be involved in the outcome. The top 5 verses top 5 format isn't really a test of the make of the shotgun, its a test of the shooters. Let's face it, they could probably trade guns and still smoke the rest of the field with the competitor's brand. Individual competition is great, and the classes broken down by hammer gun, gauge, and even field gun weight could supply that. Have an unlimited class for the ultra competitve people to see where they rank and determine the top shooters.
As with other makers the total team of Parker shooters at these events are made up of all classes of skill levels. Young, old, male, female, in their prime, past their prime, never had a prime. They're a team because of their appreciation of their favorite brand of shotgun. Why not let everyone's score count for for the big prize, the Parker/Fox Challenge? Have the average score for all shooters of each brand determine the winner of that title. As long as it is kept good natured and fun that should build a team atmosphere with fellow team members encouraging each other to shoot well. The top shooters will still be the top shooters. The large number of shooters would prevent even a very bad shot from from hurting the average too much. Besides, both teams will have their strong and weak shooters. I think that it would also be a much truer measure of the top shotgun maker and everyone would feel they contributed.

[Reggie Bishop]

Daryl I applaud your efforts to get more people involved in these shoots and in turn maybe getting more people interested in classic American double guns.

[Mike Koneski]

Had a nice discussion with Daryl on Sunday about the whole FPC and FLC. We agreed on most things and disagreed on very few. As the Polish proverb says, “Not my circus, not my monkeys”!! Whatever the format is most of us will still shoot to qualify and if fortunate enough to reach the shoot-off, we’ll shoot with the same focus and competitive fire as always! Daryl, always remember, broken glass and razor blades. :)

[Daryl Corona]

At this point, the broken glass seems the more humane side.:cool:

Once again the super sporting course yesterday was great! If any members can get the chance to shoot it at Rock Mountain, don't pass it up. Sometimes it ain't about the score but the fun of a new venue.

[Mike Franzen]

To be honest, one complaint I haven’t heard, “I never get to qualify because of the rules”. I have dreamed for years of making the Parker Team but so far I haven’t shot well enough. I don’t blame the event organizers, I realize there are better shooters than me and I need more practice. There are not many IMHO that want to put in the hours and rounds to be considered a competitive shooter. If someone is working towards that they realize right away it’s a highest score game. So they keep trying or they give up on becoming competitive. When we try to “Level the playing field” it’s usually because our team isn’t winning enough and there perceived unfair advantages. I say leave the challenges as they are - for the top guns. Spend time on devising shooting games anyone can enjoy. For example, in 2019 Ernie had some kind of flurry event you shot with a partner. John Davis and shot that together and had the best time. Ernie also had a game that was like shooting live birds where you had to break the target before it flew beyond the boundaries. Again, a lot of fun. We should be trying to attract more shooters, collectors and bystanders. Worrying about who wins these challenges is counterproductive. The vast majority of the different organizations members couldn’t care less when it comes right down to it. They go to these events because they want to have fun. If the whining and squabbling become the main thing it will soon die and fade away. Just look what happened to the Vintagers.

[Mike Koneski]

Mike, we started doing a Pro-Am Shoot here at our SXS event. We take the top 5 scores and bottom 5 scores in any 50 bird event and pair them up. Basically 1-10,2-9,3-8,4-7,5-6. Shoot-off has 5 report pair. The "Am" must shoot at each target first, the "Pro" can only shoot back-up. Keeps it interesting and gets more shooters involved into the competetive team concept. They all have fun and no complaints about the format. I like the FPC and FLC in the top 5 vs top 5 format, but will shoot it no matter what is done. Maybe a Pro-Am type deal as a new event with no differentiation between Parker or Fox shot earlier in the day? All scores put in the list and Pros and Ams figured from there. Only issue would be whether the 5-Stand would be busy or not.

[Daniel Carter]

A club i belong to 35 years had a man who bought a Perazzi and spent a few thousand dollars on a skeet coach so he could win the winter and summer skeet league. He won going away and was very smug about it, to the point of being obnoxious. A system of handicap was brought up and he was incensed, he would again have to be in competion with the little people. He refused to play when this was proposed and went away. We all lived happily ever after.

[Frank Srebro]

[snip] ...... Once again the super sporting course yesterday was great! If any members can get the chance to shoot it at Rock Mountain, don't pass it up. Sometimes it ain't about the score but the fun of a new venue.

