Waste of time, or....?

[John Cleveland]

I have a Parker lifter hammer that my father found in the attic of a house he bought, probably in the late 1940's or early 1950's. It was/is in terrible shape. In the late 50's, he had the firing pins cut off, the front section of the top rib, which had come loose, soldered back in place, put adhesive tape around the cracked stock near the block, and gave it to me to play with. For some reason, probably sentimental, I kept it around, though we thought that it probably was ready for the junk pile. As I matured and learned that it was a Parker and the value of them, I always felt sick that someone had so poorly treated the gun, but considering its condition, didn't spend any time thinking about it. Later, my sons played with it in learning about guns. Sometimes in the field or drinks after, I would lament its fate, but it was discussed like you would a dead relative--a sad loss, but over with.

Then, today, at a hunting preserve training my dog, sitting around afterwards, talk turned to the Parker that the trainer had, and the L.C. Smith another hunter had. As usual, I raised my lament. Surprisingly, the hunter stopped me and said that maybe I should check with Turnbull Restorations, that they can do amazing things. I thought that might be very unlikely, but I came home to look at their website. That got me thinking at least, maybe I can figure out the model and age of the gun, if nothing else for curiosity's sake. That led me to this site, and a lot of looking at resources here.

Turns out that SN 15313 was shown in your SN list as manufactured in 1879 (although there appears to be engraving on the forearm release that looks like "TD MAR 25, 1878" . It is apparently a model U with Damascus barrels and a straight English stock. Aside from the stock, it looks like the Grade 2 section link to pictures of lifter hammer guns, which shows a Grade U gun.

So, I am wondering about where a U model fits into the scheme of grades. I don't find it specifically listed on the grade description page, though it shows up in pictures linked from the Grade 2 section. Is there any thing distinguishing it from Grade 2, or other grades?

Finally, after dismissing the gun all these years, the idea of some kind of restoration is intriguing. I seriously doubt it could be restored to significant value, but an expert might be able to make it an attractive display for, say, over a mantle. Maybe after all it has been through, it deserves some love for being a survivor. Does anyone know anything about Turnbull Restoration?

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Jon, Some photos of the old girl would help us with identifying what you have, should be a grade 2 under lifter straight stock with 30" Damascus barrels, Gary

[Dean Romig]

Doug Turnbull runs a great operation restoring these old guns. His shop turns out some really nice work. There are others however, who can produce equally nice work.

The checkering, especially on the forend - if it is still evident there, can give a clue to the grade of the gun, that and the engraving on the lock plates and elsewhere on the frame.

You should post some pictures here on this thread.





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[John Cleveland]

Thanks! I will post some shortly. I almost hesitate, because it may be as painful for others as it is for me to see its condition.

[John Cleveland]

BTW, after looking at some pictures here and restored guns on Turnbull, I think that the "TD MAR 25, 1878" is a patent date marking. I will show it in the pictures.

What resolution should I use? They will be iPhone 12 pictures which are quite detailed, but quite large.

[Andrew Sacco]

Mid to low resolution is fine for the screen. I'm looking forward to photos. I've seen one or two Turnbull restorations up close and personal. Stunning. Sit down if you decide to get a quote : )

[John Cleveland]

Hope these are good enough:

[Dean Romig]

Wow - that one’s been rode hard!

Judging by the “knot” in the bow-tie checkering of the forend it is a grade-2 or G. That’s called the three-point checkering pattern. A grade-1 wouldn’t have the knot in the bow-tie.





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[John Cleveland]

Do you know how the U stamped on it figures into the grade?

[Dean Romig]

I had given my opinion on the significance of the U several months ago but I was pooh-pooh’d so I’l let others express their opinions.

This picture describes what I had posted then but I didn’t provide a picture then to support my opinion. And here it is for those who may have doubted.



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[Harold Lee Pickens]

Wow, rough. How are the bores--that is the key if you want to shoot it. Restoration will probably come to more than what you could buy a decent Parker shooter for, still, a straight grip underlever is cool. A money pit for sure, but many of us have our money pits also.

[John Cleveland]

Interesting. So the U reflects a feature, not a grade. On the site's grade description page, a 2 is listed as E, F, G, or H for hammer guns. How would I determine which of those it is?

[John Cleveland]

"Wow, rough. How are the bores--that is the key if you want to shoot it."

