Choke indications ?

[Bruce Hering]

Friend and I were talking this past week about different gun company's using different means of describing choke.

I have seen a Parker with both barrels labeled Skeet IN. Am I correct in assuming this should likely be .005 constriction ?

Thanks and thank you for allowing me to become a member here. This just my first post but likely not my last.

[Dave Noreen]

Only the Skeet Guns and the very late Ilion made guns had choke markings.

My December 1940 16-gauge --

92567

[Bruce Hering]

Thanks. I understand the labeling but wanted to know what choke dimension barrels labeled Skeet In was.

Is it .005 that a given skeet choke on a 12 ga. gun or is it something else ?

[Dean Romig]

SKEET IN on both barrel flats? That would be a first for me. In every case I’ve ever seen a Skeet marker Ilion Parker one is marked SKEET IN while the flat under the other barrel is marked SKEET OUT.






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[Chad Hefflinger]

I have a 16 gauge skeet gun marked skeet in and skeet out. The actual constriction on this gun is .011” and .008”
I had a 12 gauge skeet gun at one time that measured a little tighter yet at .014” and .011”

[Bruce Hering]

I have a 16 gauge skeet gun marked skeet in and skeet out. The actual constriction on this gun is .011” and .008”
I had a 12 gauge skeet gun at one time that measured a little tighter yet at .014” and .011”

Heff: so that would be .011 (skeet out) on the first barrel and .008 (skeet in) on the second unless of course you have a selective trigger....

[Dean Romig]

Or squeeze the trigger for the choke you want for your first shot....





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[Phillip Carr]

I may be mistaken but I believe I recall a discussion several years ago about what choke measurements for Skeet in and Skeet out were for different gauges. Based on members feedback there was no set restriction even by gauge. It varied widely if I am recalling correctly.

[Dean Romig]

Right Phil - chokes were cut by testing patterns. Maybe there was a starting measurement in thousandths of an inch but the final cuts were most likely done after successive patterning.





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[Chad Hefflinger]

Heff: so that would be .011 (skeet out) on the first barrel and .008 (skeet in) on the second unless of course you have a selective trigger....

That is correct skeet out (tighter) on the right barrel, skeet in on the left (more open). Both guns also had a Parker single select trigger as well, so you could change this around if you wanted and shoot the left barrel first.

[Chad Hefflinger]

Right Phil - chokes were cut by testing patterns. Maybe there was a starting measurement in thousandths of an inch but the final cuts were most likely done after successive patterning.





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What Dean says, I have a 20 gauge and a different 16 that were ordered from the factory with "cylinder" chokes according to their letters in the right barrel and full in the left. The 20 measures about .0045" and the 16 is just under .006". I am sure both of these guns threw a "cylinder" pattern when they left Meriden.

[Bruce Hering]

Or squeeze the trigger for the choke you want for your first shot.....

Dean that works great with a two trigger gun.... not so much on a single, even selective trigger gun.... LOL

Thanks all for the info....

[Drew Hause]

Found this in my files, and more than the OP probably wants :)
More here with contributions from Dave
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401138

An ad introducing the L.C. Smith “Skeet Upland Special” appeared in Hunting and Fishing in June, 1928 and it was shown with double triggers, pistol grip stock, and splinter forend.
In the Hunter Arms 1929 catalog, the “Upland” was gone and the “Skeet Special” was shown with a straight grip stock, checkered wood butt, “Skeet Choke No. 1 right and No. 2 left,” and “Streamline Beaver Tail Forend,” at a price of $47; $92 with Hunter One-Trigger and Automatic Ejectors.
I’ve seen no Hunter Arms literature nor advertisements explaining the No. 1 & No. 2 chokes. Later catalog listings stated “bored to order from full to cylinder”.
Measurements:
1928 Skeet Special 12g - The left barrel will not allow the 12g full choke ring to enter. The right barrel allows the improved modified choke ring to enter.
1934 Skeet Special 12g - .007 left & .015 right
Skeet Special 12g - .035 left & .015 right.
Premier Skeet 12g - .016 left & .014 right.
1949 Premier Skeet 12g - .005 left & .010 right

The A.H. Fox “Skeeter” was introduced in 1931 and the “Sterlingworth Skeet and Upland” in 1935, with automatic ejectors, Fox-Kautzky selective single trigger, beavertail forend, recoil pad, and ivory beads.
In the Savage-era Fox catalogues they listed the chokes of their Skeet guns as Skeet Cylinder right and 1/4 choke left.
Measurements:
2 Fox guns, 1936 & 1937, guns both have .728” bore.
The left barrels have .010" choke and the right barrels have .004" and .005" constriction, then flare to .740" in the last inch.

