Stock Drop Thoughts

[Reggie Bishop]

Not the Dow Jones Industrial, but the rare small bore stock drops. Just for the giggles of it how much stock drop is too much if you are searching for a rare Parker small bore? Does the rarity of the gun negate excessive stock drop? If you were searching for say a 30" graded 28 gauge or a 32" A grade 20 gauge and you have been searching for years does a 3" or 3+" drop kill the deal for you? I suppose you could ask the same question of any hard to find Parker, not just a smallbore.

Just thought it would be interesting to get opinions from members.

[Dean Romig]

Reggie, I find it so much easier to adapt myself physically to a gun with 3" or even 3 1/2" of DAH than to a gun with minimal DAH, say 2 1/4" or less. There are temporary or removable comb risers of all sorts to attain a more comfortable DAH to the individual, but there is no way around a too shallow DAH.

To me, if I love the gun with excessive DAH, I make it mine and figure it out after the fact.





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[Reggie Bishop]

Thanks Dean. I hope we hear more thoughts on this. I hear and read often comments like "that is a super nice gun that I would have bought but too much drop" or something similar.

[Bill Murphy]

I recently found a rare Parker with 4" of drop at the heel. Oddly, it feels just fine at the shoulder. I also have Parkers with less than 2" at the heel. They feel just fine too. My first Parker, a 28 gauge, was very crooked, probably 3" drop at heel. When I was a teenager, I had to put a pad on the comb to shoot it. Now, sixty years and 70 pounds later, it fits me just fine without the pad.

[Randy G Roberts]

how much stock drop is too much if you are searching for a rare Parker small bore?

For me rare would be the 32" 28 gauge in any grade or a B grade or higher 32" 20 gauge. In those instances I am going to make it shootable for me either with a stock bend, addition of some type of comb riser or have it restocked while keeping the original wood. To answer your question Reggie I suppose there is no such thing as to much drop in these very specific instances. On other guns, shooters if you will I have walked away from plenty with to much drop for me. I don't get to worked up over the DAH as it's the DAC that matters most to me.

I saw a shooter just last evening that had a micro fiber towel folded up and taped to his gun with blue masking tape to form a comb riser. Not sure I would want that on my A grade 20 though. :eek:

[Andrew Sacco]

I sold a dandy little LC 20g that I just could not shoot, the drop was about 3 1/8" if I recall. I have passed up a lot of Parkers that I feared I couldn't shoot well. That being said, I can't shoot a fitting gun well, but certainly worse with too much drop. For me Reggie, the higher the price the less drop I'll tolerate but I'm a shooter, I don't collect for price appreciation. I have a 28g Repro that I don't shoot well and I can't quite figure it out. My buddy thinks there's too little drop, I just don't think I shoot it enough, and the drop is slightly less than what I use and echoing Dean, there isn't much I can do about it. When I naturally mount it, it's like I'm looking up a "ramp" and I'm just not good enough to adapt to so many different guns. If I don't start shooting it better it's being sold.

[Reggie Bishop]

So Randy, in summary, it its a rare bird stock drop doesn't kill the deal for you even if it means bending it and changing the factory specs? I once owned a very high condition, straight stocked Fox that the previous owner had bent the stock and it no longer matched the factory card dimensions. When I got some opinions on the gun most people would say "its a shame the stock was messed with".

[Kevin McCormack]

At the price you are going to have to pay for a graded Parker or Fox 32" 20 gauge, the prospect of having to spend the money for a restock due to unshootable dimensions will become a speed bump on the highway of life, trust me. So far as a 32" Parker 28 gauge, the cost becomes almost inconsequential.

[Randy G Roberts]

So Randy, in summary, it its a rare bird stock drop doesn't kill the deal for you even if it means bending it and changing the factory specs? I once owned a very high condition, straight stocked Fox that the previous owner had bent the stock and it no longer matched the factory card dimensions. When I got some opinions on the gun most people would say "its a shame the stock was messed with".

Correct Reggie. Bending to fit me is something I will do. If my Executors or the next owner gets all worked up over it they can always bend it back. :)

[Daryl Corona]

On a smallbore, as any gauge, it's the barrels that sell the gun to me. I can live and shoot a variety of stock dimensions but if the barrels aren't solid then it's a gun that I will pass on.

