Warning on Parker 3644

[Jay Oliver]

I was looking at the current Wards auctions and saw a listing for a beautiful early 10 gauge lifter. I then realized that I had bought this gun in 2015, but returned it after the inspection period due to a few cracks in the barrels. In my initial post I didn't put a space between the serial # so it doesn't show up on our forum if you search the serial # which is 3644

I paid a lot more than the current bid which was part of the reason I returned it. For the right price you could certainly pay for for repairs(if possible) or find new barrels(and to be honest I am a little tempted to watch the auction and possibly bid). This was my first higher grade Parker and I loved everything about it. I paid $4k for it and just couldn't live with the barrels needing work for that price. And the barrels might not be fixable. I do have the PGCA letter on it as well.

Here is my original post from 2015: http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16194

Here is the link to the gun on Wards(I hope I am not violating any rules by posting this...): https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=4346

The description looked familiar "bores are excellent and bright" The way the lighting is you don't see one of the cracks at first because of the glare. But I was able to see it after going back and forth between pictures.

Anyway, hopefully this will help someone make an informed purchase...

[Garry L Gordon]

Jay, thanks for the alert.

[Wayne Owens]

I asked the question of Wards regarding this gun because the photo shows what looks like a crack right above the forend of the right barrel. This was Eric Ward's response: " The barrel does have fracture, no dents or bulges ". This was two days ago and their description of the gun hasn't changed to include this observation. The current bid amount however keeps increasing.:shock:

[Brian Dudley]

That is a shame. It looks like a great gun otherwise.

So they will disclose it only if asked about it? How do these places get away with this crap. I guess that is just the way it is. Always have your guard up.

[Andrew Sacco]

What is funny is I JUST got done looking at that gun about two minutes ago, with no intention to buy it for the simple reason I don't have any desire to. Great info to pass along Jay.

[Andrew Sacco]

And I'm just going to throw this out there, don't flame me. But what if you got it for CHEAP and you put Briley tubes in it, is that a solution to at least make it safe as a 12 ga shooter??

[Jay Oliver]

My guess is this one has been passed around a few times with buyers being surprised and upset. From memory, I believe the chambers had been lengthened 2 7/8" but don't hold me to that. I don't know if you can put 12 gauge tubes in a 10, maybe 16 gauge tubes.

To me this might be a good one to buy and search for a second set of barrels(if you got it at the right price). The gun did have great stock dimensions. It fit me perfectly. Edit- from the PGCA Letter LOP is 14 1/2 not 14 as listed on the auction description and 14 1/2 is my magic LOP#

The gun is being misrepresented and I see the buyer being upset and rightfully so.

[Phil Yearout]

Apparently they don't disclose it even IF asked about it :nono:

[Mike Koneski]

And I'm just going to throw this out there, don't flame me. But what if you got it for CHEAP and you put Briley tubes in it, is that a solution to at least make it safe as a 12 ga shooter??

Yes, that is an option. A heavy option for a 12 bore, but an option. Then find another 10g bbl set for that frame and you have a two-fer. Better than having a nice gun never shot again or used for parts.

[Bill Murphy]

Jay, a PGCA search for that serial number will still not identify that gun. You put a period after the 3644 in your post.

[Jay Oliver]

Thanks Bill, I was hoping the title of the thread would show up in a search. I went back and deleted the period and you mentioned 3644 as well. So there is good documentation now.

[Andrew Sacco]

Yes, that is an option. A heavy option for a 12 bore, but an option. Then find another 10g bbl set for that frame and you have a two-fer. Better than having a nice gun never shot again or used for parts.

Mike somehow I KNEW you would answer this question : )

[Bruce Day]

Many composite and fluid steel barrels with cracks have been welded and shot for years thereafter.

[Larry Stauch]

Is this something they added to address the issue?

"The right barrel has multiple minute hairline cracks (before firing we recommend it be examined by a professional gunsmith)."

[Wayne Owens]

Is this something they added to address the issue?

"The right barrel has multiple minute hairline cracks (before firing we recommend it be examined by a professional gunsmith)."
That sentence was recently added in the middle of the description of the gun. I wonder if the current bidders were notified of this fact.