The Ithaca NID “Skeet Special” was advertised in the July 1926 National Sportsman, only 2 months after the game was named! The Ithaca Lefever Grade A Skeet Model with AE, ST, BTFE and “skeet chokes” was introduced in 1934.
2 Ithaca NIDs, 1935 & 1936, have choke designations of ‘S’ on all four tubes (courtesy of David Noreen). 12g - .016 left & .009 right 20g - .014 left & .008 right

An Ithaca Gun Co. engineering drawing (courtesy of Walt Snyder) dated 7-3-34 shows the 12g right barrel to have a bore of .730” with a .005” constriction starting 2 1/2” from the muzzle, then an enlarged bore at the rate of .010” per inch over 2 1/4” with a bore of .7525” at the muzzle. The left barrel bore is .729” with a choke constriction length of 1 1/4” to .718” at the muzzle (.011” choke).
20g left barrel bore is .621 and .6385 at the muzzle. Right bore .615 to .607 at the muzzle.

Parker
A 1932 Parker advertising folder showed a “Special Skeet Gun” with “skeet-in/skeet-out” chokes, 26-inch barrels, AE, single trigger, straight stock and beavertail forend, but factory production records have identified guns as early as 1929 specified as having “skeet-in/skeet-out” chokes.
pp. 410-411 in The Parker Story section on Skeet Guns, indicates that the right bbl. is choked tighter since it is usually fired first, and the first target in a Skeet double is the outgoing one and shot at a longer range than the incoming, second bird.
3 measurements:
Skeet-configured VHE 12g - .020 left & .017 right
GHE 20 - .011 left & .014 right.
VHE 20 - .010 left & .008 right.

In 1937, the Stevens “No. 500 Skeet Single Trigger Double Barrel Hammerless Shotgun” was introduced with 26- or 28-inch barrels in 12- and 16-gauges and 26-inch barrels in 20-gauge with “…special Skeet boring for Skeet, Brush or Upland Shooting.” The “special Skeet boring” is not explained.

20g ventilated rib SKEET barrel for a Remington “Sportsman” and a 12g Remington Model 31 SKEET barrel have .005” - .006” constriction with a flare in the last inch to the muzzle. (Courtesy of David Noreen)

Capt. E.C. Crossman “Skeet Gun Patterns” in August 1936 Hunting & Fishing
He formerly believed…“the proper boring for a double 12 Skeet gun consisted of an improved cylinder right for Station 8 and incomers, and a much tighter tube on the left for the outgoers and all singles except Station 8; such a boring as improved modified or the famous Winchester No. 2 Skeet, or in barrel measurements, around .015”.”
But now feels “the Winchester No. 2 Skeet boring is too tight…” and “improved cylinder or No. 1 boring is both barrels seems about the right dope.”

He went on to criticize the Cutts spreader tube on single barrel guns for skeet, but did not define the tube diameter.
He mentioned a Fox with .011” left and a Model 32 Remington “bored for skeet” lower barrel .012”.

“Improved cylinder is the greatest degree to which a plain barrel should be opened, this being not less than .004”. The finest example of this at present is the Winchester No. 1 Skeet boring, which has about .004 choke at a point 3” from the muzzle. The muzzle section then becomes larger…until finally the barrel at the muzzle is about …0.750” instead of the normal 0.730” of the 12. This is a relieved muzzle or bell muzzle, originated by Ithaca years ago.”

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Drew, that vindicates a few things I’ve said on this forum several times in the past... that I had learned from the things I had read in your discoveries. Such things as the reversed chokes on some manufacturers’ Skeet guns.





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[Bruce Hering]

Found this in my files, and more than the OP probably wants :)
More here with contributions from Dave
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401138

An ad introducing the L.C. Smith “Skeet Upland Special” appeared in Hunting and Fishing in June, 1928 and it was shown with double triggers, pistol grip stock, and splinter forend.
In the Hunter Arms 1929 catalog, the “Upland” was gone and the “Skeet Special” was shown with a straight grip stock, checkered wood butt, “Skeet Choke No. 1 right and No. 2 left,” and “Streamline Beaver Tail Forend,” at a price of $47; $92 with Hunter One-Trigger and Automatic Ejectors.
I’ve seen no Hunter Arms literature nor advertisements explaining the No. 1 & No. 2 chokes. Later catalog listings stated “bored to order from full to cylinder”.
Measurements:
1928 Skeet Special 12g - The left barrel will not allow the 12g full choke ring to enter. The right barrel allows the improved modified choke ring to enter.
1934 Skeet Special 12g - .007 left & .015 right
Skeet Special 12g - .035 left & .015 right.
Premier Skeet 12g - .016 left & .014 right.
1949 Premier Skeet 12g - .005 left & .010 right

