Thoughts on pellet counts for clays?

[Frank Srebro]

Let me start out by saying I know some readers might comment how their 3/4-ounce loads in 12-gauge will absolutely crush clays at any range because of the short shot column, less pellet deformation on setback and maybe even some spooky dust. :)

But with that said, two friends are shooting together using tightly choked vintage 12-gauge guns on a sporting course with some close cupcakes, but other clays are tricky, far out and on edge. Also a few midis and chandelles. Tom is shooting 7/8 ounce loads with 7-1/2 shot (~296 pellets) and Harry is using 1-ounce loads of 8's (~410 pellets). Both loads at about the same 1150-1170 velocity.

Both are good shots and Tom does 91/100 and Harry comes in with 96/100. Both shooters had a few X's on the score sheet from lucky target "chips". Tom congrats Harry very sincerely but also funs him that the extra 114 pellets in his shells surely helped out on scoring that 96/100. Harry comes back to his friend Tom that in this scenario the difference in pellet count is irrelevant. Tom counters by asking Harry if Digweed or Faulds use anything but the heaviest permissible loads for serious sporting and why that is?

What do you think? Did Harry have “an edge” in this match? :corn:

[Rick Losey]

no science behind this opinion

but - i would think the denser 8s load would result in more powdered/clean break targets but with choke and PATTERN SIZE being equal (doubt that), for scored targets there wouldn't be much advantage

[Dean Romig]

I’m going with irrelevant in this case Frank. Too many variables to make it a scientific experiment. Human error comes into play for the most part. Secondly, not every shot ‘cloud’ is identical. A hole in the pattern can actually occur even with identical loadings within each of the two you show as examples. There is a great deal of shooter skill involved - in fact it’s likely close to 98 or 99 percent but there’s that 1 or 2 percent of luck involved too.

Personally, if I were seriously shooting for score I would choose the denser pattern because I rely more on luck than my own shooting skill… or lack thereof.





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[Andrew Sacco]

I speak from a position of much less knowledge than others on here and since I tend to look at things "scientifically" if possible, I would agree this is purely hypothetical in nature but a great question. I would think there's an edge to the greater pellet count, but the only way would be to have Harry shoot 1,000 rounds with one load, then the other, with the same gun, and then compare. Of course if you're so inclined you can start calculating "power" and null hypothesis and all other sorts of things which give me hives. My best round at skeet was with a box of 1/2 ounce 20g shells loaded by a friend. He told me afterwards what I was shooting. Next round with 7/8 oz I crapped the bed. And that's how she goes.

[Dean Romig]

I took a screen shot of this post by FallCreekFan and Rocketman on the doublegun forum because it is somewhat pertinent to the subject question, this being relative to pattern efficiency.


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[Mike Koneski]

I disagree with the pattern plate theory as a shot string on a moving target is a 3 dimensional shape whereas the pattern plate is two dimensional. If one is shooting at a standing turkey then that pattern plate will definitely show what your hit on a turkey head/neck will be. The only thing the pattern plate will truly tell you is POI if you have a consistent mount. :corn: Outside of checking for POI on a gun, I never pattern anything but a turkey gun for that static shot.

I'll bet if Harry shoots 7/8 oz loads he'll still post his 96/100.

[todd allen]

I would give the advantage to the number 8 shot. Pattern density/coverage = more odds of a kill.
As for the 3 dimensional shot cluster: The shot is going so much faster than the target that the whole column has passed through or by the target in an instant, making the pattern results quite two dimensional.
You could do the math on this.
Target is traveling at say, 35 - 50 MPH
Shot is traveling at, let's say 1000 FPS, or 682 MPH
I'm not going to go through the whole exercise, but the target, even at 50 MPH, has moved very little vs. the 682 MPH of the shot.

[Kevin McCormack]

Harry had the edge but Tom can compensate without going to the heavier 1 oz. load. All Tom needs to do is order out some Spooky Dust Minimal Load Ballistic Enhancer (SDMLBE) from Ballistics Products. It's a little pricey at $74.99 per 6 oz. can, but compared to the retail price of other reloading components lately (not to mention factory ammo when and where you can find it), it will give him the edge he needs.

[Tom Pellegrini]

IMHO you can mull over all the science. You can mull over all the number of pellets of one size to another. You can mull over all the velocity of the ammo compared to the speed of the targets, if you have some way of knowing the speed of the targets.
It all boils down to one thing and one thing only, WHEN YOU ARE ON YOU ARE ON.

[Mike Koneski]

I would give the advantage to the number 8 shot. Pattern density/coverage = more odds of a kill.
As for the 3 dimensional shot cluster: The shot is going so much faster than the target that the whole column has passed through or by the target in an instant, making the pattern results quite two dimensional.
You could do the math on this.
Target is traveling at say, 35 - 50 MPH
Shot is traveling at, let's say 1000 FPS, or 682 MPH
I'm not going to go through the whole exercise, but the target, even at 50 MPH, has moved very little vs. the 682 MPH of the shot.

