Baker Gun Help!

[Mike Koneski]

Trying to pin down a mfg date on a Baker gun. Anyone have the elusive serial number/mfg date list of Bakers? I looked online, in the LCS and Ithaca books and can't find anything.

[Daryl Corona]

"Earth to Researcher, come in Researcher, do you read?":)

[Bob Decker]

If you can't find it here its not known about Bakers. www.bakercollectors.com
This revamped site is the result of hard work by Daryl Hallquist, Shane Lee, and particularly Drew Hause.

[Mike Koneski]

Thank you Bob!!

[Drew Hause]

Daryl's revised grade DOM and SN chart is here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zR9cn008zfbEsyaynA_u8sf9wHI6ItVi0msn2alC9ek/edit

[Mike Koneski]

That's great Drew, thank you! The document links would not open for me but what you sent here in your reply did open.

[Drew Hause]

Glad to be of help Mike, and I responded to your email.
The format here usually does not retain embedded links.
This is the new Baker Collectors Home Page, to which the old collectors site is redirected; with a Table of Contents
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PqK3UImDCrsOrk6O_2DsovHXvaNSzliSiwaP35Y6PMk/edit

[Dave Noreen]

Dr. Drew is on the job!! I'm late!!

[Mike Koneski]

Dave, for once someone beat you to the draw!! Are you slowing down or is Drew that fast?

[jefferyconnor]

Daryl's revised grade DOM and SN chart is here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zR9cn008zfbEsyaynA_u8sf9wHI6ItVi0msn2alC9ek/edit

This is a terrific resource, this picture is from page 30. It’s a Paragon or A grade. Baker engraving appeals to me the most of any of the vintage makers: the engraving shows a scene with vitality and motion.

[Drew Hause]

Daryl's Paragon with Chain damascus is about 4/5 way down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uGeSuMJBPMNGh0ydCQXeAnpGRLANfl0Uhe954818veQ/edit

[Craig Budgeon]

Model 1909 Paragon

[Drew Hause]

Correct. No firing pin retaining screw; the pin is held in place by the lockplate, and a different top rib extension lock-up

https://photos.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Baker/i-JH7KVjv/0/ca0bb52f/L/Baker%20New%20Paragon%201909-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Baker/i-JH7KVjv/A)

[Craig Budgeon]

Model 1909's were made in Paragon, Expert, and Deluxe grades. Expert replaced the L and the standard Deluxe dropped. The 1909's had different shaped lock plates, a different bolt, different engraving on the Paragon, and the serial number is followed by N.N. on the examples I have seen.

[jefferyconnor]

I see now that there isn't the firing pin screw. A 1909 with the cross bolt is what I was originally looking for, I had to settle for a Special Paragon. That 1909 is a nice gun! The engraving scene is the among the most appealing of any I have seen on a vintage gun.

[Daryl Hallquist]

jeffery c, The picture you posted is actually a 1909 Model Paragon.

[Craig Budgeon]

efferey, I think i would prefer your spec. Paragon over a late 1909 Paragon. Late guns had black oxide frames, like black beauties, and the quality of the engraving had declined significantly.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Been through the informative post from Drew. Can’t zero in on Year of Maufacture for this Paragon. Check my albums for more pics. Cheers Jack

[Craig Budgeon]

That gun was manufactured by H.D. Folsom after Baker was purchased by them in 1919. The F suffix following the serial number is the identifying evidence.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Thanks Craig. I finally found that info. Then I read no production info available for Folsom. Looks like the best I can say is it was made between 1920 and 1929. Folsom put out a lot of guns over that period of time given my SN over 200000. I have hunted with this gun but I don’t shoot it well. Will give it another go this fall but if I miss too many more roosters then it’s back to Parkers that I do shoot well. Cheers Jack

[jefferyconnor]

Thanks Craig. I finally found that info. Then I read no production info available for Folsom. Looks like the best I can say is it was made between 1920 and 1929. Folsom put out a lot of guns over that period of time given my SN over 200000. I have hunted with this gun but I don’t shoot it well. Will give it another go this fall but if I miss too many more roosters then it’s back to Parkers that I do shoot well. Cheers Jack

Can you post some pictures of the frame? I'm interested in seeing the engraving. Does yours have the Greener crossbolt?

