3 day inspection/transfer

[MARK KIRCHER]

I had a conversation yesterday with another Gun enthusiast who is a good friend. – We found we had different interpretations of the “3 day inspection” – we agreed is a subjective term and perhaps there is not an exact/correct definition, but our interpretations of when the deal consummates were a ways apart. I am curious how others on this board interpret the “3 day inspection” gun exchange. Below are the points I believe are correct for a typical gun deal between parties who are not friends or even acquaintances. – needless to say deals between friends are different story.

- Buyer forwards funds to seller.
- Upon receipt/clearance seller ships gun to FFL holder/dealer (FFL for short).
- Upon receipt of gun at FFL, buyer has 3 days to get to FFL and inspect gun.
- Gun may be rejected for any reason within the 3 days - buyer does not need explain why rejecting.
- If 3 days pass without any inspection or contact from buyer or FFL indicating gun is on the way back or more time is being requested, seller considers gun sold and buyer is new owner.
- If accepted, buyer goes through transfer paperwork and pays FFL for service. My interpretation is - At this moment deal is complete and inspection period has ended. Similar to a handshake – “we have a deal - the end”.

My friend believes At this moment buyer can then take gun home and clean/shoot/whatever and still has the remaining time on the clock to change his mind and decide he does not want gun after all. He can then go back to FFL and demand deal be unwound. I disagree.
Thoughts .....

[Reggie Bishop]

Mark I like your points but most people I have dealt with will not agree with your last statement. Most want to take the gun home, think, pray, talk, then decide. Personally I don't think shooting should be allowed in the inspection period because of possible damage that could be done shooting improper loads.

[kurt varga]

To me when the 4473 is signed you own the gun, you make the choice to keep or send back at the ffl not after you walk out.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Here is GI's definition of 3 day inspection:
"Return Policy Guidelines of GunsInternational.com Unless the buyer and seller agree to modify, as may be the case in a new gun, layaway and for used guns it must be clearly marked in the listing as No Return, the return policy is three (3) calendar days from the day the item(s) are received by the buyer or delivered to the FFL acting for the buyer. The item may be returned for any reason, but the buyer must notify the seller within the three (3) calendar day inspection period. The buyer must start the return within the next four (4) calendar days to receive a complete refund, less all shipping, transaction fees and FFL charges. In other words shipping must start within one week of receipt of the item(s). The return shipping must be of equal shipping level, including insurance i.e.... Priority, Express, Blue Label etc. The return item MUST be in the same condition as when shipped to the buyer. This is an inspection period only, a gun is not to be fired or disassembled. Sellers written permission is required to allow the buyer to take down a takedown model during the inspection period. Upon the receipt and inspection of the returned gun, the seller agrees to issue a prompt refund. Recommendation: Confirm purchase with all details via the Contact Seller form within the listing and print out the listing for your records. Industry standard is that if a buyer fails to preform on a layaway that any monies deposited are forfeited. GunsInternational.com recommends all layaways are agreed in writing. Any modification of the 3 day return policy must be in writing by both buyer and seller."
Bob Jurewicz

[Mike Franzen]

I never really gave it much thought. I guess I just assumed you had 3 days to take it home and look it over but the FFL transfer puts a different perspective on it. Like Kurt said when the paperwork is signed you own the gun. If, afterwards you reject it then there’s going to have to be another FFL transfer. Fortunately I haven’t had a gun come to me that I needed to reject. However, that’s not true either. I have bought a couple guns at auction that I would never had accepted if the 3 day rule were in effect.

[Brian Dudley]

Another reason to clarify what an inspection period means between the buyer and seller up front if there is any question. Because every seller could also interpret it differently or allow more than others would. There have been many examples over the years of underhanded and mirky return policies from some sellers.