[Craig Larter]

I'm with Randy, DAC is more important to me than DAH. I only buy damascus Parkers so most that I encounter have plenty of drop. I'm also like Dean, I can adopt to different drops, it may take a couple of targets to adjust. On my guns with 2" of DAC I use a Leatherman comb riser and find it very comfortable. Reggie, I would buy and have bought Parkers with stock dimensions that are not my ideal. I would not consider a gun with 3 1/4" DAH or greater. I won't bend stocks or make modifications to make them fit However, I can understand competitive shooters going down that road.

[Daniel Carter]

[QUOTE=Andrew Sacco;341857]I sold a dandy little LC 20g that I just could not shoot, the drop was about 3 1/8" if I recall. I have passed up a lot of Parkers that I feared I couldn't shoot well. That being said, I can't shoot a fitting gun well, but certainly worse with too much drop. For me Reggie, the higher the price the less drop I'll tolerate but I'm a shooter, I don't collect for price appreciation. I have a 28g Repro that I don't shoot well and I can't quite figure it out. My buddy thinks there's too little drop, I just don't think I shoot it enough, and the drop is slightly less than what I use and echoing Dean, there isn't much I can do about it. When I naturally mount it, it's like I'm looking up a "ramp" and I'm just not good enough to adapt to so many different guns. If I don't start shooting it better it's being sold.[/QUO
i have a repro 20 that i had that problem with and put a boot extension on it which lengthened the pull and brought my cheek back increasing the DAC. Problem solved. Allen Newell had the same problem on a repro and after trying mine he ordered a Galco pad from CSMC for his and i now have one also. The extension will increase the drop. My reply did not come out in the right place it is in there Andy!!

[CraigThompson]

I’ve always shot them the way they came and did very well with a plethora of different dimensions . Now however I’m finding I’ve seemed to have gravitated to the less drop crowd . I personally have never had one bent or had one restocked . But never say never I’m in negotiations as we speak with a stock maker friend for a GH 12 32” that the stock isn’t original to the gun and has been changed into far more modern dimensions .

[Randy G Roberts]

[QUOTE=Craig Larter;341865]I'm with Randy, DAC is more important to me than DAH. I only buy damascus Parkers so most that I encounter have plenty of drop. I'm also like Dean, I can adopt to different drops, it may take a couple of targets to adjust. On my guns with 2" of DAC I use a Leatherman comb riser and find it very comfortable. Reggie, I would buy and have bought Parkers with stock dimensions that are not my ideal. I would not consider a gun with 3 1/2" DAH or greater. I won't bend stocks or make modifications to make them fit However, I can understand competitive shooters going down that road.[/QUOTE

The Leatherman is one that I really like, comfortable to say the least.

[Kenny Graft]

I'm bird hunter first......wild birds that is. The action is fast and the hunter has little time to think about his gun mount, it must be fluid. That said my first line hunting guns have dimensions that fit me. I have a 5'x5' steel plate here at my home. I test my guns to see point of aim when shouldering and shooting the gun like in a hunting situation. Then adjustments can be made if needed. I have tried hunting with guns that have a little more drop than I normally shoot.....yes I shoot the roosters legs off. 1/4" makes a big difference at 35 yards! If you shoot sporting clays, gun fit is less important as most shooting is done with gun pre mounted....thats cheating in my book! Anyway thats my take on stock fit. One exception to most of this....if you only shoot one shotgun you will learn to shoot that gun fairly well. Its when you swap guns is when the trouble really starts! SXS Ohio

[Andrew Sacco]

[QUOTE=Andrew Sacco;341857]I sold a dandy little LC 20g that I just could not shoot, the drop was about 3 1/8" if I recall. I have passed up a lot of Parkers that I feared I couldn't shoot well. That being said, I can't shoot a fitting gun well, but certainly worse with too much drop. For me Reggie, the higher the price the less drop I'll tolerate but I'm a shooter, I don't collect for price appreciation. I have a 28g Repro that I don't shoot well and I can't quite figure it out. My buddy thinks there's too little drop, I just don't think I shoot it enough, and the drop is slightly less than what I use and echoing Dean, there isn't much I can do about it. When I naturally mount it, it's like I'm looking up a "ramp" and I'm just not good enough to adapt to so many different guns. If I don't start shooting it better it's being sold.[/QUO
i have a repro 20 that i had that problem with and put a boot extension on it which lengthened the pull and brought my cheek back increasing the DAC. Problem solved. Allen Newell had the same problem on a repro and after trying mine he ordered a Galco pad from CSMC for his and i now have one also. The extension will increase the drop. My reply did not come out in the right place it is in there Andy!!