[Jack Cronkhite]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=1002 More pics here. It does have the Greener cross bolt

[Dave Noreen]

Baker had a lot of different serial number blocks. When the R- and S-grades were introduced they began a serial number block starting at 200000. When the Paragon and above with the round cross-bolt were introduced, they continued in that 200xxx range. From my observations 201036 was still a Baker Gun & Forging Company gun and your gun 201055 F is a H & D Folsom gun. My previous lowest Folsom Paragon recorded was 201085 F. H & D Folsom Batavia Leaders and Black Beauty Specials were in a much lower serial number range. The ones I've recorded are from 4020 F to 16714 F a Batavia Leader which is marked Baker Gun Co., Norwich, Conn.

[Jack Cronkhite]

So very interesting. There is now a 19 gun range within which the last Baker Gun and Forging R S or Paragon and the first H&D Folsom R S or Paragon occur. Do I have that right?

[Craig Budgeon]

I don't believe the serial numbers ranges of Folsom guns relate to Batavia Bakers at all. I owned two Folsom Leaders one in 20ga. and one in 16ga. both serial nos. were below 201000 and I believe the 20ga. was below 200400. My opinion is that Folsom started there serial nos. at 200,000 followed by the F suffix to avoid confusion with Batavia R and S's.

[Dave Noreen]

As I said above, the H & D Folsom Leaders and Black Beauty Specials appear to be in their own serial number range. Those I've recorded are from 4020 F to 17275 F.

95562

The Paragons and above appear to continue in the 20xxxx range from the Baker Gun & Forging Co. R- and S-Grades and later round cross-bolt style Paragons and above. The R- and S-grades were gone well before the sale to H & D Folsom.

Now, just to add to the confusion, I just looked in another file and found pictures of an H & D Folsom era Black Beauty Special with a serial number 201255 F --

95560

95561

[Daryl Hallquist]

Decades ago I cataloged every Baker I saw, but sort of got lazy the last couple of decades after a few thousand written down. Here's what I see on Folsom guns.

The lowest serial number Folsom Leader I have seen is 176 F and the highest is 17,956 F with a Norwich address.

For the Folsom Black Beauty Special, many are in the 201,000 F range and 201,957 F is the highest recorded. But, many Black Beauty Specials are in the 3000 F to 6000 F range seemingly shared with the Folsom Leader numbers. I agree with Dave that the 200,000 F range Folsom guns have nothing to do with the R and S 200,000 and above serial range.

As to the Paragon and De Luxe grade Folsom guns, all seem to be in the same block as the 201,000 F and up Black Beauty Specials. But, never say never as one Folsom Paragon has appeared in the 2200 F serial no. range.

[Craig Budgeon]

Looked up H.D. Folsom on the net this AM. While I was aware that they were involved with more than Bakers, I was not aware that they in fact were responsible for the distribution of more than 100 brands of shotguns but not the manufacture. Since they were involved with so many brand names I doubt what serial number a gun carried was of no importance to them. The F suffix was probably of more benefit to the manufacturer than to Folsom

[Drew Hause]

Craig: Folsom did market name, and tradename, English and Belgian guns.

1890

https://photos.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-7f68TcX/0/46dfb8bd/S/1891%20Folsom%20ad-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-7f68TcX/A)

And also the Folsom “Parker Trap Gun”

https://photos.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-QrzvFDr/0/8b80d3c7/M/Parker%20Trap%20Gun-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-QrzvFDr/A)

But Folsom purchased Crescent Fire Arms in 1893 and the vast majority of tradename guns thereafter were of Crescent manufacture.
It's all here, along with an estimated SN DOM
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXX Q

"We have been manufacturing Crescent guns for over 40 years..." c. 1925
Well not quite 40 years; The Crescent Fire Arms Co. was incorporated in Connecticut on March 4, 1892.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-vJmG3bD/0/a91d735c/L/Folsom%20catalog%20No.%2023%20No.%2060%20Empire-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-vJmG3bD/A)

[Dave Noreen]

The NEW PARAGON/EXPERT/DELUXE GRADE MODEL--NINETEEN-NINE featured a new "roller cocking mechanism" --

95599

95596

When they brought out the Paragon and Expert Grades with the round cross bolt they returned to the pin through the lug lifting the "cocking lever" cocking mechanism --

95597

95598