I personally would interpret it like Mark does. Once it is delivered to the FFL, the buyer has 3 days. But… this can get blurry because what about time of delivery, late in the day. Is that day ONE or the next. And what about open hours of the ffl? If they are closed for 2 days after receipt, then the buyer cannot even look at it until the 3rd day. A whole host of situations can muddy it up. And then if the gun is rejected, how quickly does the ffl have to send the gun back to the seller??? These are all points that a seller can be more flexible on or not flexible. The degree of which depends on their own past experiences and also their desire to be “rid” of the gun and to close the deal.


I have never personally had a gun that I sold returned to me, that I can remember at least, I try to make sure that my description and photos of the gun leaves no possibility of that happening. But, IF that were to happen, I would personally like to think that the 3 day inspection period could likely turn into 4 or 5 days just given logistics. And communication with the FFL would be part of it to ensure that no NICS check or transfer was actually done. And I would stipulate that I must receive the gun back in my hands within a reasonable time (I would say a week), from the time that I am told that the gun is being rejected. This would of course have to allow for the FFL to pack it back up
and get it shipped as well as transit time.

And yes, a NICS check being done, to most people, would mean that you are taking ownership and accepting the gun.

[Russell E. Cleary]

Mark:

Common sense in any transaction should mean that the phrase ‘If accepted”, as used in your sixth listed point, is dispositive. Done deal. Irreversible, provided no force or fraud, except by way of separate buy/sell contract negotiation, should the seller be so inclined to want to entertain it.

[CraigThompson]

I sell on GB a lot and usually give a 3 day NO FIRE return policy . That means you have three days from the time your dealer receives it to go look at it . That means look it over at your dealers . If you do the paperwork and take it home , or shoot it at the dealers before doing the paperwork you bought it no return . I realize this sounds a bit extreme but you have no idea some of the scheming SOB’s that prowl GB .

[Bob Jurewicz]

I believe I have to disagree with many here that the 3 day inspection terminates upon 4473 approval and transfer. How many here go to pick up their new treasure equipped with: chamber guage, bore micrometer and wall thickness guage? I don't! I do a visual inspection. If all appears fine I complete the transfer process. When I get home with the gun I perform all of the usual evaluations requiring special efquipment. If I find a major fault I fully expect the seller to honor return privilage if I am within the 3 day period and due so notify.
Bob Jurewicz

[Wayne Owens]

I completely agree with Bob!

[Larry Stauch]

I agree with Bob J. the 4473 is a form required by the government and has nothing to do with the inspection and approval of the purchase of a gun. If I am buying a gun I, like Bob, want to really understand what I am getting; including shooting it. I wouldn't buy a car without driving it. Would you? You can't tell if all the functionality works without shooting it. Maybe it patterns two or three feet to the left, that has happened. However, if I think that's necessary I talk with the seller about what ammo I want to shoot in it, they have always agreed. I also don't agree with the "return for any reason, no reason". The potential buyer has taken that gun out of the market for about 10-15 days during one of these transactions. That gun potentially could have sold to another person looking for the same thing, but that other buyer satisfied their need by buying something else. Sometimes those are the only buyers looking for that gun at that time. It could go months before another person may be interested in that particular gun. Only if the gun has been misrepresented in some way would I consider taking it back, not because the buyer wasn't serious or they were fickle.

[Phil Yearout]

Guess I've been lucky because I've never had to return or refuse a gun. But now that I think about it, I didn't think about my accepting the gun at the FFL as being the final acceptance. As was mentioned earlier, that's just "paperwork" to me; I assumed I'd be able to take it home, look it over carefully, and still reject it if I didn't feel it was what I thought it would be. You've given me something to think about if I ever buy another. I will say this: Every gun I've purchased has been from someone I was somewhat familiar with through the boards, etc. In a couple instances there has been an issue with the gun and there was discussion about me returning the gun. In those instances the sellers were amenable to that and most accommodating but we've been able to work out the issue with a price adjustment, agreement to repair, etc. I've never bought a gun through one of the listing sites and now I wonder if those sellers would be as accommodating, reasonable, etc.?

