RIO PRIMERS

[Andrew Sacco]

Just ordered from stock Rio 209's from Precision FYI

[Mike Koneski]

Better than nothing!!

[Jeff Kuss]

They are out now.

[Andrew Sacco]

Total newbie stupid question: Are 209 primers interchangeable (other than Cheddites which I know are sized different....). I know some manuals say "DO NOT INTERCHANGE PRIMERS OR YOUR HOO HOO WILL FALL OFF...." But if I'm shooting lead bullets in my 9mm they don't care if they're CCI, Winch or Federal, they go bang and shoot the same. I have 5,000 Cheddites and now 5,000 Rio's on the way (no shot or powder, but hey!!!)

[Randy G Roberts]

Total newbie stupid question: Are 209 primers interchangeable (other than Cheddites which I know are sized different....). I know some manuals say "DO NOT INTERCHANGE PRIMERS OR YOUR HOO HOO WILL FALL OFF...." But if I'm shooting lead bullets in my 9mm they don't care if they're CCI, Winch or Federal, they go bang and shoot the same. I have 5,000 Cheddites and now 5,000 Rio's on the way (no shot or powder, but hey!!!)

Andy:

You can go to my local trap club any Tuesday and sit at the round table of knowledge and I can promise you there will be at least a dozen rocket scientist that will tell you any primer will work in any load. My approach is if it is not in the loading manual or has not been tested I am not touching it. I think it was one of Rosters studies that showed an increase of almost 2,000 psi could be achieved by a simple primer interchange. I think it was Roster, others will correct me if I am in error on that.

If your question of interchanging primers was geared more towards size then see the attached chart. Looks to me like once you use a RIO you have eliminated several of the others based upon the diameters.

[John Davis]

Some primers burn hotter than others, so I would say the brand of primer can have a big impact on the recipe.

[John Dallas]

Tom Roster has tested various primers side by side. Not much difference in velocity, slightly more in pressures.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

[Mike Koneski]

I use Winchester, CCI, Nobel and Fiocchi primers. Cheddite hulls I use Nobel and Fiocchi. Domestic hulls I use Winchester and CCI. I go by primer pocket size only.

BTW, they are out of Rio primers now because Andy had to post that they had 209 primers. Way to go Andy!! :banghead:

[Andrew Sacco]

Thank you everyone for the tips. Mike, you're late to the soup kitchen you don't get the soupy. But then again, I've seen your reloading "room". I do not feel sorry for you : )

[Frank Srebro]

Prior to the current primer shortage one of my shooting buds often commented that Rios are too much trouble to use. I called him earlier and asked why that is ..... in addition to being somewhat oversize and thus hard seating in once-fired American hulls, their leading edge isn't as radiused as other 209 primers and can cause jams (in the seating station) of progressive loaders like MEC 9000's.

[Andrew Sacco]

Prior to the current primer shortage one of my shooting buds often commented that Rios are too much trouble to use. I called earlier and asked him to elaborate ..... in addition to being somewhat oversize and thus hard seating in once-fired American hulls, their leading edge isn't as radiused as other 209 primers and can lead to jams in progressive loaders like MEC 9000's.

Ugh...I'm new to this. I have 5,000 primers for sale cheap : )

[Stan Hillis]

Tom Roster has tested various primers side by side. Not much difference in velocity, slightly more in pressures.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Tom Armbrust has noted differences in patterns when primers are switched.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Stan

[Mike Koneski]

Thank you everyone for the tips. Mike, you're late to the soup kitchen you don't get the soupy. But then again, I've seen your reloading "room". I do not feel sorry for you : )

BWAHAHAHA!! Let’s say I’m not looking for primers!!

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I use Win 209 and Cheddite 209's, have 3000 of each right now. I do use them interchangably. I look at my loads from Hogdon's and Alliant's reloading sites which most of the time will list loads with each of the primers, and there is not any significant difference. a 200psi difference and 25 fps is really not a problem with the low pressure, under 1200 fps loads that I gravitate toward. I have not noticed any problem with seating those 2 primers. I load Gun Clubs in 12 ga, Cheddite/RST 2 1/2" in 16, and AA and GC in 20's'. I dont sub Fed209m or CCIm.

[Randy G Roberts]

Tom Roster has tested various primers side by side. Not much difference in velocity, slightly more in pressures.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

John that is the exact article I was recalling. When I look at Table II I read this as an experiment where various primers were substituted within the same reload that produced pressures that varied as much as 3,320 LUP (wish it would have been stated in PSI). Roster goes on to state that this is "nothing to disregard to say the least". You refer to this as "slightly more in pressures". To me this seems significant. I do not profess to be knowledgeable in ballistics so please educate me, what am I missing ? His writings are the primary reason I never substitute primers or any other components that are not proven.

[John Dallas]

Shame on me! The data I posted was from Tom Armbrust, not Tom Roster

[Randy G Roberts]

Shame on me! The data I posted was from Tom Armbrust, not Tom Roster

I am still calling him Roster :)

[Mike Koneski]

The digging around I have done in the past and info from powder manufacturers was as long as you are not substituting a Federal 209/209A or Cheddite 209 for another 209 style primer the difference is minimal and may even be lesser pressures/velocities depending on the original primer called for. The Federal primers are hotter than Win, Rem, CCI, Fiocchi, Nobel, Rio. Since we are loading on the lower end of SAAMI specs there are viable substitutions. Off the record info from manufacturers is yes, you can substitute the lower burn temp primers. On the record info is dictated by lawyers. It is what it is. :corn:

[Stan Hillis]

It amazes me how many people who reload are so concerned about component substitution (and rightly so), but only so far as it affects pressures. What kills birds and breaks clays reliably isn't proper pressure levels (although they are very important), it's good patterns. Component substitution can and will change patterns. I wish everyone was as concerned with their patterns as they are the pressures. But, they aren't.

I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching to the choir, but it seems to me that those of us who enjoy patterning are few and far between.

[john pulis]

Powder Valley had Winchester primers as of 5pm. 50.00 per thousand.

[Andrew Sacco]

The digging around I have done in the past and info from powder manufacturers was as long as you are not substituting a Federal 209/209A or Cheddite 209 for another 209 style primer the difference is minimal and may even be lesser pressures/velocities depending on the original primer called for. The Federal primers are hotter than Win, Rem, CCI, Fiocchi, Nobel, Rio. Since we are loading on the lower end of SAAMI specs there are viable substitutions. Off the record info from manufacturers is yes, you can substitute the lower burn temp primers. On the record info is dictated by lawyers. It is what it is. :corn:

Mike are saying that Cheddite are also hotter?

[Andrew Sacco]

It amazes me how many people who reload are so concerned about component substitution (and rightly so), but only so far as it affects pressures. What kills birds and breaks clays reliably isn't proper pressure levels (although they are very important), it's good patterns. Component substitution can and will change patterns. I wish everyone was as concerned with their patterns as they are the pressures. But, they aren't.

I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching to the choir, but it seems to me that those of us who enjoy patterning are few and far between.

Yeah, except patterns don't blow you front hand off, pressure does.

[Mike Koneski]

Mike are saying that Cheddite are also hotter?

That's what the data said. Remember though that we are loading on the low end of SAAMI specs too. Not as hot as the Federal 209/209A but burn hotter than the other 209 makers.

I don't use Federal or Cheddite so I can't share any results. I know guys who use Cheddites instead of Rem, Win, etc with no issues.

[Stan Hillis]

Yeah, except patterns don't blow you front hand off, pressure does.


Agreed completely, but note that I didn't say pressures should be ignored, just that the effects on patterns, of switching primers, shouldn't be ignored.

Said another way, while low pressures are beneficial to the life of a vintage gun, they don't guarantee fine patterns. Only pattern testing determines that.

[Mike Koneski]

Pattern testing will only give an indicator of point of impact. A 2D pattern does not give a true representation of a shot string in flight. It is fine for testing if you are shooting at a static target, such as a turkey head.

[Andrew Sacco]

Stan and Mike you both make great points, except for how to make patterning fun. I'm not even sure I know how to pattern properly, I'll ask that in another (sure to be flamed) thread later : )

[Mike Koneski]

Andy, you have your wife stand 70 yards away and shoot three shells at her. Ask her to count how many pellets she feels, multiply that number by seven and call your lawyer. 🤣🤣

[Andrew Sacco]

Andy, you have your wife stand 70 yards away and shoot three shells at her. Ask her to count how many pellets she feels, multiply that number by seven and call your lawyer. 🤣🤣

I probably don't need to shoot at her to have to call my lawyer Mike!! :rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Stan Hillis]

Stan and Mike you both make great points, except for how to make patterning fun. I'm not even sure I know how to pattern properly, I'll ask that in another (sure to be flamed) thread later : )

Andy, I can't say that I find patterning really fun, but I find it so worthwhile that I don't consider it a bother, or a chore. The confidence in my load and gun, that I glean from meticulous pattern testing, transfers to better shooting. And .......... that is fun!