[Drew Hause]

I saved your image Jay. The crack looks to be the 'zipper weld' between rods ie down the middle of the scrolls and not the straight ribband edge weld. There also appears to be a perpendicular defect of some sort.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Defects/i-BGSWcm8/0/5c1ae4c6/M/JayOliver%24100Lifter-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Defects/i-BGSWcm8/A)

Any attempt at repair that close to the breech would be risky. Do you recall the wall thickness at the fracture?

[Jay Oliver]

I am glad they added that additional note, but it is not as direct as I would have worded it. I might have said "The barrels have a few cracks in them and may not be shootable in their current condition"

Drew I didn't measure the wall thickness back when I briefly had the gun. I was a new to Parkers and didn't have the tools. Sadly, 6 years later and I still don't have the right tool to measure wall thickness. I am making it a priority this year to get a Hosford wall thickness gauge. I really should have one...

I will say that I remember when I put a flashlight to it on the outside of the barrel I could see a little bit of light coming through on the inside. Not a good situation...that is right where your hand would be. Even if the cracks were welded, I am not sure I would feel comfortable shooting that.

[Jay Oliver]

I have to give Ward's Auction credit the bid is back down to $500. They must have notified all of the bidders after the barrels issues were posted. It was at $1167 the last time I checked. They must have given bidders the option to cancel given the updated condition. I think that was the right thing to do and it is nice to see.

I almost want this as a project now...

[Mike Koneski]

At $500 I may bid and have tubes put in it.

[Jay Oliver]

Do tubes have to be permanent? I was thinking that 12 gauge tubes wouldn't fit inside a 10 gauge? That the tubes would need to be 16 gauge to fit?

For some strange reason I think I want to save this one. It's like a second chance and I know more now(I think). My mission though, would be to try and find another set of barrels in 10 or 12. While I am patiently waiting, I could have the current barrels evaluated and see if there are any options that makes sense.

I remember hating having to return this 6 years ago even though it was the right thing to do...

[Mike Koneski]

Jay, tubes do not need to be permanent. They will be made to fit nice and snug. Briley did some for me. Turned a “parts gun” into a nice shooter. As for whether 12g tubes will fit, you’d need to ask Briley.

[Mark Britton]

I say Buy Barrels first ! If you have questions now ? You will likely have sorrow later ! And WHAT Brian said I copyed my post Second time I have said the same thing tonight ! LOL

[Brian Dudley]

Briley does not offer tubes for 10g guns. I inquired with them on this a few months ago on this point. Only a 12g. And that would have to step down to 20g.

Yeah, if the price is low, it may make a worthwhile project.

[John Davis]

You’ve also got the option to sleeve or monobloc the barrels.

[Joe Graziano]

Some poor guy got taken for $1470. Around and around it goes, passing to its 50th owner. I’d never heard of Ward’s but I will be sure never to bid with them.

[Bill Murphy]

Briley DOES offer 20 gauge Ultralight tubes for ten gauge guns, at least their price list has shown this option for many years. $749 minus any dealer discount you can find. Your would then have screw chokes for the 20 gauge tubes. Brian may have talked to them during a time that they didn't have any 10 gauge tubes premade.

[Jay Oliver]

After thinking about it...I wanted a second chance with this Parker. I wanted to get it it fixed or find another set of barrels(or both). There was so much I liked about the gun when I first got it. Here is the PGCA letter from when I bought it the first time.

I am looking forward to being reunited after 6 years and giving her the attention she deserves.

[Garry L Gordon]

After thinking about it...I wanted a second chance with this Parker. I wanted to get it it fixed or find another set of barrels(or both). There was so much I liked about the gun when I first got it. Here is the PGCA letter from when I bought it the first time.

I am looking forward to being reunited after 6 years and giving her the attention she deserves.

Reads like a gun with a history of good use. No wonder it has a couple of battle scars.

[Brett Hoop]

Glad you got the gun. Please let us know how it works out.

[Brian Dudley]

Briley DOES offer 20 gauge Ultralight tubes for ten gauge guns, at least their price list has shown this option for many years. $749 minus any dealer discount you can find. Your would then have screw chokes for the 20 gauge tubes. Brian may have talked to them during a time that they didn't have any 10 gauge tubes premade.



They just told me they offered no option for 10g barrels. Their words.

And besides, for the project I contacted them on, going to 20g was not a desired option. I was inquiring about 10 to 12 possibilities. The gun was chambered 12g but had 10g sized bores that were very rough. I was thinking of punching the chambers out to 10g size and then permanently installing 12g tubes. It was a C grade bernard barreled hammer gun. We wanted to keep the bernard barrels and maintain it as a 12g. To date a solution has not yet been thought up.