[Steve Huffman]

Why call it a 3 day inspection if some say its over after you sign the FFL ? I say three days starts after its signed and you have time to check it over at your pace not in some gun store with a bunch of people looking over your shoulder , Im with Bob J

[Brian Dudley]

If a seller wants to not consider the 4473 and take the gun back after ownership has been legally transferred then so be it. There is nothing to stop them from doing that. Again, Details of what is allowed and not allowed should be agreed upon so there are no questions if you are concerned about it.

Just consider in the case where a seller is an individual (not an FFL). If the gun is transferred to the buyer on a 4473 and then goes back, the receiving FFL now cannot return that gun back to the seller. It must go through an FFL on the sellers end and then get transferred back to the seller on another 4473. Which will likely end up costing the seller money which will then likely just end up being deducted from the buyers refund along with cost of ahipping both ways (which is also customary).
Whereas if the gun was not transferred to the buyer, it could just be sent directly back by the FFL because ownership was not transferred. The FFL is the legal middle man to facilitate the transfer of ownership.

[CraigThompson]

Why call it a 3 day inspection if some say its over after you sign the FFL ? I say three days starts after its signed and you have time to check it over at your pace not in some gun store with a bunch of people looking over your shoulder , Im with Bob J

The three days starts from the day the dealer gets the package . If you can’t look at the said item and ascertain within three days while at your dealers establishment as far as I’m concerned you’re oughtta luck . When you allow a lot of folks to take home etc the next thing you know some of the jerks have taken the gun apart not put it back together correctly and then claim it didn’t work when recieved . Or possibly they take it to their club for a practice round with their chronies and next thing you know they’ve beaten it up and decide they don’t want the dings knicks and scratches they caused while they were “looking at it” . And on the really extreme example you have folks that will buy with no intention of keeping take the gun home take out a part or two they might or might not need and replace with something that’s exceedingly worn broken etc . Waiting until you sign for it and then doing the three days is BS , suppose sad buyer waits a week before he picks the gun up ? No , he’ll no !

[edgarspencer]

This is exactly why I have a C&R license. I rarely buy anything that has to go through an 01 FFL. The rare occasion when I do, I know for certain what I’m buying. A good seller is one who will answer as many questions necessary.

[CraigThompson]

What I’ve said I stand by . You as a seller do not know what type people you are dealing with thru internet sales . It’s better to air on the side of caution . If I’m selling to someone that I know and “trust” I’d allow them to shoot the gun , but not some yahoo I have no history with . As a seller I’ll not take that much risk with the usual internet crowd . How many times has Morphy or Poulin or Rock Island allowed a person to take a gun apart before they won the auction or after they recieved the gun and then allow a return .How many times have the same auction houses allowed possible bidders to take a gun out and shoot it to see if they liked it before they bid or after they recieved and then the buyer wants to return it . Everybody’s got their own agenda but as far as I’m concerned 3 days starting the day your FFL recieved the gun , if you do the paperwork and take it home or shoot it at the dealers we’re done . Sounds like a good many of you want the seller to take all the risk .

[Victor Wasylyna]

I think it is ridiculous that we need permission from the federal government to buy/sell things. Therefore, I also think it is ridiculous to treat the act of obtaining such federal government permission (the NICS check) as tolling the three day inspection period.

I say do the FFL transfer, take it home, inspect it, and return it within three days of picking it up. Otherwise, it’s yours.

-Victor

[Bruce Hering]

In IL we have a three day wait period or "jail time" as some may call it. This only takes place after the 4473 is filled out and NICS is called. I have no way of checking a gun out of the FFL until this "wait time" is up. That being the case I have told sellers I dont want the three day inspection to start until I can take the gun home.

This can create a problem. Illinois has, as many of you know, a 3 day wait on hand off of a gun from FFL to purchaser.