Sunday marked the annual members shoot-off and luncheon at nearby Rock Mountain. Daryl and Smitty stopped by to shoot before heading back to their homes, First pic L to R - Abby, Frank, Daryl and Mike

Second: Quite a range of guns on our squad ..... two Parker small bores (28 & 16), Model 12, Browning o/u and Beretta competition gas gun

Last: Abby is getting close to getting her own vintage SxS. Here she's trying out Mike's way cool 32" VH 16 bore

[Daryl Corona]

Mike, we started doing a Pro-Am Shoot here at our SXS event. We take the top 5 scores and bottom 5 scores in any 50 bird event and pair them up. Basically 1-10,2-9,3-8,4-7,5-6. Shoot-off has 5 report pair. The "Am" must shoot at each target first, the "Pro" can only shoot back-up. Keeps it interesting and gets more shooters involved into the competetive team concept. They all have fun and no complaints about the format. I like the FPC and FLC in the top 5 vs top 5 format, but will shoot it no matter what is done. Maybe a Pro-Am type deal as a new event with no differentiation between Parker or Fox shot earlier in the day? All scores put in the list and Pros and Ams figured from there. Only issue would be whether the 5-Stand would be busy or not.

I like that idea Big Guy. Might be a way to satisfy everyone but it could turn in to a time/scheduling nightmare. Something to think about.

[Chuck Bishop]

Let me give you my thought per my perspective.

First the competition aspect and I'll just talk about the Parker vs. LC Smith Challenge at the Southern for now. Each year I ask myself if I really want to shoot the qualifier and pay 60 cents per target for essentially practice? Being a realist, I know I have a snowballs chance in hell of making the team. Every year I do it. Why? First, I like to hear the gun go off, secondly, I want to support my Association, and thirdly, some part of the entry fee goes to a good cause. 10 high gun shooters make the team for each Association. I don't know how many shooters shoot the qualifier but the shooting is continuous for all day Friday and a half day Saturday. That's a lot of shooters and the majority of them will never make their team. It's the same shooters who make the team year after year plus or minus a couple of new additions. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching these guys break targets in the shootoff that I can't hit in my dreams. No amount of practice at my age will bring me up to their level.

Now for the Fox Parker Challenge, I want to congratulate Steve, Craig, and Daryl for trying something new to get the "average shooter" involved in the challenge. It seems like many of the "Top Dogs" don't like it. I guess only 2 "Top Dogs" in the shootoff is not enough. They want it all, even though it's been that way in the Fox Parker Challenge for years, and it's always been that way at the Southern. I can tell you that my name was drawn for the Parker team and I was apprehensive about shooting. I didn't want everyone to see how bad of a shot I was (although many already knew) and cost the Parker team the win. I hadn't been in a shootoff in almost 20 years while shooting ATA. I sucked it up and shot but boy was I nervous as I'm sure Dennis Downs and Fox shooter Laura Beavers was. I can tell you this, my nerves were a wreck and my heart was pounding when I took the line. My memory of shootoffs long ago are still etched in my memory and this one will be too. Lets think of the average shooters in our Associations a little more, the "Top Dogs" will still get their bones. Big shout out to Laura Beavers for giving it her best shot.

[Mills Morrison]

I was the “random” guy chosen for the Fall Southern shoot off years ago. I managed to not cost the team a victory and still have the trophy in my office. Looked at it and thought about that day today as a matter of fact

[Chuck Bishop]

Some pictures of the Fox Parker Challenge. Moe, Larry, Curly

[Chuck Bishop]

Team Fox
L to R
Dick Mider
Jeff Stegmeier
Laura Beavers
Dana Farrell
Mike Smith

[Chuck Bishop]

Team Parker
L to R
Dennis Downs
Mal McGregor
Mike Koneski
Chuck Bishop
Dave Defernelmont

[Dean Romig]

Chuck - I applaud you for speaking with impunity of your candid opinions. Thank you!





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[Mills Morrison]

Team Fox has it on looks at least

[Daryl Corona]

Well Chuck as it turns out you have nothing to apologize for. You shot lights out as that nervous, heart pounding condition served you well on the line. You channeled it just like you did when you were on your way to a 100 straight in your trap shooting days. As I said before I'm so glad you were chosen as you became our amateur- shooter- who- didn't -want -to -shoot-but-stepped-up-and- delivered guy. As it turns out letters are not the only thing you are good at.:bowdown:

Seriously, you and Dennis need to shoot for Fox next year. You both proved that this new system can work.