I'll reply in the right place : ) Thank you, someone suggested this to me recently but I've been so busy I haven't ordered one. I have one of those Neoprene slip on ones I could try that I guess in the interim. Also it gives the benefit of protecting the checkered butt plate. Thanks again I'll give it a go.

[edgarspencer]

Kenny took the words out of my mouth. I only hunt with 2 or 3 different guns that are “right there” when I snap to. Shooting a mounted gun at targets isn’t the game I most enjoy, but it helps with the guns that aren’t just right. I guess I can shoot different drops better than I can guns too short, or too long.

[Mike Koneski]

If the gun is a 10, 12 or 16g and has over 3” of drop I’ll probably pass. I want guns to shoot and want to dump a lot more $$ into one of them since there are more of those out there. Now if we’re talking a 20, 28 or .410, that’s a totally different story.

I’d also have no problem buying a gun that’s too high at comb and heel. I can lower a stock to fit me. I also don’t care if stock dimensions do not match a letter, I care about shooting.

[Reggie Bishop]

Most seem to be responding from a shooters standpoint which is great. What about from a collecting standpoint? I like long barrels, small bores with lots of original condition. Hard to find. So when I run across one I am very interested despite stock dimensions. If for example a nice high condition BHE 20 came along with 30” or 32” barrels I am interested despite drop at heel or comb because they are in my sweet spot. Keep the responses coming!

[Andrew Sacco]

I have never made money collecting cars, guns, cameras, wine, women or whiskey and I'm not about to start now.

[Stan Hillis]

If you were searching for say a 30" graded 28 gauge or a 32" A grade 20 gauge and you have been searching for years does a 3" or 3+" drop kill the deal for you?

Absolutely not. And, I too will have it bent if it's too much one way or the other. I'm all for originality, but bending a stock isn't something that can't be "undone". And, like Dean, I can handle too much DAH a lot easier than I can too little. I refuse to float targets or birds because of a gun stocked too high.

I have 32" barreled small bores, 16s and 20s, and I'm fortunate that they all are stocked like I need ........... somewhere around 2 5/8" to 2 3/4" DAH.

[Jay Oliver]

I think this is one of those things that you know in the first 30 seconds of handling the gun. I have gotten used to the 3"DAH in all of my hammer guns(and don't even notice it anymore). LOP is more of a deal breaker for me. I have a 32" barrel 12ga. grade 2 lifer with 3 1/4" DAH that is just wonderful, with both targets and hunting.

So my advice would be to handle the gun first and you'll either love it or hate it.

I do think there are collectors who are looking for the grade and rarity of a gun first and shootablility second. That's fine and I respect it, but I am just not wired that way with most of my guns, there are always exceptions though. A truly unique Parker may need to follow you or me home regardless of shootability.

[CraigThompson]

Kenny took the words out of my mouth. I only hunt with 2 or 3 different guns that are “right there” when I snap to. Shooting a mounted gun at targets isn’t the game I most enjoy, but it helps with the guns that aren’t just right. I guess I can shoot different drops better than I can guns too short, or too long.

While I buy into the one man one gun theory and the same could be said with three as you say . But I shoot about ten guns on a sporting 3 or 4 day event . But I don’t usually shoot mounted gun . And while I’m not perfect with any of them I truely believe shooting for now fifty years with whatever landed in my hands perfect fit isn’t as crucial to me as it is to others . I’m not saying perfectly fitted guns aren’t a good thing , I just think over the course of years perhaps I’ve picked up an ability to adapt to not quite right guns easier than a lot of folks .

[Craig Larter]

Reggie: Old time condition collectors tell me back in the early days of collecting they cared very little about dimensions--it was all about condition condition. Few were shooting vintage SxS's frequently.
With advent of collector associations, vintage SxS competitions, low pressure ammo, and SxS centric publications etc. collectors today are more focused on fit and shooting.
I shoot most of my vintage SxS's but I do have a few high condition bench mark guns. With bench mark guns it's all about condition for me.

[Reggie Bishop]

I have never made money collecting cars, guns, cameras, wine, women or whiskey and I'm not about to start now.