[Phillip Carr]

When I sell a gun to a member here it is different then when I sell a gun else where. I generally allow the gun to be shot and give 3 days from time they pick up. I send tracking updates so there really is not a reason for the buyer not to know what day the gun will arrive and they get a notice that the gun delivered.
If the 4473 has been done and they change their mind I would expect that since the gun has been transferred. The buyer would be responsible for the shipping both ways and the cost of the FFL holder to transfer the gun to them, transfer the gun back to me, and be responsible for the cost of the FFL on my end. This is subject to change if the buyer discovers something that was missed of importance when I sold him the gun.

[Aaron Beck]

I found out the hard way that the common interpretation is mostly the former. Sign and you own it. Now my assumption as a layman was I had three days to inspect the gun without shooting it and the ffl was a govt tax/formality which was more part of the shipping process prior to the inspection period. I was wrong and ended up with no recourse but to keep said gun. Lesson learned.
In an ideal world you would be buying a classy gun from a classy gentleman and as a gentleman of class oneself you would honestly appraise the gun in your own premises, while honoring the wishes of the seller (dont shoot, dont disassemble). If the details dont add up, then you would pack and return the gun properly and pay the freight, insurance, ffl charges etc apologize for the trouble and get some of your money back. As detailed in the FAQ section of this website, there is no way to fully evaluate a used gun in the time you might have at the store and definitely not unless you are pretty experienced and have possibly made a few mistakes in the past. You might get this kind of service from a local gun store where you were known or from a friend but friendships have foundered on less. Ive come to see the ffl form as the logical point of transfer but likely wont be buying sight unseen again.

[Frank Srebro]

Many opinions here are heavily slanted in the buyer's favor. And specially so to the casual buyer who wants to be into vintage guns but won't invest in a bore mike, chamber and choke gauges, etc to take to the FFL's shop for an inspection during the 3 day period period that starts when received by the licensee. So you're on a business trip and can't make it then? Do your homework and ask the seller to ship so it arrives when you're back in town. This isn't satellite orbit level planning.

You want 3 days after filling out a 4473 to show the gun to your buds at the club for their learned opinions? Be sure to get the seller's agreement on that before you bid or buy.

Not much has been said here as regards hassle to the seller when he spends time to pack, drives to the shipping drop-off place, sweats out damage or loss while in shipment and having to deal with an insurance claim while the buyer gets his almost immediate refund from the seller; then if the buyer returns the gun for some casual or bs reason it puts a stigma on that gun and makes it harder to sell when re-advertised because the pool of us who are interested in this vintage stuff is limited and most will remember seeing the gun while previously advertised and "sold" ..... must be something wrong with it.

All of this is why I much prefer to legally sell vintage guns while at SxS events where the buyer can inspect to his/her heart's content and even shoot a few shots to test functioning. Legal transfer to your 03 or 01 FFL or using Form 4473, and you own it.

[Steve Huffman]

What I’ve said I stand by . You as a seller do not know what type people you are dealing with thru internet sales . It’s better to air on the side of caution . If I’m selling to someone that I know and “trust” I’d allow them to shoot the gun , but not some yahoo I have no history with . As a seller I’ll not take that much risk with the usual internet crowd . How many times has Morphy or Poulin or Rock Island allowed a person to take a gun apart before they won the auction or after they recieved the gun and then allow a return .How many times have the same auction houses allowed possible bidders to take a gun out and shoot it to see if they liked it before they bid or after they recieved and then the buyer wants to return it . Everybody’s got their own agenda but as far as I’m concerned 3 days starting the day your FFL recieved the gun , if you do the paperwork and take it home or shoot it at the dealers we’re done . Sounds like a good many of you want the seller to take all the risk .
Well I have slept on this I think now what I will do is when the gun gets to my FFL go the day he gets it and dont sign a FFL and dont shoot it or take it apart unless its a SXS because it had better been shipped taken down and dont take home and study the gun as mush as I can and come back the next two days and do the same and make up my mind on the Third day . I would be within your terms . Just wondering if you test drive a car before you buy it, Some of you guys here spend more on a gun then I have on a car LOL. I guess a mans word doesnt mean sh..! anymore BUT MINE DOES ! I have bought several guns from members here with no issues and had shooting rights and whatever I needed . My ffl dealer has a (5) FIVE return on used guns and you can shoot them too !

