1888 Grade 2 Hammer Won Today:

[Bruce P Bruner]

I was the only bidder on this 1888 #1 frame Parker 30" 12 gauge today. I'm as pleased as punch. When I saw the butt stock figure in the wood I just had to have it. The bores aren't perfect but when I'm 133 years old my bores won't be perfect either. Barrels have no dents or cuts, a very good thing. Seller said Cylinder x Cylinder with his drop in gauge but that's okay, we'll pattern it and find out what the cardboard says. It's said to be tight on face and locks up solid. Not that these old beaters bring much but at $1K OTD my addiction is cured for the moment. The stock is almost worth the chips laid out, unbelievable furniture for a Grade 2. Yup, there's certain risk not knowing the detailed wall thickness but when I decide to roll the dice there's no stopping me. I can't decide whether to have a magician redo the barrels or just shoot and enjoy it as is. There's no rush, better to decide when the gun is in hand anyway. The PGCA will undoubtedly receive another $40.00 donation for the details. Please pardon Mr. Bell's thumb. Observations anyone?

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, let us know what you find out for your $40.00. Nice big barrels for a one frame.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Looks like a "D" grade checkering pattern on the forend.

[Bruce P Bruner]

Looks like a "D" grade checkering pattern on the forend.
Correct observation, the forend is a replacement. Coincidentally, the replacement forend dates to the same year as the shotgun. At least the replacement is a pretty reasonable match for the buttstock wood. I was fully aware, disclosure was forthright, and obvious in the photograph. It won't affect using the shotgun.

[Mills Morrison]

Very nice. I saw that one and seriously considered it. The wood is to die for

[Bruce P Bruner]

Very nice. I saw that one and seriously considered it. The wood is to die for
I'm very fortunate you didn't bid. Yes, that wood is unbelievable. My top bid was $1125.50 and I got it for the opening price of $887.50 plus the TAX GB charges now. 20 minutes after the auction closed I got a call from a local shop saying the HK tactical USP I had on consignment had sold for my asking price. So after paying for the Parker I still came out $50.00 ahead. I love being lucky. Additionally it's a big plus to have the shotgun delivered to my front door.

[Randy G Roberts]

Congratulations on your purchase of a fine looking gun. Actually wood of that grade during that era on those guns is not uncommon at all. Another thing, when those chokes are measured with drop-in gauges on the hammer guns they may actually end up measuring a little tighter. Not always, but I would almost bet it will be tighter than what the drop in shows. Congrats :bowdown:

[Dean Romig]

It looks like it might be jiust a whisker off-face but that can be corrected.





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[edgarspencer]

Drop-in choke gauges don’t tell you much on an old gun. They are based on a .729” bore, but guns of this era often have larger bores.

[Bruce P Bruner]

It looks like it might be just a whisker off-face but that can be corrected.
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Hard to know for sure with photography. I have in the past cut a piece of paper to cover the hinge pin and impregnated it with grease and that little bit of off- face disappears. It's not a permanent solution by any means but you can get by. I'm not recommending this "patch" but it worked well until a better solution could be had.

[Bruce P Bruner]

Drop-in choke gauges don’t tell you much on an old gun. They are based on a .729” bore, but guns of this era often have larger bores.
I am in full agreement. I don't know when barrel "choke" was incorporated but as I understand it, the bore restriction on the older guns could start quite a ways back from the muzzle. Inside 40 yards even cylinder bores are effective from my research.

[Brian Dudley]

I was going to comment on the forend, and I was going to comment on the choking. But those have both already been done. And correctly.
So, simply, decent buy!

[Randy G Roberts]

This is an 1881 Grade 2 (12 Ga-32")with very similar wood after a bath in mineral spirits to remove the grime and a coat of Timberluxe.

[Dean Romig]

Most folks use the appropriate thickness of shim stock cut and shaped to fit.





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[Dean Romig]

Inside 40 yards even cylinder bores are effective from my research.


I couldn’t agree more with this observation. Edgar and I were discussing this very topic yesterday. Even out to 45 or more yards.





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[Mike Franzen]

I hope you’ll post pics once you have it.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Nice gun Bruce, Fantastic wood, enjoy your new purchase! most 130 year olds have had a few modifications so what the heck! Gary

[Bruce P Bruner]

Roger Q. Mills ordered this Top Lever Hammer Gun in 1888 at the age of 56.
He left quite a distinguished legacy in the South. It's only fitting that this shotgun was delivered to me from Texas.
I share this information to the PGCA membership in honor of Roger Quarles Mills.