[Mike Franzen]

Many composite and fluid steel barrels with cracks have been welded and shot for years thereafter.

As Bruce stated welding might be the easiest and simplest solution. I owned a gun that was repaired this way and helped a few of our members out by taking their barrels to the company that did the work. After the weld was polished out Dale Edmonds refinished the barrels and the repair was undetectable.

[Jay Oliver]

Thanks Bruce and Mike,

I am definitely going to see if welding can be done with these barrels.

[Eric Estes]

I sent a set of 1877 twist barrels to Brad several years ago for refinishing. They failed his pressure test with a hole from a dent repair in the muzzle third of the barrels. I had no clue it was there as I had not shot the gun yet. He had it welded up and refinished them. They look and shoot great. You would never find the spot if you did not know exactly where to look.

So IMO it is definitely possible with the right smith, depending on the details of the issue and where the damage is.

[Bruce Day]

Thanks Bruce and Mike,

I am definitely going to see if welding can be done with these barrels.

Yes, there was a lot of talk about trying to find another set of barrels , monoblocking, sleeving , all sorts of difficult, costly and time consuming solutions. People have been welding small cracks and holes in barrels for years with good results. Of course the sensible thing to do would be to run some heavy loads through it after the repair but none of the barrels that I know of that have been competently welded have failed.

I once posted here a photo of a Parker barrel that had about a 3/4” square area cut out and a patch welded in . It was old , maybe since the 1920’s or 30’s. The bluing was mostly worn from the patch area from use .

[Drew Hause]

IMO repair of through cracks in the proximal 1/3 of a pattern welded barrel is an entirely different issue than the distal 1/3, where pressure is < 1000 psi, and depending on the load may be < 500 psi.

IF the barrels are welded in the proximal 1/3 I would strongly urge formal proof testing. Some options:

H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. in Maryland and Cortland, New York. They will test at 1 and 1/2 times the pressure of your intended load if asked to do so.
www.hpwhite.com

Entropy Engineering Corporation
http://www.entropyec.com/

Chesapeake Testing
http://chesapeaketesting.com/services/outdoor-blast-testing/

Dayton T. Brown
http://www.dtbtest.com/Default.aspx

Please let us know if you proceed and how it works out.

[Brian Dudley]

I would wager a guess that the gun has been shot more than a few times after the crack showed up. Just a guess.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, the test I give a gun before I can get to my wall thickness gauge is "Did it blow up in the last fifty years use of high brass Super-X shells?" The answer is always, NO.

[Bruce Day]

H.P. White Laboratory, Inc. in Maryland and Cortland, New York. They will test at 1 and 1/2 times the pressure of your intended load if asked to do so.
www.hpwhite.com




So can you , me or Bubba down the road. You will need a tire, rope to tie the gun to the tire and string to tie to the trigger. Cost is minimal .

[Jay Oliver]

I will keep everyone posted on the progress of this gun. A PGCA member already reached out to me they think they might have a set of barrels that would work, which I am excited about. I do want to attempt to repair the original barrels as well.

I have a few leads, but who would you recommend to weld(and pressure test) the barrels?

Thanks,
Jay

[Jay Oliver]

I was reunited with this Parker today after 6 years and I am really glad I decided to take on this project. It is such a nice gun and I am cautiously optimistic I can get the barrels fixed and I am also hoping to find another set of barrels to try just in case.

While there were a lot of pictures of this gun, you can really see how great it is in natural light. I can't tell you how happy I am to have this back!

[Jay Oliver]

One of the things I have been trying to do, which I did not do last time s determine the frame size on this 10 gauge. Seems like it could be a 3 or a 4. The width of the receiver seems small for this gun. This is an early gun so there is not a frame size on the lug. Here are some key measurements.

Width of barrels at breach - 2.48"

Distance between firing pins - 1 1/4"

Distance between bolsters wasn't sure of the best measurement on this. At the furthest most point between raised sculped edges it's 2 5/8" right at the breach next to the barrels it the same as the barrels at 2.48"

Distance across hinge Pin - 1 5/8"

Standing breach height - 1 3/8"

It seems like aspects of 3 and 4 frames sizes though the barrels are slightly narrower at the breach than my #4 frame top action parker from 1886. Since this is an early gun it might not have been standardized yet.