As a sidebar: The following morning while we were shooting the main I find out that a Fox shooter shot a 44/50 on the course but didn't know to turn in his card. He thought that we were OK for shooters. If he had turned it in the win would have been awarded to the Fox Assn. Live and learn. You were there and watched him break 67/80 for third place in the main event. He won't be 15 until next year.:rolleyes:

[Charles Downs]

I must agree!

[Tom Pellegrini]

Every year for the last 6 years, minus the pandemic year, I always shoot the Parker/ Smith qualifier two or three times each year. I always miss the cut by 2 or 3 targets, once it was by 1 target. Would I like to shoot the challenge, absolutely, would I like to be able to shoot it as being a drawn ticket, maybe. I will say a great thank you to Daryl, Craig, and Steve for stepping up to the plate and running the event. I am sure that everyone enjoyed themselves and that is one major point of the whole "shooting match" pardon the pun.

[Daryl Corona]

Every year for the last 6 years, minus the pandemic year, I always shoot the Parker/ Smith qualifier two or three times each year. I always miss the cut by 2 or 3 targets, once it was by 1 target. Would I like to shoot the challenge, absolutely, would I like to be able to shoot it as being a drawn ticket, maybe. I will say a great thank you to Daryl, Craig, and Steve for stepping up to the plate and running the event. I am sure that everyone enjoyed themselves and that is one major point of the whole "shooting match" pardon the pun.

Tom gets it. Thanks. Next year save your money and spend it at Drake Landing.

[Chuck Bishop]

Yup, that kid knows how to shoot, just hope girls don't trip him up too soon:rotf:

[Mike Koneski]

Imagine the scores Shane could shoot using a Parker!!! WOW!!:shock:

[Daryl Corona]

Imagine the scores Shane could shoot using a Parker!!! WOW!!:shock:

Shane could show up with a Barker and still shoot like that. Young eyes, young reflexes.

[Mike Koneski]

He could shoot for Team Crescent!! We should hook him up.

[Daryl Corona]

Shooting the Crescent could signal a resurgence of the Stoat.:crying:

[Mike Koneski]

TRUTH!!! BWAHAHAHA!! Head up or head down? Any flying turnips? :rotf:

[CraigThompson]

Let me give you my thought per my perspective.

First the competition aspect and I'll just talk about the Parker vs. LC Smith Challenge at the Southern for now. Each year I ask myself if I really want to shoot the qualifier and pay 60 cents per target for essentially practice? Being a realist, I know I have a snowballs chance in hell of making the team. Every year I do it. Why? First, I like to hear the gun go off, secondly, I want to support my Association, and thirdly, some part of the entry fee goes to a good cause. 10 high gun shooters make the team for each Association. I don't know how many shooters shoot the qualifier but the shooting is continuous for all day Friday and a half day Saturday. That's a lot of shooters and the majority of them will never make their team. It's the same shooters who make the team year after year plus or minus a couple of new additions. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching these guys break targets in the shootoff that I can't hit in my dreams. No amount of practice at my age will bring me up to their level.

I shot the 20 and 16 challenges at Sanford this year . Each three times I think and qualified for the 20 . Sorry to say I didn’t shoot the open challenge , I will next year several times . Didn’t name guns in June at Hausemann’s so I suppose I wasn’t able to qualify . I did at Mikes and qualified . And provided I’m
Alive and the creek don’t rise I’ll compete in all three challenges at Georgetown . To be quite honest I thrive on competition and Sanford got my competitive juices flowing again . Can’t say I consider myself top dog caliber but I’m damn sure nipping at their heels .

[Stan Hoover]

Imagine the scores Shane could shoot using a Parker!!! WOW!!:shock:

Mike,

I was going to say, You should see him with an Ithaca in his hands, but I suppose you seen that already:)

[Steve Cambria]

Great discussion on the new format both pro and con. I'll add this:

If you look at it conceptually, when you meld three "average" shooters with two "competition" shooters, chances are the average Joes will step-up their game several notches, and in theory, you should have one hell of a competitive match. And that's exactly what transpired. Not to mention, the majority of spectacular dead pairs and lengthy second barrel kills were performed by you guessed it, the Joes. All and all, I thought it was one of the most exciting FPC contests we've had in years.