Provenance:

Roger Q. Mills, son of a successful tobacco grower, was born March 30, 1832, in Todd County, Kentucky. As a young boy he moved with his family to Christian County, Kentucky. He attended a small rural school in the neighborhood and later a high school noted in the area. It was here that he learned to debate, and it was in these youthful debates that was laid the foundation of clear thinking and force of address that so marked him in later years.
He settled in Jefferson Texas in 1849 when he was seventeen years of age, traveling by steamboat down the Mississippi River and up the Red River, arriving at Jefferson, where he clerked in a store owned by Mr. August May.

Mills had a sister who was married to Judge Reuben A. Reeves, and lived in Palestine, Texas. To locate near them had been the object of Mills coming to Texas. Therefore in the spring of 1850 he bought a horse and moved to Palestine. Here, under the guidance of Judge Reeves, he began the study of law. He also worked as a clerk in the local post office at a salary of $8.00 per month.

Dr. Jowers, a member of the legislature from Anderson County, was so taken with Roger Q. that he had him go to Austin, where he secured his election as engrossing clerk (Copying of official documents) of the lower House. When he was twenty years old he took the examination before the Supreme Court and was admitted to the bar.

Mills was a full-fledged lawyer when he moved to Corsicana in 1852. He hung out his shingle and began practicing law and soon, because of close application to business, and his natural ability, he was one of the rising young lawyers in the area. Always interested in civic affairs he was appointed road overseer, and among some of his duties was the construction of a road to Waxhachie and the building of a bridge over Cryer Creek.

On January 7, 1858 Mills married Caroline R. Jones. The Jones family moved to a 2,500 acre ranch they had purchased in 1856 near Frost, Texas. The little community known as Jones' Ranch opened a rural school in 1888 and the first school teacher was Miss Frankie Long.

Politics began to interest Roger Q. and in 1859 he was elected to the legislature. As in all other endeavors he gave whole hearted attention and performed his duties so well he earned Sam Houston's respect and admiration.

On the courthouse square in Corsicana there stands today virtually no reminders of the Civil War and post Civil War period, 1860-1872. But the archives of the State of Texas and Navarro County indicate that stirring historical events occurred here, particularly on a corner of the square where once there stood a Confederate quartermaster warehouse and later a Federal occupation encampment. This historicity of this site, then occupied by an ordinary commercial storehouse, began to take shape when the quietude of the 13-year-old city became greatly disturbed as a result of the national election of 1860.

The Navarro Express, one of three newspapers published at that time in Corsicana, brought out its next issue with incendiary head lines: "Lincoln Elected, the North Has Gone Overwhelmingly for Negro Equality and Southern Vassalage: Southern Men, will you submit to this Degradation?" Immediate response was to haul down the Stars and Stripes on the courthouse, and run up the Lone Star Flag of Texas. This was done to the accompaniment of ringing church bells and the firing of anvils, along with cheers from the people. A few weeks later on February 21, a state election gave the people opportunity to vote for or against secession and Navarro County voted 631 - 38 in favor of the rupture. Corsicana at that time had a population of 1200; the entire county about 6000. In the county there were about 2000 slaves, but only 300 of these were in Corsicana, a fact that indicates that most of them were employed on the farms of settlers who grew cotton on the good black soil. Most of these settlers were from the South, and entertained strong Southern sentiments.

Mills was an orthodox Southerner and as early as 1860 he favored separation from the Union, and as a member of the legislature he signed a petition calling for a secession convention. Mills was a true Southerner when the guns sounded at Fort Sumter, and he hurried to the front. He then went to Missouri and enlisted in the Third Texas Cavalry as a private. He was in the Battle of Wilson's Creek but did not stay in the Cavalry long; he came back home and helped organize the Tenth Texas Infantry. In the election of officers, Allison Nelson was elected Colonel and Mills Lieutenant Colonel. Almost at once the new organization was sent north to Arkansas Post. Soon after their arrival Colonel Nelson died and Mills was made Colonel and was placed in command of the regiment. It was Mills' misfortune more than once to be under the command of inexperienced Generals. This was true at Arkansas Post when the Confederate General permitted his small force to be surrounded by a Federal Army ten times its strength. After a short resistance the Confederates were forced to surrender. Mills, with his regiment, were taken prisoners and sent to Camp Chase, Ohio. After months of confinement they were exchanged. On re-entrance into the Confederate forces they were put in the Army of Tennessee, where they remained during the rest of the War.

