16 gauge Trojans with 3" chambers?

[Francis Morin]

A factory special order? I just received my RIA catalogue- on page 189- lot no. 2345- they have a 16 ga./ Trojan sn. 238603- 26" barrels- LOP 14" and 3" chambers-- this by serial number must be a later series Trojan.

Were there any 3" 16 gauge shells available back when this gun was made? Or do you suspect someone lengthened the std. 2 &3/4" chambers to 3"? If so, why?

They also state that Parker made aprox. 21,997 Trojans in 16 gauge--:whistle:

[Larry Frey]

Francis,
Parker would make any chamber length the customer requested on guns made to order and not made for stock. I'm not sure when 16 gage ammo became available in 3" length but the letter below shows a gun much earlier than the one you ask about and the owner requested 2 7/8" chambers most likely to fire 3" shells.

[Dean Romig]

I would be very suspicious of a Trojan having 3" chambers and would be surprised if factory documentation of such could be produced.

[Francis Morin]

I would be very suspicious of a Trojan having 3" chambers and would be surprised if factory documentation of such could be produced.- My guess- strictly a "WAG' is improper reading of the chamber depth gauge- this is listed as a 26" barreled gun with Mod and Full chokes- now I am comparing "Anvils to Aardvarks" but they also list a 12 Ga. Ithaca NID with 30" barrels choked Full and Extra Full. I'm not an Ithaca man, but know the 0 through 4 numerical code they used- 4 being Full- so again, a possible mis-read of the choke muzzle gauge-

But all shotgun barrels have some 'mystery" and the final test is how they pattern both on paper and on moving airborne targets, whether clay or feathers-

I have a 1948 era M12 Pigeon Trap 12 ga. older milled rib- 30" barrel and instead of the usual Full it is marked Imp. Mod. and it patterns 85% at 40 yards in a 36" circle on paper with the old Federal Champion paper Trap load of 7 and 1/2 shot size-but shoot a newer AA Trap load of No. 8 size shot in it- same criteria- and it only patterns 70%--:bigbye:

[charlie cleveland]

i have seen a few boxes of 3 inch 16 ga shells factory loaded with heavier payloads than 2 3/4 in shells..and the shells i seenwere made in the time when the trogan gun was first made....its possible that this could be a 3 inch chambered gun factory....boy would a fellow kick his self in passing up a 3 inch chambered 16 if its factory done.... charlie

[Dick Miller]

Not pertinent to Parkers, but I own a 1907 2E Smith that has 3" chambers and is so stamped on the barrel flats. In addition, I know of a higher grade post-'13 Smith made in 1914 that also is a 3" gun and has the factory "football"-shaped 3" stamp on the flats.
Thanks to Destry I also have 3- 3" 16 ga. shells---2 Peters and 1 Ajax. From memory, 3" 16 ga guns were fairly common around the turn of the century on the Continent, so I suppose the major domestic manufacturers offered the chambering as well, though uncommon.
My 2E is my "go-to" gun for doves, and recently provided me with a limit of mallards over decoys using Hevi-shot Classic Doubles.

[Francis Morin]

I am guessing these were paper hulls you saw. Any chance you might recall the brand? The Trojan grade followed the AH Fox Sterlingworth on the market as a economy grade gun, prior to our involvement in WW1- So perhaps these shells you saw predate 1920?

I have read about the special order DHE 20 gauges with 3" chambers and either 30" or even 32" barrels for a Calif. private duck hunting club, so perhaps the 3" 20 paper shells were also of that era?

If I could see the barrels against a good light and "read them"- it might answer the question- as the taper or the lead of the forcing cones found in double guns from that era tend to be different (a tighter angle) than later guns made after plastic hulls and wads, let alone steel shot, became the standard-

Speaking of hulls, my friend- I still have the 100 plus 12 Rem green once fired loads boxed- all I need is a shipping address- so, whenever you wish, send me a PM on that--

They have about 5 Colts in the pending auction at RIA- Feb 19-20. Before I jump into the pond here, has anyone reading this thread ever bought anything (doesn't have to be Colt handguns) from RIA and care to comment- either openly- or to me via PM? Thanks!!:bigbye:

[charlie cleveland]

the shells were of the 1930 s vintage and i believe they were peters with the flying duck on front of box...i wanted those shell but they were out of my budget....i could probably lokate the guy who had them if need be....francis will send you a pm with my address charlie

[Dean Romig]

I guess the point I was trying to make in my previous post is that we must keep in mind that we're talking about a Trojan. These guns were made to a standard and with very, very few exceptions, these standards were not deviated from except by special order or request. The likelyhood of 3" chambers requested for a Trojan (which was basically a hardware store gun ordered simply for stock - in the case of a 16 ga. they came in two variations, 26" or 28" with maybe a few 30" and that's about it) is extremely unlikely. That's why I said I would be surprised if factory documentation would support the 3" chambers.