Good question. I don't think I am qualified to evaluate, other than to say it looks "dirty". Not sure what the dirt is. Am I risking any thing to use modern bore cleaners and brushes? Still, I couldn't say myself whether they have shooting integrity. Do I need a Parker expert? Not sure I would trust a modern gunsmith on Damascus barrels.

Money pit may be an understatement! I don't know what I don't know. FOR NOW, it has admiration for it as a survivor in its favor.

[John Cleveland]

But, I guess if I sent it in for evaluation for restoration, experts like Turnbull could say if it were shootable--if restored. Questions, Questions!

[Andrew Sacco]

Where are you located? If anyone knows someone close to you that is qualified they'll let you know.

[Dean Romig]

The letter grade on grade 2 Lifters is determined by grip style and the gauge of the gun.





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[John Cleveland]

I'm located near Gainesville, GA

[John Cleveland]

Dean, sorry, somehow I overlooked your citing it as a G because of the "Bow tie", when I asked how to decide its grade.

[charlie cleveland]

work on the gun your self if the barrels are shootable you can fix the old gun....you can watch ebay for a stock....clean the barrels out with a steel brush on a drill..wipe out with clean ragsans see how deep the pits are...if not to deep go ahead with looking for a stock...now shell not be new with you and friends working on it but ya ll can get her shooting again with not a lot of money in her...I fixed a parker in worse condition than your gun and have shot it probably a 100 times now with low pressure loads....and I m not a very good gunworker....lots of luck.... charlie

[Mike McKinney]

There are several folks all around Georgia and Western North Carolina that will be happy to help you be advised of a reasonable choice. I live in Maggie Valley, NC and will be glad to help you evaluate the Parker. You should also join our organization as you may have the beginnings of Parkeritis. It’s a wonderful disease.

[John Cleveland]

Charlie, thanks. I was wondering if I could run a bronze brush through it, and whether to use Hoppes or similar with it. Will try it. BTW, good last name :)

[John Cleveland]

Thanks, Mike. Maggie Valley is a beautiful area. When I was a kid, I went to Camp Hemlock around there. I learned to ski at Cataloochee.

Not sure if I will be free to travel up there any time soon, but if the opportunity develops, I will try to check with you. Not sure how to use the PM, but I guess I can learn.

If there is anyone in the Metro Atlanta area, I get down there fairly often.

[John Cleveland]

Charlie, I ran a bronze brush with solvent through one barrel with a drill 3-4 times. Still pretty dirty looking. May be too pitted. I am guessing that I need a top quality gunsmith with proper equipment to really make that call.

Thanks for the advice.

[Mike Koneski]

There are several folks all around Georgia and Western North Carolina that will be happy to help you be advised of a reasonable choice. I live in Maggie Valley, NC and will be glad to help you evaluate the Parker. You should also join our organization as you may have the beginnings of Parkeritis. It’s a wonderful disease.


Just be advised that "Perkeritis" is incurable.

[Bill Murphy]

Take your gun on a trip to the Southern Side by Side in April in Sanford, NC. PGCA has a booth manned by Parker experts and many other experts will be on site. The Southern is the best side by side shotgun event within a thousand miles of your home. U, as listed in the Serialization Book, is a "type" of gun, an underlifter. In grades, a U denotes a grade within the 0 or zero quality realm. The "U", describing an underlifter is not a stamp on a gun in my experience.

[John Cleveland]

Thanks! Unfortunately, my family has other plans for me that weekend. I will keep it in mind, if that changes.

That being the case, I saw recommendations on this forum for Bill Schwarz in Ellijay, GA. That is only an hour away from me, reasonable to drive for an evaluation. Does anyone know if he is still working or have many here had experience with him?

[Gerald McPherson]

John; Bill is a very good Parker smith. 706 296 7688

[Gerald McPherson]

John check your pm.

[Jim DiSpagno]

Bill has done work for me in the past and is a talented Smith and well versed in Parkers

[John Cleveland]

Thanks for the recommendations. I have talked to Bill, who was very courteous. I plan to take the gun to him for evaluation as soon as my work schedule allows (he does not work weekends, and does not do computers).

[John Cleveland]

BTW, the number above is a typo. The correct number for Bill: 706-276-7668.

[John Cleveland]

First, I want to thank all of you who responded to my initial post. AND, I especially want to thank those who referred me to Bill Schwarz as an excellent restoring gunsmith.

In my initial post, I questioned whether trying to restore the gun was a waste of time. I got some good guidance from this group.

Today, I picked up the gun from Bill. I had no idea what kind of restoration awaited me. It was beyond my best expectations! It could not have been the same gun!