Mills was at the Battle of Chickamauga. A the beginning of the fight the brigadier general was killed and Mills, as senior colonel was put in command of the brigade. As for his conduct that day, let one of his men who was there and saw it all, tell it:

"It must have been about ten o'clock when that part of Cleburn's Division began to advance. The Federal line was posted on the crest of a low ridge. They had hurriedly protected themselves with low breastworks and defenses of logs and rails. Two hundred yards in front of this the Texas command advanced, bending low as though they were in a hailstorm. And so it was, but it was a hail whose stroke meant death. Their lines were enfiladed by double-shotted batteries whose brass guns leaped from the ground like things of life when they were fired. Even then they stood and fought with cool desperation. You have seen Mills in the House in debate when he was stirred, did you ever notice how the man seemed to grow taller when he went into action? The thing I am talking about happened twenty-eight years ago. He was a young man then. There he sat on his horse, to the right of his leading regiment, a little advanced, firm and unchanged as though he and his horse were cast of iron."

But history is history: the Federal line in that part of the field was held by General George H. Thomas, the "Rock of Chickamauga", and the men who made the charge, in the end, were thrown back.

Mills' next battle was at Missionary Ridge, which in a general way went against the Confederates. But Mills' command captured four Union flags. He was slightly wounded in this battle according to C.C. Jeffries, historian.

"The War moved on and the fortune of the Confederacy was falling. Early in 1864 Sherman began his penetration of the Sough, and the Confederate force did what it could to block the way. Battle followed battle, and after each contest the Men in Gray were always forced to fall back. The contending armies at length reached Atlanta, and here the campaign settled down to a siege of that city. Early in the siege Mills was wounded again, but again it was slight, and in a little time he was back at the head of his regiment. The siege continued, with every few weeks a bloody battle. Before a great while Mills was hit again. This time it was no slight hurt. So badly wounded was he that for a while his life was despaired of. He was in the hospital for four months, and after he was released, he for a still longer time was a semi-convalescent. That ended his military career. Before he was able to report for duty again the Confederacy was broken, and the Civil War was over. Sheathing his sword he returned to his home in Corsicana.

So much has been written about Reconstruction that the subject has become a little hackneyed. However one incident that bears strongly on Mills' political career might be mentioned. As nearly everyone knows E. J. Davis, the last Republican governor of Texas, was very desirous of re-election. [Until the election of Governor Clements (R) in 1978] The Democrats were moving heaven and earth to defeat him, and politics were running high. At Corsicana on one occasion there was a mixed political rally, white and Negro, Democrat and Republican, with a big barbecue dinner. Davis, as the principle speaker was there with a company of his Negro police. At the appointed hour he went upon the platform and made his address. Right vigorously he defended his administrative policies, and ended with a vigorous appeal to the voters to continue him in office.

When he had finished the crowd called for Mills. With alacrity Mills mounted the stand and opened in reply. Paying no attention to the Negro police he broke into one of those extemporaneous speeches so typical of him when roused. He lambasted Davis' administration up one side and down the other. Especially did he denounce Davis' use of the Negro police. The crowd was taken off its feet by his oratory, and when he sat down they cheered long and loud. The Negroes, who as a race always know a strong man when they see one, were not a whit behind the whites in the applause. So taken back was Davis by the demonstration that he did not stay to partake of the barbecue dinner, but got in his buggy and headed for Austin. Largely on the strength of this episode Mills was elected to Congress."

Mills served in the House of Representatives from December 1, 1873 to March 29, 1892.

No subject interested Mills more than the prohibition movement and in 1887 the question had been simmering for several years; a state wide election was called to settle the issue. Mills left Congress and came home to debate the issue. One of his most noted debates was with B. H. Carroll, a Baptist preacher. Among other scathing things he said was "Hell was so full of such political preachers as B. H. Carroll that their feet were sticking of of the windows".

The part that Mills took in this campaign was costly to him in a political way. Up till that time he had perhaps been the most popular man in Texas, but the hard things he said against his opponents in the debates turned many of his former admirers against him. Moreover, in a less personal way, they said he did wrong in quitting his post in Washington and coming to Texas and stumping the state for whiskey.