[Frank Srebro]

Well I have slept on this I think now what I will do is when the gun gets to my FFL go the day he gets it and dont sign a FFL and dont shoot it or take it apart unless its a SXS because it had better been shipped taken down and dont take home and study the gun as mush as I can and come back the next two days and do the same and make up my mind on the Third day . I would be within your terms . Just wondering if you test drive a car before you buy it, Some of you guys here spend more on a gun then I have on a car LOL. I guess a mans word doesnt mean sh..! anymore BUT MINE DOES ! I have bought several guns from members here with no issues and had shooting rights and whatever I needed . My ffl dealer has a (5) FIVE return on used guns and you can shoot them too !

That's signing a 4473, not a FFL. Also, the licensee must log the gun into his bound book on the day received. It's not like the gun sits there in limbo until the buyer shows up to accept or reject it. And if rejected the return shipping can get complicated. Often it's not as simple as just repacking, log out and send out the door.

Some acutely reserved buyers will also want to bring their atomic microscope to the FFL’s shop to check out the wood and metal, along with a DNA test kit to detect traces and confirm the gun actually went to DuBray, etc. as shown in the letter. Be sure to tell the DNA testing company you need results within the 3 day period if that was part of the deal. :rotf:

[Allen Peterson]

I am not a dealer I have a C&R FFL> In The In the past 20 or so years I have bought and sold around 50 shotguns. I carefully describe the gun and welcome anyone to come and shoot the gun. I prefer selling face to face unless I know you.
I will not ship a gun for a 3 say inspection. To many chances of the gun being damaged even though I do an extremely good job of packing. I have never cheated anyone and never will. But if you want one of my guns. Please come and handle it shoot it measure it but once the money changes hands its your gun. If you need 3 days to make up your mind. You don't need the gun.

[Stephen Hodges]

I agree with Brian on this. If a gun is legally transferred to the buyer then it has to be legally transferred back to the seller. In my case, my local FFL charges $100 to do a transaction. A bit steep, maybe, but he has the license and maintains the records. I do not blame him for that.

[Dean Romig]

WOW $100.... That's a bit much. The guy I use, Glenn's Ammo & Reloading, owns a gun and reloading shop and his price is $35 but he charges me $25.






.

[Stephen Hodges]

Dean it is what it is. You either agree to pay it or not. I do not harbor any negative feelings toward him. He has a family to feed too.

[Dean Romig]

As does Glenn...




.

[John Allen]

It is a matter of communication between both parties. The seller needs to describe the gun to the best of his ability and detail his understanding of what the 3 day inspection means. The buyer needs detail what he will be inspecting and how much time he needs. Most sellers will agree to an extra day or two if needed if you just ask up front. I am seeing more and more ads that say "as is no return". I think that is because some buyers have abused the inspection period. Both parties must explain what they expect out of the deal before any money changes hands.

[CraigThompson]

Go in a gun shop and buy a brand new gun with the stipulation you can take it home and within three days if you don’t like something about it you can return for full refund . Then think about a three day policy where you cannot fire it but you can return for full refund except the shipping when it’s an online transaction for a previously owned gun . Some of you wanna buy with zero risk for you , why not just ask the seller to give you the gun to get it off his hands :whistle:

[Larry Stauch]

Okay guys try this one on. I bought 2 different guns last week and then went out of state to another state's shoot. When I returned yesterday I found out that there was an attempted unsuccessful delivery on one gun. After repeated attempts to get a hold of the FFL, who has overtime become a friend, I get a text from him that he is in the hospital with respiratory complication due to the dreaded Covid. Additionally, the wife has it too and can't even get out of bed to sign for either of these guns. He has no idea when he's getting out of the hospital and the sellers don't just want to leave this open ended. I can't say that I blame them. The first gun is not too expensive, but todays gun is quite pricey and there's an remote chance, because it's so rare, it could be a forgery, so I need to inspect it. Talk about complicated. Of course both of these guns are already paid for.