I don't think most collectors are in it for the money. I don't consider myself a collector of anything and certainly not an investor in classic shotguns. I invest in real property and mutual funds. I have a handful of classic shotguns because I enjoy the search, I enjoy the nostalgia, and I enjoy days afield with sporting dogs and shotguns!

[Craig Larter]

The best shooters I know have the ability to HARD FOCUS on the bird which is way more important than perfect fit in my opinion.

[Garry L Gordon]

An interesting thread. I enjoy reading about the idiosyncratic nature of collector strategies and comparing them with my own (which have evolved significantly over time).

I have no wisdom or insight into the question beyond the personal experience that hard-held collecting strategies sometime become irrelevant when faced with a beautiful gun.:bowdown::banghead::crying:

FWIW, I think that if a person has more than two of something, that makes him a collector. :rotf:

P.S. I've learned that very few things last as long as regret.

[CraigThompson]

FWIW, I think that if a person has more than two of something, that makes him a collector. :rotf:

.

Only thing I collect are insults and I seem to be pretty high volume receiving those :rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf: Everything else I consider an ACCUMULATION :whistle::rolleyes::rotf:

[Garry L Gordon]

Only thing I collect are insults and I seem to be pretty high volume receiving those :rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

Hey, Craig, a collection is a collection, but my guess is your insults will not appreciate in value over time.:whistle:

As for "accumulating;" it's like pronouncing a word two different ways (poe-tay-tow/poe-tah-tow).

1 : something that has accumulated or has been accumulated an impressive accumulation of knowledge. 2 : the action or process of accumulating something : the state of being or having accumulated the steady accumulation of snow.

[Mike Koneski]

The best shooters I know have the ability to HARD FOCUS on the bird which is way more important than perfect fit in my opinion.

Nice summation Craig! A shooter can adapt to a particular gun and fit. Many of us have done that over the years. There are very few guns/dimensions that I can't adapt to, LOP being the biggest obstacle. DAH does present an issue at times, but once again, we can adapt. That said I still like to choose my doubles with dimensions more suited to good shooting and a closer fit.

[Bob Brown]

I have one that makes this more than an academic question for me. Its a VHE 20 with 30" bbls, 2 7/8" chambers, Lyman ivory bead, 14 1/2" straight grip stock with Silvers pad, 6 lb 6 oz. All good until is comes to the 3 1/2" drop at heel. It's fine for shooting clays when I can set up with the heads up stance needed to shoot it well. I switch guns a lot when hunting grouse in the heavy bush my area and I've gotten in the habit of shooting fast. Unfortunately I can say I've literally never hit a bird with the first shot with that gun. I've also got a Fox AE 20, a L.C. Smith 00E 20, and a several British and European guns that get rotated in, so after I picked up a VHE 20 28" with higher dimensions last year the 30" never made it out again. Would I buy another with similar dimensions? Probably, but I'm weak that way.

[Stan Hillis]

I agree that a seasoned shooter can adapt to different dims on guns, but the RIGHT dims will up the score in the long run. I had a dear friend, now deceased, that was a serious sporting clays shooter. He really wanted to improve, but was stuck in the very low 70s, out of 100. He shot a high stocked gun that required floating the bird/target in order to score. A mutual friend tried to explain to him the futility of doing that, when he could shoot a gun that didn't require it. He was insistent that floating the bird was okay, and to prove it he took aim at a pine cone on a limb, floated it the right amount, and centered the pine cone. He turned around, looked at our buddy and said, "See?". Our buddy replied "Yeah, it works about 70% of the time, doesn't it?". Our friend dropped his head and looked embarrassed as the reality of it sunk in.

[Randy G Roberts]

Just this spring I tried shooting a gun that had too much drop in it for me. I was able to shoot the first shot successfully by keeping my head a little high, I was even able to be successful on lazy report pairs where I had time to position my head correctly. On true pairs that required a quick second shot I was a mess. Instinct dug in and my head went back down on the stock on the second bird. That stock has now been bent and it is a much more pleasurable Parker to shoot. Others are probably more disciplined than I.

[James L. Martin]

For me it depends on the intended use of the gun. For a clays gun I need a higher stock say around 14 3/4 - 1 3/8 - 2 1/4 For a grouse and woodcock gun my ideal is around 14 - 1 5/8 - 2 3/4. Anything lower than 3" dah I would have to put a comb pad on.