Roger Q. Mills is most noted for his work on the tariff, a schedule of rates or charges of a business or public utility, which had the attention of Congress for years. Finally in 1888 it came up for serious consideration. President Grover Cleveland was in favor of tariff reform; the Democrats had control of the Lower House of Congress. Mills, who was recognized as an authority on the tariff, was chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. The signs looked favorable to something constructive being done. After consulting leading Democrats, Mills drafted a bill. When it was ready it was introduced in the House. It roused tremendous interest all over the country. It was a party contest, the Democrats favoring the measure and the Republicans opposing it. Mills as the champion of the bill was in the forefront of the fight. He and William McKinley, then a young member from Ohio, at times crossed swords. The debate ran for over a month, and when the vote was taken the bill passed 162 to 149. It was then sent to the Senate but as the Congress was nearing adjournment and the Republicans were in control of the Senate, there it died.

The Mills Tariff Bill caused a great flurry but it never became law. It was said to have been the fairest piece of legislation of its kind that had been attempted since the Civil War and if it could have been enacted into law it would have been of untold benefit to the common people.

In 1891 John H. Regan resigned from the Senate to take a place on the newly created Railroad Commission. At once over the state there began to be talk that Mills ought to be appointed to fill out the vacancy. But Governor Hogg had other notions, and he appointed Horace Chilton instead. However, Chilton's appointment was never confirmed by the legislature, and as soon as that body met they elected Mills to take the place, and when this short term of Regan's was ended they elected Mills again for a full term.

Other interests of Mills during his Senate days include:

A. The Silver Issue was over the question of Silver having an equal place with gold in the monetary standard. He lost this debate. The people of Texas were for free silver.

B. He introduced a bill in the Senate recognizing Cuban Independence. He was very interested in the revolution. Nothing came of it.

C. He announced for re-election. However Governor Hogg had never liked Roger Q. and his eye on Charles Culberson for his place in the Senate and Joe Bailey, a rising Congressman formed a clique against Mills. These men had eminent influence among the Democratic leaders of Texas. The curtain came down on Roger Q. Mills during this election.

When oil was discovered in Corsicana Mills appears as an oil man. He owned a tract of land in the production area. The common practice of leasing land for an eighth royalty did not please him. He wanted to develop his property himself; however he did not have the capital to do this. The idea to form a partnership with banker James Garitty was necessary for his plan. Garitty furnished the money and Mills the land. They hired drilling rigs and put down the wells. At one time they had over a hundred producing wells. It was a shallow field and the output was comparatively light. Just how much money Mills made in oil is not known with exactness, but he certainly cleared $100,000 or more.

C. C. Jeffries said of Mills: "Mills was of strongly marked character. Perhaps courage was his outstanding trait, and this, whether facing the leaping cannons of Chickamauga or standing in the halls of Congress contending for something that he knew might mean his political ruin. He was plain of speech, plain of action; he was as open as the day, and as sound as an oak. His fame was not confined to his own state or to even his own party. Ex-Congressman Johnson says that when he first went to Washington he sometimes met men from the North who had known him in the old days and they, one and all, spoke of him in the highest esteem.

Such was Roger Q. Mills. In his day one of the foremost statesmen of the United States, and taken comprehensively, one of the greatest men of Navarro County of all time".

Roger Q. Mills died in 1911. He was preceded in death by his wife, who died in 1907. They are buried in Oakwood Cemetery. Major Charles Mills, son of Roger Q. and Caroline Jones Mills, lived in the Mills home which was preserved as his father planned it many years ago. The home is still standing today.

An interesting sidelight on the Mills family was taken from Jacob Eliot's Diary, 1866: "Roger Q. Mills and his wife were baptized in the farm tank of Jacob Eliot, July 8, Sunday, by a Methodist minister, Reverend Littlepage. Captain J. C. Halbert was also baptized at this time."

From the Texas Methodist Centennial Yearbook we find that Mills served as a lay delegate in 1870 to the General Conference (then the Old Northwest Texas Conference.) These items confirm that Roger Q. Mills was not only active in political and civic affairs, but gave the same attention and love to his religious life. He was truly one of the great pioneers of Texas and Navarro County.