[Dean Romig]

A "forgery" misrepresented as an original should override any inspection period I would think.





.

[Phillip Carr]

I would find another local FFL and have the gun rerouted to them. The seller would need to do the rerouting from his end. If the gun is still at the local hub this could happen very quickly I would think.

[Frank Srebro]

I would find another local FFL and have the gun rerouted to them. The seller would need to do the rerouting from his end. If the gun is still at the local hub this could happen very quickly I would think.

Methinks that’s easier said than done. The seller’s FFL already made the “disposition entry” in his Bound Book and there’s way to eradicate that and reenter a new receiving FFL. And since the gun was never physically returned to him he can’t date and enter it as a new “acquisition” and then enter a new “disposition”.

[Andrew Sacco]

I bought a gun on line once that the dealer gave a "A 3 day non firing inspection and $100 re-stocking fee." I thought it was worth the risk so did it. If returned you paid shipping and he returned all but $100.

[Phillip Carr]

Oh well so much for that idea. I have rerouted packages in the past, but never a gun.

[CraigThompson]

Methinks that’s easier said than done. The seller’s FFL already made the “disposition entry” in his Bound Book and there’s way to eradicate that and reenter a new receiving FFL. And since the gun was never physically returned to him he can’t date and enter it as a new “acquisition” and then a new “disposition”.

Frank , if said gun is coming from a private seller what Phil suggests will work . However the way we do it the said three day inspection doesn't start until the gun is signed for at the FFL who takes possesion . So theoretically its until guns delivered , now if I were the seller I'd be pissed about this not so much at the buyer but at the whole deal in general and of course if I'm the one that paid for the gun I'd be pissed as well . But in the present screwed up state of affairs in the world things like this aren't uncommon :whistle:

[CraigThompson]

Okay guys try this one on. I bought 2 different guns last week and then went out of state to another state's shoot. When I returned yesterday I found out that there was an attempted unsuccessful delivery on one gun. After repeated attempts to get a hold of the FFL, who has overtime become a friend, I get a text from him that he is in the hospital with respiratory complication due to the dreaded Covid. Additionally, the wife has it too and can't even get out of bed to sign for either of these guns. He has no idea when he's getting out of the hospital and the sellers don't just want to leave this open ended. I can't say that I blame them. The first gun is not too expensive, but todays gun is quite pricey and there's an remote chance, because it's so rare, it could be a forgery, so I need to inspect it. Talk about complicated. Of course both of these guns are already paid for.

Based on the covid part I'd ask the seller/s to have the guns sent to another FFL and with the issue involved I'd expect them to be a might reasonable about any additional freight cost incurred .:whistle:

[Frank Srebro]

Frank , if said gun is coming from a private seller what Phil suggests will work . However the way we do it the said three day inspection doesn't start until the gun is signed for at the FFL who takes possesion . So theoretically its until guns delivered , now if I were the seller I'd be pissed about this not so much at the buyer but at the whole deal in general and of course if I'm the one that paid for the gun I'd be pissed as well . But in the present screwed up state of affairs in the world things like this aren't uncommon :whistle:

Larry might want to call the BATFE to discuss this situation and the legalities of redirecting the shipment if the seller is a private gent and he shipped it himself, not through an 01 FFL.

[Brian Dudley]

Re-routing the shipment would likely be a perfectly logical and legal option IF the shipping FFL is the one who re-routes the shipment. They would be able to verify that the shipment was not delivered, verify the location to be re-routed to, and make it happen. The buyer would have no legal right or ability to do it.