Stan

[Frank Srebro]

Andy, I can't say that I find patterning really fun, but I find it so worthwhile that I don't consider it a bother, or a chore. The confidence in my load and gun, that I glean from meticulous pattern testing, transfers to better shooting. And .......... that is fun!

Stan

Patterning can be made very much easier if you get a 30" and 20" circle template made up of transparent plastic, something like 1/8 or 3/16" thick. Think of a doughnut with a 30" outside diameter and 20" inside diameter.

You slightly open the crimp on at least 3 shells and count the pellets to get an average count. Then replace the pellets in each shell and tighten the crimps using your fingers. Often you'll find that the actual count doesn't match the listed number for that load in terms of ounce/fractions and pellet size.

Set up your paper at 40 yards (or whatever) and shoot offhand at a temporary aiming point centered on the paper. I use a red or yellow sticky note about 2-1/2" square.

Then after shooting you remove the aiming point, eyeball the transparent template to center it over the bulk of the pellet strikes, and draw your outer and inner circles with a pencil. That shows the actual center POI versus the aiming point. Usually the POI doesn't exactly coincide with the aiming point and can be many inches away from shot to shot. After patterning for a while you'll find that some factory ammo is more uniform than others.

Then if using a tightly choked gun you only have to count the pellets outside the 30" circle. Subtract from the average pellet count and you can cipher the efficiency (pattern percentage). For those interested in comparing hot centers for long range performance you can count the pellet strikes in the 20" circle. Lastly, if testing an open choke gun you count the pellet strikes inside the 30" circle as per typical practice and do the math.

Some day you might want to do patterning with spreader shells; that can be eye opening. :whistle:

Now, I know some readers are thinking all this is way too detailed and they just shoot their vintage guns with existing chokes made for bare shot/fiber wads and with random modern shells. Great if that works for you on clays courses and in the field.

[Andrew Sacco]

Thank you Frank. What continues to confuse me is do you pull up and shoot like you would instinctively with clays/birds, or do you AIM and align the bead(s) rib? In the former it's more of a gun FIT patterning. In the latter it's more of a "is my gun shooting to point of aim and are my barrels properly regulated." Right? In the latter case those folks recommend using a rest to stabilize the gun. If I were to rest the gun and line up the beads like I would a rifle, that takes away completely the dynamic nature of how we mount and shoot. But for me it's a moot point because I've yet to develop a consistent mount.

[Stan Hillis]

There are different opinions on that, Andy. Here's mine, and I'm certainly not speaking for my friend Frank. His opinions may differ, and I respect them highly.

I don't like shooting patterns off of a rest. I try to pattern my shotguns as near to the same way I'll be using them as possible. For me, that means shooting offhand when I'm doing pattern testing, and from a sitting position (but not using a rest) when I'm testing for regulation. A rest can and will alter the placement of the patterns, as compared to where the patterns will be when using the gun in the field or on the range. Rests tend to make a gun shoot high, IMO.

Three shot composites, offhand, are pretty good indicators of pattern placement. Placement doesn't matter so much when you're doing pattern percentage testing, because you can pinpoint the center of the pattern before drawing the 30" circle.

[Frank Srebro]

I agree 100% with my friend Stan that pattern testing must be done when firing offhand. That's the technique I learned from the late Kenny Eyster, the noted barrel and choke gunsmith. Pick up and mount/cheek the shotgun as when a shot is presented while hunting, take a split second to align the bead(s) with the aiming point, and fire without dwelling on the bead alignment. Kenny was also adament that shooting off a rest would alter the placement, i.e., center point of impact.

[Andrew Sacco]

Thank you both! I am looking forward to seeing where my guns shoot.

[Stan Hillis]

I would only add that a good trigger makes it all so much easier, and the results more trustworthy. Having good triggers on shotguns is often overlooked, IMO. I have a Parker's triggers being tended to right now. They were entirely too hard/heavy for good shooting.

Stan

[Andrew Sacco]

Well this article I just found helps me understand part of it better, and reflects what Mister Mountain said that we're generally loading well below max pressure anyways when it comes to primers.

https://shootingsportsman.com/high-vs-low-pressure/