Quotes:

The following passage is from an 1887 speech by Roger Q. Mills of Texas. It was quoted more than once during the December, 1914 debate in Congress:

"Prohibition was introduced as a fraud; it has been nursed as a fraud. It is wrapped in the livery of Heaven, but it comes to serve the devil. It comes to regulate by law our appetites and our daily lives. It comes to tear down liberty and build up fanaticism, hypocrisy, and intolerance. It comes to confiscate by legislative decree the property of many of our fellow citizens. It comes to send spies, detectives, and informers into our homes; to have us arrested and carried before courts and condemned to fines and imprisonments. It comes to dissipate the sunlight of happiness, peace, and prosperity in which we are now living and to fill our land with alienations, estrangements, and bitterness. It comes to bring us evil-- only evil-- and that continually. Let us rise in our might as one and overwhelm it with such indignation that we shall never hear of it again as long as grass grows and water runs."

A short biography from 1895 reads;
"It is high praise to say of any man that he is best liked where he is best known. No better evidence of a man's popularity and influence in his own community could be desired than the fact that he has been chosen to represent that community continuously for a quarter of a century in the legislative halls of the country. Such has been the lot of Roger Q. Mills, the junior senator of Texas. Senator Mills was born in Todd County, Kentucky, March 30, 1832. After receiving a common-school education he removed to Palestine, Tex., in 1849, where he studied law, supporting himself in the mean time by serving as an assistant in the post office and in the offices of the court clerks. In 1850 he was elected engrossing clerk of the Texas House of Representatives, and in 1852, by a special act of the Legislature - for he was still a minor - he was admitted to the bar. He practiced his profession at Corsicana, and in 1859 was elected to the Legislature. Subsequently he was colonel of the Tenth Texas regiment in the Confederate service. In 1873 he was elected to Congress from the state at large as a Democrat, and served continuously in that body until he resigned to accept the position of United States senator, to which he was elected March 23, 1892. In 1876 Mr. Mills opposed the creation of an electoral commission, and in 1887 canvassed Texas against the adoption of the prohibition amendment to its constitution, which was defeated. He introduced into the House of Representatives in 1888 the bill that was known by his name, reducing the duties on imports and extending the free list. Senator Mills is a man of much quiet force, whose opinions in legislative matters have great weight."

Researched by Wyvonne Putman,
Originally published in "The Navarro County Scroll", Vol. XXI 1988
Used with permission of the Navarro County Historical Society

[Mills Morrison]

Wow!

[Stan Hillis]

Excellent. I really enjoyed that narrative, Bruce.

[Bill Murphy]

Roger's 1887 speech on prohibition is an absolute gem of oratory, and very short and to the point. At the risk of being accused of stealing another man's thoughts or choice of words, "gun control" could be handily substituted for "prohibition". In conclusion, "What a man, what a gun."

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, you are so fortunate to have a Parker with such wonderful provenance. Congratulations!!





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[Mills Morrison]

I looked it up . . . Here it is:

“Prohibition was introduced as a fraud; it has been nursed as a fraud. It is wrapped in the livery of Heaven, but it comes to serve the devil. It comes to regulate by law our appetites and our daily lives. It comes to tear down liberty and build up fanaticism, hypocrisy, and intolerance. It comes to confiscate by legislative decree the property of many of our fellow citizens. It comes to send spies, detectives, and informers into our homes; to have us arrested and carried before courts and condemned to fines and imprisonments. It comes to dissipate the sunlight of happiness, peace, and prosperity in which we are now living and to fill our land with alienations, estrangements, and bitterness. It comes to bring us evil - only evil - and that continually. Let us rise in our might as one and overwhelm it with such indignation that we shall never hear of it again as long as grass grows and water runs.”
~ Roger Quarles Mills

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks, Mills. I neglected to mention that the 1887 speech was posted at the second to last paragraph in Bruce's thread. I am sorely tempted to plagiarize this wonderful speech with a gun control bent, but will restrain myself, at least for now.