[Dave Noreen]

Three-inch shells have been around just about as long as cartridge shotguns have been around. Prior to repeaters, which needed a certain length shell to function reliably, there were a plethora of shell lengths. In my 1903 UMC catalogue there were 12-gauge paper shells 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch. The 16-gauge was available 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. The 20-gauge was offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. In those days these longer shells didn't pack a heavier payload, but more and better wadding for a better gas seal which many serious Pigeon shooters thought to be an advantage. The first time I see the longer shells packing a heavier load was around 1912 for the 3-inch 20-gauge for the famous Widgeon Duck Club Parker Bros. guns and the J. Stevens A & T Co. pump gun. These 3-inch 20-gauge shells packed 2 1/2 drams equiv and 7/8 ounce of shot as opposed to the max load of 2 1/4 drams equiv and 7/8 ounce of shot in the standard 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell!!! Several of the early Ansley H. Fox graded 20-gauge guns, circa 1912-13 were chambered for the 3-inch shell of that period. WW-I and the rise of repeaters requiring a specific length shell to operate reliably did away with this plethora of shell lengths briefly. We have found nine 3-inch chambered graded 16-gauge guns and one ordered chambered for 2 7/8 inch shells in the surviving Fox records. I seriously doubt a "made-for-stock" gun like a Trojan would be made with longer chambers. Some time back, Drew Hause published links to some old magazine articles about Parker Bros.'s A.W. DuBray hunting in the South with a 2 7/8 inch 16-gauge.

While my collection of ammo company paper from the 1930s is far from complete, the only listing for a 3-inch 16-gauge shell I've found during the 1930s is in the 1934 Winchester catalogue where they offer their old style Leader shell, which was loaded with bulk or dense smokeless powders, in a 3-inch 16-gauge shell. The 3-inch 16-gauge shell Stdat shows in the Model 21 chapter of his Winchester shotguns and shells book is a Leader. However, the maximum load offered in the 16-gauge Leader was 1 ounce of shot, while the newer style Winchester Super Speed shell loaded with progressive burning powder offered a 2 9/16 inch shell with a 3 dram equiv., 1 1/8 ounce load!?!

[Francis Morin]

I went to the Stadt book and you are right- in the M21 chapter page 91 is shown the 3" unfired Winchester 16 ga. Leader shell, and a 1 ounce capacity- Then you mention later a 1 & 1/8th oz. load in the older 2 & 9/16" length 16 ga. shells-- Just for the heck of it-- let's take two identical VH 16 Parkers- std no. 1 size frame- 28" barrels, call them a 'matched pair'-- one has the 2 & 9/16" chambers, its brother has the 3"-- I would much rather fire the 1 oz. load in the 3" chambered gun, than the other- and I'll bet you'd see more uniform patterns on paper as well.

On balance, I tend to agree with Brother Romig here- the Trojan was the hardware store stock model, and except way later on in its life when they offered a single trigger, it was a basic boxlock extractor double with excellent function and plain finish- So never say never, but as Parker apparently liked to run the receivers through production in lots of 100, probably same for the barrels (and the lack of the std. Doll's Head on the Trojan) selecting a set from production for longer chambers- would entail more paperwork, etc.

I'll even go further- Once the Parker Trojan was introduced, it gradually became Parker's best selling grade- just as Houchin's book shows the Field Grade LC Smith accounted for 80% of Hunter Arms output-- If the Trojan and the VH(E) both came out on the open market the exact same year, and with the appropriate retail price differential, my guess is- the Trojan grade would have been the all-time sales leader-

If I were somehow transformed into a key management position with Parker Brothers- and was in charge from 1900 to 1930-- I would of course keep the Trojan and Vulcan- then the GH(E), DH(E) and AHE-- with the AAHE and A-1 Special and Invincible only on non-cancellable special order with a 60% downpayment on such orders--I would have phased out anything larger than 10 ga., moved away from the Hammer guns and into proof steel barrels over Damascus or twist earlier- Frame sizes would be Nos. 2 (std 10 and heavy 12) 1 & 1/2 for std 12- 1 for 16, and 0 for 20, 00 for 28 and 000 for the .410 bore-

Just reading Dave's excellent reply with all the details of the early shell variations- a monster for inventory and production control- ditto perhaps Parker's inventory of machined parts, fixtures and gauges- Wow!!

Thanks to all of you for your contributions- I may well be bidding on a few Colts, and I'll ask for the final hammer price on this Trojan offered by RIA--

[Bill Murphy]

There is no proof that RIA measured the chambers correctly. If someone is truly interested in the gun, they would request a PGCA letter. There is a possibility that a special order chamber length would be noted in the stock book entry.