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[scott kittredge]

I always thought was a " fun shoot" If people want to shoot competition that could be done elsewhere.
Scott

[Pete Lester]

The team against team shoots are side events at these shoots, trying or making the team is optional as you don't have to turn your card in for consideration. In order to field a five man team it has to be a bigger shoot and there are not that many big ones. No matter how the teams are picked there will be unhappy people. Since many really good shooters will jump on the team they qualify for brand loyalty is questionable. Picking names out of a hat might be more a test of the gun rather than people. Normally you can shoot just for fun, but this year the Vintagers did not offer a discounted round for no score as they did in '19 and is done at the June shoot at Hausmann's. Although it's billed as the World Side by Side Championship not everybody there is trying for or able to land in the trophys. I think the lack of having a discounted round for no score is self defeating for the club as I think it leads to less shooting overall. Breakdown of equipment such as the pigeon ring not being available for most of the shoot affects participation as well. I think with the ammo shortage people are more careful/choosy about where they burn their powder so if something is more expensive or not available they may not use those shells elsewhere. Just my .02, we live in strange times, Covid has made a mess of things in many ways.

[Pete Lester]

PS. Another question I ask myself, are people aging out of participating as time goes on? It's pretty much all familiar faces at these events, people we have seen there before for many years. There are not too many people participating who are under 50. I think we all ask the question of where is so and so who is not there and the number of people who use to go but are not there seems to be increasing each year.

[Dean Romig]

It's a fact Pete...





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[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

I sure hope it will be a long time before I " Age Out ", but one thing I know for sure is that, in the future, I'll be renting a cart instead of pushing my gun caddy up Ernie's hills.:rotf:

[Daryl Corona]

As I read all the comments on the challenge events, the good, bad and ugly of it all I believe in the past two challenge events (Fox/LeFever in June and Fox/Parker last week) the Fox BOD, with yours truly and Toolman spearheading the effort, have made this event more accessible to the average shooter.

Chuck Bishop's post earlier in this thread concerning the P/LCS challenge at the Southern outlined the feelings of many who shot but had a snowballs chance in hell to make the team. Same old faces in all the same places. I've always wanted to level the playing field and I think we are on the right path.

Evidence: In June at the F/L challenge we had, for the first time on the national stage, a 14yr old and his dad on the same team. At last weeks event we had our first woman and his excellency the "Bishop" on the line shooting for their respective makers.

These challenge events are not to prove which gun is better. We know they are all great guns and many of us own and shoot one or more of each. If these events are to continue and be successful we need to return to the original premise of like minded individuals gathering to shoot their favorite guns and have an equitable chance of "making the team and getting the hat'' IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. If not, can't we just get together and have fun?

[Dean Romig]

These challenge events are not to prove which gun is better. We know they are all great guns and many of us own and shoot one or more of each. If these events are to continue and be successful we need to return to the original premise of like minded individuals gathering to shoot their favorite guns and have an equitable chance of "making the team”?


Agreed Daryl, and I think we should endeavor to stick to this premise. However, even in the 1880’s, and later, in the pigeon shoots of yore it was always about the expertise of the shooter and not so much the gun, but if you are a religious reader of John Davis’ quarterly column “Parkers In Pulp” (as I am.) the gun always got billing after the shoot and the respective manufacturers were very quick to claim victory for their “brand.”





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[Daryl Corona]

I've told John that the "Parkers in Pulp" series is my favorite read.

Yes, way back then Dean, those shooters were like the athlete "superstars" of today hawking their sponsored products.
The top clay shooters of today are sponsored by the various ammo and gun manufactures as they were back then. Hit a Titlelist3 and you could be just as good as Arnie Palmer.

In most cases the age old axiom "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" holds true.
Just because Parker, Fox, LCSmith or Lefever wins a challenge event we all understand that they are all great guns but not the best in the field.

So come to these events with your favorite piece or pieces, shoot your best, and feel good that you don't have to shoot like Digweed or Koneski to make the team. Just keep in mind that there will always be a #3 crosser that will level the playing field.:eek::bigbye:

[Kevin McCormack]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;344366][SIZE="4"] " No matter how the teams are picked there will be unhappy people. Since many really good shooters will jump on the team they qualify for brand loyalty is questionable...