[Bruce P Bruner]

I requested a photo of the progress on my Top Lever Hammer barrels and I wasn’t disappointed. My barrels are in the middle, perhaps the other one’s belong to a member here. The Chain Damascus and the Bernard barrels (last photo) are awesome and are probably not even done yet. Breck said the photos weren’t very good but I liked them.
Well worth the wait, I’ll be burning Black Powder soon enough. Though Black Powder is in short supply due to the Goex plant shutdown, I did place an order for 5lbs of Old Eynsford 1F with Powder Valley recently. The 1F was the only in stock available. Luckily my shotguns aren’t fussy with digestive problems.:rotf:

[Mills Morrison]

Breck has two of mine ready and I am picking them up tomorrow. Can't wait to see the results

[edgarspencer]

Since black powder was the cancer that killed so many damascus barrels, why would you use it? There are so many loads which yield lower pressures with acceptable ballistics.

[Mills Morrison]

Edgar gives good advice

[Dean Romig]

I requested a photo of the progress on my Top Lever Hammer barrels and I wasn’t disappointed. My barrels are in the middle, perhaps the other one’s belong to a member here. The Chain Damascus and the Bernard barrels (last photo) are awesome and are probably not even done yet. Breck said the photos weren’t very good but I liked them.
Well worth the wait, I’ll be burning Black Powder soon enough. Though Black Powder is in short supply due to the Goex plant shutdown, I did place an order for 5lbs of Old Eynsford 1F with Powder Valley recently. The 1F was the only in stock available. Luckily my shotguns aren’t fussy with digestive problems.:rotf:


I would say that those Bernard barrels are quite done.





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[Bruce P Bruner]

Since black powder was the cancer that killed so many damascus barrels, why would you use it? There are so many loads which yield lower pressures with acceptable ballistics.
Edgar, I don’t believe black powder caused the ruination and havoc of any vintage barrels. All of the destruction was simply a result of neglect due to the lack of cleaning after use. Some of my oldest doubles (mid 1880’s) have unblemished bores from black powder use. I suppose I am a true traditionalist, vintage doubles were made for black powder use. I enjoy the sound, the smell and the smoke.

[Dean Romig]

But I hate the cleanup!





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[edgarspencer]

Edgar, I don’t believe black powder caused the ruination and havoc of any vintage barrels. All of the destruction was simply a result of neglect due to the lack of cleaning after use. Some of my oldest doubles (mid 1880’s) have unblemished bores from black powder use. I suppose I am a true traditionalist, vintage doubles were made for black powder use. I enjoy the sound, the smell and the smoke.

That's a beautiful gun.

I don't dispute that using traditional powders is fun, and if the bang and smoke gives you some pleasure, by all means, have at it. Your first two sentences seem to be in opposition with one another. Shooting black powder, on a crisp fall day, and properly cleaned afterward is unlikely to ever be an issue. However, a damp day causes the residue to almost immediately turn to sulfuric acid and it doesn't take any time at all to start frosting an otherwise mint bore. The slower burning Fg will always leave more residue than FFg. I use Fg in my 4 and 8 bore cannons, and they aren't too easy to clean. The 4 bore is well over 100 pounds and my wife isn't keen on my putting it in her kitchen sink.

[Bruce P Bruner]

But I hate the cleanup!
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Nonsense, cleanup is quick. Soapy water on a patch wrapped around a brush easily cleans the bore, followed by a dry patch or two and a subsequent light coat of oil.
Admittedly my hands do get dirty. I’m inclined to do the soap & water, dry and oil immediately after shooting. When I get home I revert to Hoppes and oil. Then, I’m confident the bores are spotless and I can put the gun away. I love the smell of Hoppes.
Everyone has their own opinion on the use of the “Holy Black”. I just feel black powder gets an unjust reputation. It’s safe and I’m never concerned about “over pressure”. Probably impossible.
I greatly respect everyone’s opinions here, especially Edgar and Dean. We can all enjoy our conversations and still be friends at the end of the day.

[Bruce P Bruner]

“However, a damp day causes the residue to almost immediately turn to sulfuric acid and it doesn't take any time at all to start frosting an otherwise mint bore.”
Edgar, I’m in full agreement. There are situations where the black just isn’t appropriate and a suitable RST makes more sense.

[Garry L Gordon]

Bruce, you can honestly say you "smoked one" when you make a shot with that gun. I'd like to see that.

[Bruce P Bruner]

Bruce, you can honestly say you "smoked one" when you make a shot with that gun. I'd like to see that.
The shot column is visible just ahead of the smoke, much more dramatic in the late evening. You can just make out the orange clay pigeon too. The shotgun is an 1880's 12 gauge Clabrough sidelock hammer gun at the Pawnee Grasslands.
"Smoke 'em if 'ya got 'em".

[Garry L Gordon]

The shot column is visible just ahead of the smoke, much more dramatic in the late evening. You can just make out the orange clay pigeon too. The shotgun is an 1880's 12 gauge Clabrough sidelock hammer gun at the Pawnee Grasslands.
"Smoke 'em if 'ya got 'em".

That is cool!

[Dean Romig]

Nonsense, cleanup is quick. Soapy water on a patch wrapped around a brush easily cleans the bore, followed by a dry patch or two and a subsequent light coat of oil.
Admittedly my hands do get dirty. I’m inclined to do the soap & water, dry and oil immediately after shooting. When I get home I revert to Hoppes and oil. Then, I’m confident the bores are spotless and I can put the gun away. I love the smell of Hoppes.
Everyone has their own opinion on the use of the “Holy Black”. I just feel black powder gets an unjust reputation. It’s safe and I’m never concerned about “over pressure”. Probably impossible.
I greatly respect everyone’s opinions here, especially Edgar and Dean. We can all enjoy our conversations and still be friends at the end of the day.




Bruce - saying my very valid opinion is “nonsense” regarding cleanup isn’t the best way to support your last paragraph in your post.

I have used black powder enough to know that, for me, the cleanup is NOT somehing I ever want to do again.

But I am enjoying this conversation and like you said, we’re still friends.





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[Stan Hillis]

I'm a diehard purist when it comes to black powder. I don't own a breechloading hammergun that would be period correct for blackpowder at this time, but used an original 16 ga. Powell S X S with Goex black for doves and quail, and now a Manton. Even through all my years competing in m/l rifle roundball competition and hunting deer with them, I've never fired a charge of any "black powder substitute". It's either the real stuff for me, or nothing.

I have killed limits of doves with the S X S Powell on more than one occasion. Loads of fun. Never found the cleanup to be much of an issue.

[Jay Oliver]

I think the more you shoot black powder the better routine you develop for cleaning your guns. So it "seems" like less of a chore.

I do think everyone should experience shooting an early Parker with brass black powder shells like the gun would have shot when new. I do enjoy shooting black powder cartridge shotguns/rifles and muzzleloaders. Though I find I do this in phases. I'll be really into it for awhile and then not do it for a year or so.

When I do it, I really do enjoy shooting black powder. It takes time to figure out loads that pattern well, which is both challenging and satisfying. I am sure I mentioned to the group before(because I was telling everyone...) I shot the muzzleloader event and black powder cartridge event at the Southern this year and really enjoyed it. I learned a lot from the muzzleloader guys and gals that I hope to incorporate next year. My Grade 3 10 Gauge Lifter with 28" barrels choked Mod/Cyl got me a 21/25 at the black powder cartridge event, not bad for my first time and I have some ideas to improve for next year.

I think if you're really into it you "BS" yourself into thinking all the extra work is work it is not a big deal, which is what I do(and will happily continue to do).

Now what I would love to do...is get a group of us together who have drank the Kool Aid so to speak, and put together a Parker Hammer gun Black Powder hunting trip. I think that would be a lot of fun.

[Bruce P Bruner]

The “Old dead guys” hold a certain timeless reverence to me. I take pleasure with my vintage shotguns, reliving an earlier time when living was basic and simple.

[Bruce P Bruner]

The Roger Q. Mills 1888 Top Lever Hammer Gun barrels were returned from Breck Gorman today. When I looked at the “before” photos they looked really bad. Seriously bad. How he transformed these barrels is beyond my imagination. Breck’s skills are astonishing.

[Bruce Hering]

The Roger Q. Mills 1888 Top Lever Hammer Gun barrels were returned from Breck Gorman today. When I looked at the “before” photos they looked really bad. Seriously bad. How he transformed these barrels is beyond my imagination. Breck’s skills are astonishing.

Breck is truly an artist at his (other) trade. The A.J. Aubry chain pattern barrels he just finished for me are amazing.

[Mike Koneski]

Speaking of cleaning up a gun after shooting black powder, I have a funny story. At the Vintage Cup up at Dover Furnace, I shot the black powder event. It was 50 targets out on the course. That's how I like to shoot that event. It gives the gun time to cool down and you don't have to deal with too much smoke obscuring targets. After the day's shooting was completed, Susan and I went back to our hotel room. I figured I should somehow clean the barrels so I started running the hot water in the bath. I then ran water through the barrels and proceeded to set them into the hot water in the tub. Well, not thinking what the result would be seeing as I never cleaned black powder out of a gun in a bathtub, I looked on with a mixture of amusement and horror as the tub transformed into what looked like a drain oil storage tank!! :shock: No amount of scrubbing the tub would remove the film. Had to call housekeeping. When the maid showed up she darn near fell over!! "What happened here??" she shrieked. I proceeded to sheepishly tell her. She used a green 3M scrubby and glass cleaner and got the tub looking like new! Needless to say I gave her a big tip and never, ever again cleaned black powder from a gun in a bathtub!! Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. :rotf::rotf:

[Bruce P Bruner]

When shooting the Black Powder I bring a couple of water jugs along mixed with a bit of Murphy's Oil Soap. It doesn't take too many patches wrapped around a nylon brush to get the mud out, rinse and repeat. I use a separate cleaning rod for the final Hoppes and oil. Admittedly a messy endeavor but it's just part of the experience.
When cleaning between shots with BPCR, a 7 to 1 mixture of NAPA cutting oil and water has proven to give excellent results, it's water soluble.
As mike's story reveals, cleanup is an outdoor job.

[Garry L Gordon]

Speaking of cleaning up a gun after shooting black powder, I have a funny story. At the Vintage Cup up at Dover Furnace, I shot the black powder event. It was 50 targets out on the course. That's how I like to shoot that event. It gives the gun time to cool down and you don't have to deal with too much smoke obscuring targets. After the day's shooting was completed, Susan and I went back to our hotel room. I figured I should somehow clean the barrels so I started running the hot water in the bath. I then ran water through the barrels and proceeded to set them into the hot water in the tub. Well, not thinking what the result would be seeing as I never cleaned black powder out of a gun in a bathtub, I looked on with a mixture of amusement and horror as the tub transformed into what looked like a drain oil storage tank!! :shock: No amount of scrubbing the tub would remove the film. Had to call housekeeping. When the maid showed up she darn near fell over!! "What happened here??" she shrieked. I proceeded to sheepishly tell her. She used a green 3M scrubby and glass cleaner and got the tub looking like new! Needless to say I gave her a big tip and never, ever again cleaned black powder from a gun in a bathtub!! Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. :rotf::rotf:

:shock::nono::rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf: Ran out of applicable emojis!

[Bruce Hering]

After many years of shooting BP I can say its easy to clean if you are ready for it. I carried two 1-gallon buckets. I would heat water and put dawn dishwashing soap in one and clean water in the other. Once the "gunk" had been removed from the barrel(s) in the first I would patch out the barrel and move to the second. This one had some alcohol added to the water. After several passes with the "swab" and then some patches to prove it clean I would set the barrel aside and let it cool and evaporate dry. Then a quick brush with some light oil and a touch on the extractors. Easy, peasey

[Dean Romig]

Personally, and only personally, it’s just not worth that kind of effort (for me) just to see a cloud of smoke and hear/feel the concussion of the explosion. I get it, I really do, but I won’t shoot BP again.

Smokeless and nitro powders were an improvement just as non-corrosive primers were an improvement. Plastic shot cups were an improvement… These were all developed to protect the longevity of our fine old guns… and to make it more convenient to enjoy our shooting enjoyment.




.

[Bruce P Bruner]

Dean brings up very valid points regarding the advancement of smokeless power and the evolution of shot shells overall. One thing that has not been discussed, recoil from black powder is greatly diminished compared to smokeless powder. The reduction in felt recoil is beneficial not only for one’s shoulder but additionally preserving 100+ year old furniture.
I certainly don’t use black powder exclusively, however it’s an enjoyable experience when I do.

[Rick Losey]

Edgar, I don’t believe black powder caused the ruination and havoc of any vintage barrels. All of the destruction was simply a result of neglect due to the lack of cleaning after use. Some of my oldest doubles (mid 1880’s) have unblemished bores from black powder use. I suppose I am a true traditionalist, vintage doubles were made for black powder use. I enjoy the sound, the smell and the smoke.


pitting and barrel damage out lived black powder by decades - you see it in fluid steel from the smokeless age as well

IMHO - it was the residue from corrosive primers that - yes, along with the lack of cleaning it out that ate the steel.

the older the barrels the longer they were exposed to it

they actually called them corrosive because they knew