It is beautiful, and he proofed it with RTS shells, so I can shoot it—-if RTS and their peers ever get back into production from supply chain problems.

There are some “before” photos earlier in this thread. I will post some “after” photos shortly.

Meanwhile, I cannot recommend Bill Schwarz any more highly. Thanks again to those who connected me to him.

[John Cleveland]

Unfortunately, the size limitation on files limits the resolution of details like Damascus pattern and engraving, but the pics get the idea across.

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[John Cleveland]

Just to give a one quick comparison “before” being brought back from the dead:

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[Stan Hillis]

John, what a transformation, and a testimony to the abilities of Bill. Thanks so much for sharing the results with us. This will likely cause a backlog at Bill's, after all the Parker guys see these results. :rotf:

[Mills Morrison]

Now that is very cool! I hope you join PGCA as you clearly have the interest. I know you feel a lot of pride in rescuing that old gun

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Beautiful restoration or shall I say resurrection.

[charlie cleveland]

looking real good now go shoot her.....charlie

[John Cleveland]

"looking real good now go shoot her.....charlie"

Charlie, I plan to WHEN I can get low pressure loads. RST, and everybody else seems to be out of stock--supply chain.... Not sure when I, or anyone else will get some.

I welcome any leads to sources.

[Richard Flanders]

Now, that is absolutely beyond incredible. Who would have guessed it would come out THAT gorgeous! I didn't think there was a chance in hell that you'd get anyone to restore it. Bravo for persevering and going the extra 50mi on that one!! This gun will most certainly reset the standard of whether someone will get what seems like a total wreck of a gun restored or not. You are my hero John!! Had I spent the money to restore that gun I wouldn't regret it for even one micro-second!

[Mike Franzen]

John let us know approximately where you live and maybe one of our members could “loan” you some shells. It makes me happy to read these kind of stories

[John Cleveland]

Thank you all!

Mills, I have joined today. I figure that I need to get the research letter on her.

Stan, I hope it does get Bill some business, although he is not sitting idle for business. He has several racks of guns awaiting or in process of work. He advised that it might take 2 years to get mine done because of his backlog. Fortunately it was less than that. I told him that I was going to post some pictures. He probably won’t see it because he doesn’t do computers, but he sure does the old fashioned gunsmithing skills well. He is a quality guy. It cost more, but he had the vision to put on wood that is quite above the original grade, and I think that it paid off. I had asked if I needed to get stock measurements, he felt that he could make it good without that. I wondered. But in practice dry fire with snap caps, the thing really seems to really snap to a cheek weld that puts me looking as flat down the rib as I could with careful placement. Even with a straight English stock.

Richard, your comments really made me feel good about taking the chance. Maybe the example will salvage some other old soldiers. They may not get top dollar in an auction since they are not “original”, but there is some value to having them back to their original glory, while some “originals”, while more collectible, have faded somewhat. There is merit in having been well preserved and cared for, and there is merit in resurrection.

Thank you all again. I don’t get to spend a lot of time on forums, but I am so glad that I found this forum.

[Mills Morrison]

Is it a 12 gauge or 10 gauge? Looks like a 10 gauge, in which case, shells are going to be tough to find. 12 gauge is much easier. You might be able to find some 10 to 12 chamber inserts and go that way

[John Cleveland]

Is it a 12 gauge or 10 gauge? Looks like a 10 gauge, in which case, shells are going to be tough to find. 12 gauge is much easier. You might be able to find some 10 to 12 chamber inserts and go that way

Mills, it is hard to have perspective in those pictures but it is a 12, and a light 12. It has 2 1/2” chambers and is on a 1 frame. I almost feel like it handles lighter more like my Ruger Red Label 20 than my Red Label 12. It will be interesting to see how the recoil feels with low pressure shells.

I am not familiar with the gauge inserts.

Edit: I am not sure what that scowl emoji is doing at the top of the post. I didn’t put it there intentionally.

[John Cleveland]

John let us know approximately where you live and maybe one of our members could “loan” you some shells. It makes me happy to read these kind of stories

Mike, I live about 50 miles northeast of Atlanta, and that is a very generous thought. However, I would not want to impose on someone in times of such supply chain issues. Not sure when I would be able to repay the “loan” in kind. Money is not much of a substitute.

[Mills Morrison]

Watch the RST website for 12 gauge.

[John Cleveland]

Watch the RST website for 12 gauge.

Mills, the low pressure world is new to me. I have looked at their website, as well as others such as Poiywad, and it seems like there is a systematic supply chain problem, like so much else these days, or is this the way it usually is? It almost sounds like they are shut down by supply issues. How often do they usually put new inventory up on the site in normal times? Even then, their limit of 5 boxes a month would not go far in season. I am going into the third season of training my yellow lab and will probably go to a preserve several times a month for live bird training. If I start shooting the Parker for that, and practice, that would be tight. (The trainer that I work with there shoots a Parker, and when I sent him pictures, he said he’d bet it would become my go to quail gun, as his was. Although, his is a 20th century vintage that can shoot modern shells. In fact, it was a conversation with him and a hunter with an L C Smith after a training session that turned me on to the possibility of restoring mine.) I thought about reloading, but it looks like nobody has components for these 2 1/2 inch low pressure shells either, at least for now. It is almost like the gun will be forced to be a wall hanger for some time. I will try to monitor their site, but the question is how often will they post new inventory in these times? And it sounds like it will be sold out almost overnight.

[Richard Flanders]

Someone needs to get a few boxes of shells to John. We need a followup report on this gun, to include pics of it in the field taking birds!!

[todd allen]

Wow, that's quite a restoration! I think I'd have to name that gun Lazareth.

[John Cleveland]

Thanks for all your comments and complements. It may be overkill, but FWIW I thought that these photos taken in the sun show richer images worth seeing:
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[Mills Morrison]

Looks great!!!

[Rob White]

If you think that John's resurrected Parker is nice, you should see his dog he hunts over. Pointing yellow lab named Buck. Fine dog hunting for a fine man with a fine gun. Now I have to get out of here because I cannot afford to be here.

[Dean Romig]

Rob - Welcome!

There are entry level Parkers readily available. That's how we all started on this journey.






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[John Cleveland]

Thank you Rob!

Rob guides and trains out of South Fork Hunting Preserve near Royston, Ga. He has been helping me train Buck for the past 2 seasons, and we will be connecting again the coming season. He has been great at bringing Buck along, in spite of me. When Buck instinctively went on point with the first set of quail they put out, Rob jumped on that as something to develop. He understands training for the joy of a hunting companion instead of an intense trial competitor. Makes for easy going, enjoying-the-pleasure-of-the-hunt outings, where part of the pleasure is the dog enjoying his natural instincts without big pressure. Yet, meanwhile, he helps the dog develop deeper skills as we go; and he keeps training me. Buck has fun too!

Rob:"Now I have to get out of here because I cannot afford to be here."

Now, don't let him out of here too easily. He hunts with, I think, what was his mother's Parker. He will have to tell you what model and year. But he knows his guns. I guess he sees some of everything shot by his clients. It was sitting around with him and a fellow, who had an L C Smith, after a training hunt, talking about their guns, when I lamented the poor fate my gun suffered before my dad found it rusting away in an attic of a house he bought, that they got me turned on to the possibility of restoring my gun. So Rob gets some credit for my gun getting restored. The other guy mentioned Turnbull, but Rob said there were other quality gunsmiths closer to Georgia that I could show it to for advice on possibilities. That led me here, which led me to Bill Schwarz.

Rob deserves to be here!

[Rob White]

Dean, thank you for the warm welcome. I just posted a whopper story called "A Tragic Story With a Happy Ending" in the new people section.

[Rob White]

John, Thank you also for the recognition. You can't imagine how much I'm looking forward to cooler temps when we can run dogs and miss birds!

[John Cleveland]

You can't imagine how much I'm looking forward to cooler temps when we can run dogs and miss birds!

Dittos. Got to work on rustling up some low pressure 2 1/2's so I can get some pictures of "Lazareth" (courtesy of Todd Allen) shooting (or ME missing) birds for Richard Flanders.

[Mills Morrison]

Dove season is around the corner. Just sayin'

[William Woods]

I appreciate the fact that you were willing to resurrect your Parker. I admire anyone that is willing to save these fine old shotguns. I was told by several people that the Parker 12GA, DHE, 30", #2 frame that I have was not worth the money it would take to restore. Not being a very bright fellow, I decided to have it restored anyway. I am also one that "cannot afford to be here", so it is one step at a time. This Parker may be the only chance I have at being a custodian for a "D" grade Parker, so it is receiving my attention. Thank you for bringing this one back to life.

[Mills Morrison]

There is something very satisfying about bringing a worn gun back and being able to leave it better than you found it.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Mills is so right on! You can be proud to carry that gun Just remember the times you played with it and then your kids also The gun has a soul I t was just waiting for the right person to put it all together. I know from experience about these old hammer guns they grow on you, congrats Gary

[Mike Franzen]

Seeing that gun looking that good almost makes me want to go break the stock on one of mine. ALMOST! Did you get the barrel wall thickness measured? There are low pressure option besides RST.

[Mike Koneski]

John, if you reload for your shotguns you can remedy the lack of 2 1/2" shells. You can cut down 2 3/4" hulls, get some Ballistic Products (or another wad) in 12g short wad configuration. Get an "Advantages" manual from BP and get to reloading. Just remember the 2 3/4" and 2 1/2" lengths are for the fired hull, not the loaded hull. Takes a little time cutting down the hulls but once you have a stockpile of short hulls you'll be good to go.

[Richard Flanders]

And it's a 1-frame 12ga???? Oh my! Makes it all that much more worth the expense. The bbls and the wood are gorgeous. What a beauty!!

[John Cleveland]

Someone needs to get a few boxes of shells to John. We need a followup report on this gun, to include pics of it in the field taking birds!!

Richard, I have been off the forum for a time between the holidays and traveling, and while searching for low pressure shells and/or appropriate reloading components.

Hodgdon sent me a reloading table for 2 1/2" shells with low pressures. I think I can source all the components, EXCEPT the powder, which is their Universal. Seems simply unavailable:banghead:, although I am on a waiting list at one vendor.

HOWEVER, through the hunting preserve's connection with a fine gun dealer, I managed to score a couple of boxes of RST 2 1/2 light loads.

So, yesterday I took "Lazarus" on a training quail hunt with my dog, "Buck". It was a great day all around. The dog hunted great. So did the Parker. I did not realize how much better it seems I would shoot with a gun that fits so well.

Remember that 3", of 30", were cut off because of a crack at the muzzle, and it is virtually a no choke gun. This worked great at most quail flush shots, and I took down one bird with one pellet in a shot that I knew was just under the bird. The apparent wide spread was just enough. However, it did quite well at several long shots. It cleanly hit a bird that my companions, both of whom are guides, estimated to be 40-45 yards away. When I have a better supply of shells I need to pattern the barrels.

Anyway, Richard, you asked for pictures from the field. Nobody took the time to take action shots, but I am attaching an after hunt picture with the Parker in hand.

[John Cleveland]

Seeing that gun looking that good almost makes me want to go break the stock on one of mine. ALMOST! Did you get the barrel wall thickness measured? There are low pressure option besides RST.

Yes, the gunsmith measured and approved them before we decided whether to proceed with the restoration. Then he proofed them with RST's afterward.

I would appreciate leads on other low pressure vendors. I also tried Polywad, but they are in a similar situation to RST.

[John Cleveland]

John, if you reload for your shotguns you can remedy the lack of 2 1/2" shells. You can cut down 2 3/4" hulls, get some Ballistic Products (or another wad) in 12g short wad configuration. Get an "Advantages" manual from BP and get to reloading. Just remember the 2 3/4" and 2 1/2" lengths are for the fired hull, not the loaded hull. Takes a little time cutting down the hulls but once you have a stockpile of short hulls you'll be good to go.

Thanks. I have purchased the Trim Doctor 2 from BP, and am shooting regular 12 GA 2 3/4's in my Red Label to repurpose the hulls. The manual didn't have options for around or below 7,000 PSI pressure 2 1/2's with components I have been able to source yet, but I will keep trying. As I posted to Richard, Hodgdon sent me a table for 2 1/2' in that range, several 6,700's, but I have not been able to find any of their Universal powder, which all the loads specify.

[John Cleveland]

Mills is so right on! You can be proud to carry that gun Just remember the times you played with it and then your kids also The gun has a soul I t was just waiting for the right person to put it all together. I know from experience about these old hammer guns they grow on you, congrats Gary

Well, my dog trainer said that he bet it became my favorite quail gun, and after only 1 hunt I am tending to agree! Especially after I quickly learned to re-cock the hammer after a shot.:rotf: I am too used to the auto-cocking O/U!

[John Cleveland]

And it's a 1-frame 12ga???? Oh my! Makes it all that much more worth the expense. The bbls and the wood are gorgeous. What a beauty!!

Thanks! The 1-frame's light weight makes it a pleasure to carry, and with the low pressure shells the kick is less than my heavier 12ga Red Label--or maybe the better fit reduces the FELT recoil.