.... this year the Vintagers did not offer a discounted round for no score as they did in '19 and is done at the June shoot at Hausmann's...... I think the lack of having a discounted round for no score is self defeating for the club as I think it leads to less shooting overall.

... Breakdown of equipment such as the pigeon ring not being available for most of the shoot affects participation as well. "

Now this really gets to the heart of the matter....Thanks, Pete!!!

[Mike Koneski]

So come to these events with your favorite piece or pieces, shoot your best, and feel good that you don't have to shoot like Digweed or Koneski to make the team. Just keep in mind that there will always be a #3 crosser that will level the playing field.:eek::bigbye:

Geez, ya miss 5 targets with 4 of them being a simple r to l crosser and you become a has been!!!! :rotf::rotf::rotf: Trust me, anyone can be "stuck on stupid"!! :banghead::banghead:

[Mills Morrison]

If it is the crosser I remember, it is tough. But tough is good.

[Mike Koneski]

Totally different targets than in June on the 5-Stand. I thought that target was actually one of the simpler targets on that event. Not fast, not far, just a lot of transition and I shot over it all 4 times. Didn't miss it in the Field Gun event. It is what it is. :)

[Steve Cambria]

Geez, ya miss 5 targets with 4 of them being a simple r to l crosser and you become a has been!!!! :rotf::rotf::rotf: Trust me, anyone can be "stuck on stupid"!! :banghead::banghead:

Don't sweat it K-Man....when they stop roasting the chestnuts, then it's time to worry!! You got this!!! :bigbye:

99850

[Mike Koneski]

Don't sweat it K-Man....when they stop roasting the chestnuts, then it's time to worry!! You got this!!! :bigbye:

99850

It's all good Tool, I would expect nothing less!! I do prefer my roasted chestnuts in PA Dutch Potato Filling!! :cool:

[Daryl Corona]

Geez, ya miss 5 targets with 4 of them being a simple r to l crosser and you become a has been!!!! :rotf::rotf::rotf: Trust me, anyone can be "stuck on stupid"!! :banghead::banghead:

Just yanking your chain, but I know you know that. I did list you after Digweed so you got that going for you.

That #2 gave some shooters a fit. Me included.:banghead:

[Mike Koneski]

But Digweed shoots "Eurotrash"!! :rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Daryl Corona]

But Digweed shoots "Eurotrash"!! :rotf::rotf::rotf:

When in Rome........:)

[John Davis]

Is it the Indian or the Arrow? It is my humble opinion that if the bow fits the Indian, it's a little of both.

[Tom Pellegrini]

Geez, ya miss 5 targets with 4 of them being a simple r to l crosser and you become a has been!!!! :rotf::rotf::rotf: Trust me, anyone can be "stuck on stupid"!! :banghead::banghead:

Mike, I whole heartedly agree. The super sporting event at your shoot last July I thoroughly enjoyed. Some of the targets on the 12ga course were, as some would say, were out of this world, or as I would say "came" from out of this world. All in all even though I did not break into the trophies, I enjoyed the entire shoot. The way I look at the competition part is just step up to the plate and throw your hat in the ring and give it a whirl. Either way trophy or not I enjoy myself.

[CraigThompson]

I sure hope it will be a long time before I " Age Out ", but one thing I know for sure is that, in the future, I'll be renting a cart instead of pushing my gun caddy up Ernie's hills.:rotf:

I’m not knocking anybody for walking if they wish to . But if I go somewhere and can get a cart I’m gonna have a cart . I don’t have a push caddie . And I’m sure not carrying all the junk I take .

[Pete Lester]

I am curious, back in the day I shot a lot of ATA trap. All shoots big and small had purses one could play. A favorite of many shooters from outstanding to average was the Lewis Purse because the 2nd and 3rd place money would be a significantly lower score than those that won an event. Why do these shoots not have Lewis Purses and the like? The Lewis Purse was a chance for some average shooters to win something.

[Pete Lester]

Geez, ya miss 5 targets with 4 of them being a simple r to l crosser and you become a has been!!!! :rotf::rotf::rotf: Trust me, anyone can be "stuck on stupid"!! :banghead::banghead:

The difference is you get stuck on stupid for a target or two while some of us stay there for much of the course :rotf: