New member New gun

[Mark Nethery]

I acquired my first Parker yesterday! After much searching I found either a real closet queen or a very well done professionally restored gun.

VH Grade, 28” barrels, extractors, 98-100% color, 98-100% bluing, 98-100% wood, pistol grip cap is original, inlayed wedge at the top of butt, recoil pad.

Serial #-138,700
Barrel Markings-V(inside circle, Vulcan Steel), WK(inside oval, W King), 3 6(barrel weight, 3lbs 6oz), K(very small, stamped on the lug), no frame designation
Water Table - 138,700(serial #), V(grade)

This is where it starts getting difficult. Center to center of the firing pins measures less than 15/16...”00” frame? Certainly can’t be a “000” frame. This gun was sold as a 20ga and I thought it was a 20ga as well. A 20ga shell falls past the extractors and a 12 ga shell won’t go. After some searching, I located a box 16ga shells and that seems to be the answer.

The fact that it isn’t a 20ga isn’t really an issue, just unexpected, yet a little more collectible in my mind.

Any help on the frame size would be helpful. Any other thoughts are appreciated. Pictures available if there is a way to post, and I might have just figured that out.

[Andrew Sacco]

I don't have the knowledge that most others on here do, but I can tell you the first thing you'll be asked for is more photos of the water table, lugs, side views of stock and forearm, barrel ends..etc. I don't have my serialization book with me at work but I'm sure someone will chime in.

[Bill Murphy]

Measure again, this time not with a carpet store yardstick. Sorry, I couldn't resist. It is probably a #0 frame 16 gauge.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

An O frame 16. It has been reblued, recase colored, and refinished-- but so what. O frame 16's are quite desirable--I was trying to buy one last night on gun broker. Congrats, shoot it proudly. If you post the serial#, we can look it up and tell you how it left the factory.

[Dean Romig]

Unfortunately it's not a closet queen. Every screw slot that we can see has been buggered by previous owners with the wrong size screwdriver and little care to what was happening when they did the deed. There are other issues as well but I'll refrain from enumerating them here.
I don't mean to be hard on you but neither do I believe in keeping quiet when the truth needs to be told.
So this is your first Parker... there will be more and hopefully you'll ask advice here before you pounce on the next one.

I still have two mistakes I made in my earliest years of this Parkeritis affliction most of us have. I'll never be able to sell those two and they'll sit in the back corner of my safe as constant reminders to myself that I didn't take necessary precautions before I made the leap on them.





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[Brian Dudley]

Get those barrels checked out. They have been hot blued. Which is NOT a good thing for doubleguns.

The gun has been rather poorly “restored”. Nothing about any of the finishes is original.

[Jeff Peck]

According to serial number book,

16ga V grade, capped with 28 inch barrels

[Joseph Sheerin]

Get those barrels checked out. They have been hot blued. Which is NOT a good thing for doubleguns.

Long way from being an expert, but that is the first thing that jumped out at me......

There is so much to learn about these old guns, that I'll never be an expert. Have made a few mistakes along the way, and will probably make more.

I spend a lot of time, reading the great information posted on this forum, then spend a lot of time looking at guns on GI and GB, just looking and learning. Applying what I have learned here, and other places. It's amazing how after time, certain things just jump out at you, or at least make you leary of actually buying a gun.

[Mark Nethery]

So here’s the firing pin center to center...1 1/16, making it a 1 frame. It helps when you have your glasses on and measuring with a set of calipers.

With regards to comments of poorly refinished or incorrect restoration; all I can say in response is that, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” I liked what I saw and still see. I purchased it at a great price, especially when compared to guns priced 3 times as much that had a lifetime of use and abuse. I’m not asking you to buy it, collect it or have anything to do with it. You probably have some items in your collections that you are quite proud of that I wouldn’t be very complimentary. Thanks for making the new guy feel welcome.

For those of you that were congratulatory...Thank you for your courtesy!

[John Davis]

Looks like a fine Parker to me. And if the barrels check out and the price was right and you're happy with the gun , then you made a good deal.

[Mark Nethery]

John Davis...Thanks!

[Joseph Sheerin]

I am a relatively new member to this forum, less than a year. I read way more than I write on here. One thing I have noticed though, people like Brian Dudley know more about Parker guns than anyone I've seen, details that most of us will never even notice.

If he says, have your gun checked out, it's probably a good idea to do so.

I wouldn't take any of the comments made as anything more than truthful opinions. Sometimes, they may not be what a person wants to hear or read.

If you are very happy with your gun, then that is really all that matters. But from what I read here, the comments were truthful comments based on what was observed, and nothing more. I wouldn't be upset about that.

I mentioned this when I first joined, I made the mistake of putting a Siler lock on a Southern Mountain flintlock I made, and posted pics of it on the American Longrifles site. I still have rug burn over that one, cause any idiot knows you don't put a Germanic lock on a Southern Mountain rifle. :-)

Live and Learn. Welcome to the site!

[Steve Huffman]

Mark you stated in your post " Any other thoughts are appreciated " so I guess you didnt mean to say that as the information you received you cant appreciate . The people are being honest with their information and Not trying to slam your gun .

[Mark Nethery]

Not to drag this out but when a new member asks a question, seeks thoughts & opinions it would go a lot further if comments received were constructive, as opposed to buggered, poorly restored, etc...keep in mind everyone is proud of their latest purchase, whether its a museum piece or a piece of crap.

I've got thick skin, someone else might not. We've got a saying around here, "Never talk bad about another man's dog." There should be a caveat substituting gun for dog.

I came to this group to learn more about this gun and its history. I like the gun, its what I wanted. I'll proudly carry and shoot it for what it is, a piece of American firearms history and it will stand in the cabinet next to my LeFevers, Foxes, Sterlingworths, Springfields, Spanish & Italian guns.

I'm thankful for the input and have learned a lot and confirmed a lot, for that I thank you all.

So tomorrow I'll start my morning with a cup of black coffee, gather my gear, my new Parker and be off to quail hunt.

I'd say wish me luck but I'm shooting a Parker now. Say Goodnight Gracie.

[John Davis]

I would take Brian’s advice and get those barrels checked out before I started running shells through her.

[allen newell]

Mark, listen to Brian Dudley and John Davis. Don't shoot that 16 till you have a competent gunsmith check it out.

[Brian Dudley]

Someones angst seems to be directed towards my comments about having the barrels looked at. And in regards to the fact that the whole gun has been fully restored, and rather poorly. Well, I will say that was my way of a addressing YOUR statements that you did not know if the gun was a safe queen or restored. I answered your question that you did not know the answer to. And saying you should get the barrels looked at is because they are very obviously hot caustic salt blued. Which, allow me to educsted you on, is BAD for doubleguns because the temperatures needed for this process can and usually will soften and compromise the solder joints of the ribs. Resulting in loosened ribs, and rusting between the tubes inside the barrel set. Not to mention it also looks like crap.

I did not say anything about why you would buy a gun not even knowing what gauge it was. That is a good question though. And, the frame size should be stamped right on the bottom lug of the barrels. To answer another question of yours.

I am sorry that I, and others, have not told you what you WANTED to hear. If you like the gun, then fine. That is all that matters. There is a butt for every seat.

[Mark Nethery]

Thank you gentlemen. Any concerns with the barrels have been addressed earlier today. A clean bill of health was received.

[Gerald McPherson]

I told my hunting buddy one time " I don't know which one I enjoy most bragging on my dog or throwing off on yours".

[Bruce Day]

A person who wants to learn about Parkers should buy The Parker Story .

[Andrew Sacco]

A person who wants to learn about Parkers should buy The Parker Story .

Talk about drowning in information, but worth every single penny. One mistake can cost thousands. I justified it as "insurance." I think I learn more from this site with (honest) criticism of guns. The PS I use as a reference as it's hard to digest and remember everything.

[Chris Robenalt]

Welcome Mark, Nothing better than your first Parker! It's hard to find one that hasn't been touched in one way or another. I know it may seem like some are ganging up or bullying you, but I think they're eager to steer you in the direction of what is correct and what is not. I take all remarks or negative comments as constructive criticism. There are alot of great people here in the PGCA, and a lot to be learned. I'm still learning myself, and I work on these guns daily. You should become a member and get in the loop, I guarantee you won't regret it. The people here are very supportive of your love for the Parker. I'm a believer in, if you like it, buy it! I've done it many times, and I'm having fun! Now get out and shoot that gun!
Chris, AZ

[Alfred Greeson]

Tough advice may not sound good but as mentioned, you can spend a lot of money on a Parker and make a mistake but you live and learn but will always appreciate the advice the next time you look at one and recall what you learned. Many of us have bought before we knew what we were doing and that's ok, just hard to admit. Folks like Brian will teach you and help you all they can and without their advice, I would have made mistakes that could have cost me more than I want to admit....join the club, you will never find a better group of folks to help and teach you to be a proud owner of the best America shotgun ever built. I recently was asked to evaluate a 20 ga. that a friend had bought and even fired, but it was no 20, just another 16, wasn't a Parker but obvious numbers can be changed or altered. If you don't know where to look, you just didn't know, lesson learned and a good laugh later.

[Tom Flanigan]

.... And saying you should get the barrels looked at is because they are very obviously hot caustic salt blued. Which, allow me to educsted you on, is BAD for doubleguns because the temperatures needed for this process can and usually will soften and compromise the solder joints of the ribs. Resulting in loosened ribs, and rusting between the tubes inside the barrel set. Not to mention it also looks like crap.




Not to disagree with Brian, he has a lot more experience and expertise than I do, but those barrels might not have been caustic salt blued, in my opinion. They could have been done by the Belgian type of blue which is not intrusive. Belgian type blues are darker and shinier than slow rust bluing.

I noticed that the barrels are pretty much soaked with oil. This could result in the shiny and dark appearance. The pictures may not be perfect which could also create a false impression. I believe that we need the barrels in hand to definitively identify the method of bluing.

The case colors do not mimic Parker colors but aren’t bad. It’s hard for me to imagine that someone who has the expertise to case color a gun would salt blue the barrels of a double.

Just my thoughts.

As far as the gun, a 16 bore 0 frame is nothing to sneeze at. They make great game guns. I wish I owned one. Enjoy yours Mark and welcome to the Parker community.

[Mark Nethery]

I hit the fields today with the new Parker. It was easy to swing, smooth triggers, very light recoil and deadly on quail! Couldn’t be happier.

I have one technical question that hasn’t been answered and is confusing. The marking on the barrel lug is a “K”, not “0” as the proper frame designation. Can anyone shed any light on this?
93486

93487

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Should be a 0 on that lug. With a n unstruck barrel weight of 3 lbs 6 oz, it is a little heavier than mine, but that makes it swing better IMHO. The serial book says O frame.
Looks better in those pictures, did you hunt over your dogs?

[Mark Nethery]

Agreed, should be “0”, but it’s not. Gun swings very well. Total gun weight is exactly 6.5lbs. Yes hunted over my dogs. One of many photos today.

[Dean Romig]

I've seen quite a few Parkers without the frame size stamp. Rest assured it's a 0-frame if the firing pins spacing says it is.

The K on the lug was an inspector's mark but with the W.K. stamp (Walter King, gun works superintendent after his father's death in 1910,) the K isn't his stamp.





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[John Davis]

Another satisfied Parker customer.

[John Davis]

Nice gun, nice dogs. Are those Tennessee Reds?

[Mark Nethery]

Yes those are Tennessee Reds. Fast flying little suckers!

[Mark Nethery]

Yes Tennessee Reds...fast little suckers too.

[Greg Baehman]

So here’s the firing pin center to center...1 1/16, making it a 1 frame. It helps when you have your glasses on and measuring with a set of calipers.

***snip***


Didn't the original poster tell us, after re-measuring, that it's a 1-frame?

[Mark Nethery]

That’s me and that is the measurement center to center of the firing pins. Verified by 2 machinists. But the Parker Holy Grail says “0”. If there is another measurement for further verification I will gladly take.

[Mark Nethery]

See the attached photo and look into the lug seating area, my terminology, you will see a 70 or OL. Does this indicate anything?

[Chuck Bishop]

Last couple of digits of the S/N. Most small parts have a partial S/N.