Well, I will disagree on the 2-D regarding speed of the pattern. The tests were done years ago and there is such a difference between the length/spread of the shot column at one point in time that it does make a difference.

Just have to face it, the 91/100 shooter is not as good as the 96/100 shooter no matter whether the charge is 7/8 or 1 oz. I'd put my $$ on Harry. :bowdown:

[Mike Koneski]

Harry had the edge but Tom can compensate without going to the heavier 1 oz. load. All Tom needs to do is order out some Spooky Dust Minimal Load Ballistic Enhancer (SDMLBE) from Ballistics Products. It's a little pricey at $74.99 per 6 oz. can, but compared to the retail price of other reloading components lately (not to mention factory ammo when and where you can find it), it will give him the edge he needs.

Kevin, is that the spray can or the buffer container?

[Andrew Sacco]

I would give the advantage to the number 8 shot. Pattern density/coverage = more odds of a kill.
As for the 3 dimensional shot cluster: The shot is going so much faster than the target that the whole column has passed through or by the target in an instant, making the pattern results quite two dimensional.
You could do the math on this.
Target is traveling at say, 35 - 50 MPH
Shot is traveling at, let's say 1000 FPS, or 682 MPH
I'm not going to go through the whole exercise, but the target, even at 50 MPH, has moved very little vs. the 682 MPH of the shot.

A re-read of Bob Brister might help. I do believe there is a factor with target speed there. I'm not a great shot, but I know a few really talented shooters. NONE of them pattern to count pellets, they only use a plate for checking barrel regulation and POI. One is an older gentleman who was on the 2004 Olympic trap team who said you get more benefit from a HIGH QUALITY nickel plated factory load and being on target than you ever will from counting pellets and trying to predict patterns. I think as a whole the Europeans are better at realizing this than we are. Can't say I would disagree with simplification. Back to the original question, FOR ME, I would choose a slightly higher pellet count to offset my suckage, whether it matters or not who knows.

[Frank Srebro]

Perhaps Tom and Harry can have a rematch in coming weeks, shooting together with the guns in this vignette and using the same load either 7/8 ounce of 7-1/2’s or 1 ounce of 8’s. Just sayin .....

[Daryl Corona]

Kevin, is that the spray can or the buffer container?

I've got a container of the buffer in the handy gel formula and all you have to do is roll the shot in it to coat it, then bake it in an oven at 400* for one hour, let it cool and load away.:nono::nono: I'll have some for sale at HH.

Once again the old axiom of; It ain't the arrow it's the Indian holds true here.

Frank may as well have mentioned my name as one of the 3/4oz. proponents as I just enjoy the total lack of recoil and the way it breaks targets. I load nothing but 7 1/2's and like my good friend Tommy P said "when you're on, you're on.

Yeah, my money is on Harry.

[Dave Noreen]

What would George Digweed do????

[Mike Koneski]

King Digweed would shoot from the hip with his full choke bbls at 100 yards and break every target. Just sayin'. :rotf:

[scott kittredge]

I shoot all 7 1/2s. I found with alot of test patterns, the bigger the shot the tighter the patterns. But that what i found and that 7 1/2s shot better than 8s in 3/4, 7/8ths and 1 oz loads at 1150 fps.
Scott

[Daryl Corona]

I shoot all 7 1/2s. I found with alot of test patterns, the bigger the shot the tighter the patterns. But that what i found and that 7 1/2s shot better than 8s in 3/4, 7/8ths and 1 oz loads at 1150 fps.
Scott

That has been my experience too Scott. I only use the pattern board for POI. I can tell from target breaks how effective my loads are. I only load 7 1/2's as I believe there is more energy in them than 8's. This is my opinion and everyone has own their favorite load, shot size and opinion.

I shoot every week with a nice bunch of guys and just today of of them asked me what choke I was using on one particularly long bird which turned out to be a midi which made it look further out than it was. He knows I shoot 3/4oz of 7 1/2's for everything. It was a full choked M12 12ga.

This gentleman is a constant choke changer and asked me if I didn't wish that I had a more open choke for pair of incomers at 20yds. Of course not why would you ask? His solution is 3 separate shot charges. 7/8oz of 8 1/2's for those close in babies, 1 oz. of 8's for mid range targets and an 1 1/8 of 7 1/2's for any thing over 30yds. I looked him straight in the eye and asked him; "If the 7 1/2's can break a target at 40 yds then they certainly can break a target at 25 yds." Why confuse yourself? He paused for a moment then said "I never looked at it that way"

We'll see if it sinks in over the week.