[Steve Huffman]

last 3 numbers of your serial number take trigger plate off and you would see the other 0 means its original to the gun

[Steve Huffman]

What frame size are you calling this ? What is the measurement again ? Im confused

[Mark Nethery]

The Parker records shown earlier in this thread for this serial # shows that it should be a “0” frame. Verified measurement center to center of the firing pins is 1 1/16”... as I understand it that would be a 1 frame.

Don’t feel bad, I’m confused too.

[Steve Huffman]

Now I know why Im confused the 0 shown in that post means there is no extras to the gun if its 1 1/16 its a 1 frame it could maybe be a 1/2 frame if the breech side to side is 1 5/8 but if that is 1 3/4 its a 1 frame

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Great looking pointers. One day I'm going to have to have one, I have 3 female english setters now, really should only have 2, but all 3 are quite proficient bird dogs.

[Chris Robenalt]

I looked at the pic of the barrel flats again, and I see what looks like a very faint " 1 " on the lug. ¿Quien Sabe?
Chris, AZ

[Steve Huffman]

I looked at the pic of the barrel flats again, and I see what looks like a very faint " 1 " on the lug. ¿Quien Sabe?
Chris, AZ

Its a faint something looks to have been filed or polished and not that clear of picture

[Brian Dudley]

What is all this talk about the Parker records and the serialization book? The serialization book does not give frame sizes for guns. And though some of the factory records do, which only chuck has free access to, the frame size is not given if a PGCA research letter is supplied. The owner has given the measurement of the firing pin spacing, which equals that of a 1 frame. The normal marking on the barrel for the frame size looks to have been removed, or in a rarer instance, could have not been put there to begin with (which I doubt).
But given the barrels have been refinished, I stand by the former.

There are of course other measurements on the frame that can be taken to confirm it is in fact a 1 frame, such as frame width, height of the standing breech and the width of the breech balls.

Ultimately, those birds didn't care what sized frame was delivering the payload.

[Dean Romig]

That’s me and that is the measurement center to center of the firing pins. Verified by 2 machinists. But the Parker Holy Grail says “0”. If there is another measurement for further verification I will gladly take.

There is absolutely no reason a 20 gauge Parker can’t be a 1-frame or a 1 1/2-frame or a 2-frame.... we have seen all of those frame sizes in 20 gauge.






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[Mark Nethery]

Somebody has really good eyes. If the Mark being referenced is just about center of the lug it could be very well be what’s left of a 1. I put under a magnifier and it does bring it out more. The pin spacing gives credence that the Mark could be a 1.

Mr Dudley, i read your post to say that frame size isn’t given with a research letter. Is that correct?

[Brian Dudley]

Mr Dudley, i read your post to say that frame size isn’t given with a research letter. Is that correct?

Correct. Some of the factory records have the frame size listed. This would be in the stock books. The order books would not have any mention of frame size. Since the frame sizes are not always listed in all of the stock books, it is a piece of information that is not put into the letters. Mostly it is the later stock books that have the frame sizes listed. I am sure that if you ordered a letter for your gun, and then followed up with Chuck, he may tell you if there is any mention of the frame size in the stock book or not.

Chuck, please add any information to this topic if you wish or correct me on any point if I have misspoke at all.

[Mark Nethery]

Paying dues and requesting a letter tomorrow.

[Steve Huffman]

Paying dues and requesting a letter tomorrow.

Your hooked ! Welcome

[Harold Lee Pickens]

The unstruck barrel weight at 3-6, kind of leads me to believe it is a 1 frame. My 1 frame 16 VH has barrel weight of 3-5. For years it was my go to gun, along with a SW Deluxe 16

[Chuck Bishop]

Brian is correct. The last 6 stock books we have changed to a vertical style starting with S/N 213778 and gave the frame sizes. In very rare cases a frame size was requested in an order book entry but not in this case. If the frame size can't be read on the lug, the only way to determine frame size is thru measurements of the frame.

[Mark Nethery]

If a person wanted to have the screws replaced and qualified who best to talk to? Inquiring minds want to know?

Thanks in advance!

[Dean Romig]

Replacing screws is not an inexpensive proposition. They are not simply replaced but are fitted and then the slots are cut.

Contact Brian Dudley by PM on this forum.





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