[Dean Romig]

This gentleman is a constant choke changer and asked me if I didn't wish that I had a more open choke for pair of incomers at 20yds. Of course not why would you ask? His solution is 3 separate shot charges. 7/8oz of 8 1/2's for those close in babies, 1 oz. of 8's for mid range targets and an 1 1/8 of 7 1/2's for any thing over 30yds.



Ya really can overthink these things... :shock:





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[Daryl Corona]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;341346]Ya really can overthink these things... :shock:

And that is where the trouble begins. KISS.

[Bruce Hering]

I have heard this kind of topic of discussion for a long, long time.

Here are my thoughts: From the scores given and a possibility to replicate the day, time, etc. I suspect the higher score would get the higher score regardless of ammo. The ability of that individual to read his targets and put his gun/shot load where it needed to be should remain the same and thus that shooter would duplicate (or close) his performance.

I would also propose that each shooter must practice with the gun, choke and load(s) said shooter intends to use in order to gain familiarity with said performance. When I was coaching my collegiate shotgun team I had several top shooters that would screw in one set or one choke tube (semi autos) and go through a round with one type of ammo and get the job done. Most of these young folks has shot 1000's of competition targets by the time they got to me, so I felt comfortable letting them continue with their chosen means and methods. So, I guess, if ya know your gun and how it performs and you can read targets well (sporting clays and FITASC) you should be good to go.

Now, for my own shooting I have several different loads that I use but that is because different guns like different loads. In my modern guns I like a 1oz. load of 8's for most everything until ya get that long squirrely target and then I go to 7.5's. These are loads traveling about 1250-1300 fps. but I do shoot a lot of "bunker loads" 7/8's oz. of 7.5's traveling from 1350-1360. For my old guns I like to stay at 1oz. @ 1180-1200 on a clays course or trap field. I am going to experiment with 7/8's oz. loads for the older guns as reload components become available in both 2 3/4's and 2.5 inch ammo.

I really feel that this is a case of the indian and not the arrow nor the bow string for that matter. If a shooters perception of target and mental understanding of what the target is doing (sporting clays) and is shooting from the subconscious once the "plan" is made then he/she will likely break the target. Shoot from the conscious mind and you are going to have problems....

JMHO

[Craig Larter]

Shoot a 8ga and and ya never worry about pellet count.:rotf:

[Stan Hillis]

If money was on the line my $$$ would be on the 1 oz. load of 8s ..............everytime. Whether someone else was doing the shooting, or me. There are just too many holes in a pattern of 3/4 oz. 7 1/2s at distance. An edgy target can get through. Another thing ......... I've picked up too many targets on the course that had two and even three holes in them but didn't have a "visible" chip off of them. Multiple pellet strikes is imperative and more pellets is better here, IMO.

Neither guy was using my favorite sporting load ............... 1 1/8 oz. hard 8s (or 7 1/2s on long rabbits) at 1150 fps. I don't like chips, they build no confidence. I like smoke balls.

[Victor Wasylyna]

Once again the old axiom of; It ain't the arrow it's the Indian holds true here.

Most shooters out there would be much better off if they focused more on trying to be the Indian and less on the composition of the arrow. Spreader loads are not the answer. Go shoot some clays.

-Victor

[John Davis]

As they say, I shoot 1 1/8 oz. because they won't let me shoot 1 1/4. And I shoot 8 shot in 16 yrd singles and first bird of doubles, 7 1/2 shot in handicap and second bird of doubles. I do all of this because the small muscle between my ears tells me so. Doesn't matter what the science is. If you believe it, it works.

[Stan Hillis]

I do all of this because the small muscle between my ears tells me so. Doesn't matter what the science is. If you believe it, it works.

There is no replacement for confidence in your load and equipment ........... none.

[Tom Pellegrini]

Most shooters out there would be much better off if they focused more on trying to be the Indian and less on the composition of the arrow. Spreader loads are not the answer. Go shoot some clays.

-Victor

When I started some 10 years ago one of the gentlemen I shot with gave me some great advice. He said "I watch you when we start on the course. You get in the box, call for the bird and shoot the bird. As we get half way through I se you thinking more. Don't think just call for the bird and shoot the bird. The less you think the better you shoot."
As mentioned before in this thread, try to be a better indian.

[Bob Brown]

I think in most cases the better pattern density of the 8s would allow the option of a more open choke and a larger effective pattern giving an advantage to Harry. On the other hand far more shooters are affected by recoil of a heavier load that would admit to it or even realize it. A slight hesitation in the swing or follow through, a bit of a tug on the trigger, a blink or even tiny tightening of the muscles can cause misses that get blamed on holes in patterns. Probably not a big issue for a 96 or a 91 average shooter, but no one is immune.