The A.H. Fox “Skeeter” was introduced in 1931 and the “Sterlingworth Skeet and Upland” in 1935, with automatic ejectors, Fox-Kautzky selective single trigger, beavertail forend, recoil pad, and ivory beads.
In the Savage-era Fox catalogues they listed the chokes of their Skeet guns as Skeet Cylinder right and 1/4 choke left.
Measurements:
2 Fox guns, 1936 & 1937, guns both have .728” bore.
The left barrels have .010" choke and the right barrels have .004" and .005" constriction, then flare to .740" in the last inch.

The Ithaca NID “Skeet Special” was advertised in the July 1926 National Sportsman, only 2 months after the game was named! The Ithaca Lefever Grade A Skeet Model with AE, ST, BTFE and “skeet chokes” was introduced in 1934.
2 Ithaca NIDs, 1935 & 1936, have choke designations of ‘S’ on all four tubes (courtesy of David Noreen). 12g - .016 left & .009 right 20g - .014 left & .008 right

An Ithaca Gun Co. engineering drawing (courtesy of Walt Snyder) dated 7-3-34 shows the 12g right barrel to have a bore of .730” with a .005” constriction starting 2 1/2” from the muzzle, then an enlarged bore at the rate of .010” per inch over 2 1/4” with a bore of .7525” at the muzzle. The left barrel bore is .729” with a choke constriction length of 1 1/4” to .718” at the muzzle (.011” choke).
20g left barrel bore is .621 and .6385 at the muzzle. Right bore .615 to .607 at the muzzle.

Parker
A 1932 Parker advertising folder showed a “Special Skeet Gun” with “skeet-in/skeet-out” chokes, 26-inch barrels, AE, single trigger, straight stock and beavertail forend, but factory production records have identified guns as early as 1929 specified as having “skeet-in/skeet-out” chokes.
pp. 410-411 in The Parker Story section on Skeet Guns, indicates that the right bbl. is choked tighter since it is usually fired first, and the first target in a Skeet double is the outgoing one and shot at a longer range than the incoming, second bird.
3 measurements:
Skeet-configured VHE 12g - .020 left & .017 right
GHE 20 - .011 left & .014 right.
VHE 20 - .010 left & .008 right.

In 1937, the Stevens “No. 500 Skeet Single Trigger Double Barrel Hammerless Shotgun” was introduced with 26- or 28-inch barrels in 12- and 16-gauges and 26-inch barrels in 20-gauge with “…special Skeet boring for Skeet, Brush or Upland Shooting.” The “special Skeet boring” is not explained.

20g ventilated rib SKEET barrel for a Remington “Sportsman” and a 12g Remington Model 31 SKEET barrel have .005” - .006” constriction with a flare in the last inch to the muzzle. (Courtesy of David Noreen)

Capt. E.C. Crossman “Skeet Gun Patterns” in August 1936 Hunting & Fishing
He formerly believed…“the proper boring for a double 12 Skeet gun consisted of an improved cylinder right for Station 8 and incomers, and a much tighter tube on the left for the outgoers and all singles except Station 8; such a boring as improved modified or the famous Winchester No. 2 Skeet, or in barrel measurements, around .015”.”
But now feels “the Winchester No. 2 Skeet boring is too tight…” and “improved cylinder or No. 1 boring is both barrels seems about the right dope.”

He went on to criticize the Cutts spreader tube on single barrel guns for skeet, but did not define the tube diameter.
He mentioned a Fox with .011” left and a Model 32 Remington “bored for skeet” lower barrel .012”.

“Improved cylinder is the greatest degree to which a plain barrel should be opened, this being not less than .004”. The finest example of this at present is the Winchester No. 1 Skeet boring, which has about .004 choke at a point 3” from the muzzle. The muzzle section then becomes larger…until finally the barrel at the muzzle is about …0.750” instead of the normal 0.730” of the 12. This is a relieved muzzle or bell muzzle, originated by Ithaca years ago.”

Drew: Thanks so much for the info.... No, it was not more then I wanted. Fact is I found it most interesting to see what was used choke wise.

I wondered give todays "accepted" restriction dimensions on what is a correct perceived choke for skeet. I have to wonder that many if not most all the choke selections above (many of which seem to me to be tight by todays standards of .005 off bore) even though there were some numbers above that indicated otherwise were not driven by the old no shot cup loads. I can remember when I started shooting skeet there were usually 2 or three marked loads to be used at station 8 and were spreaders.

My personnel choice with a 12 ga. gun has always been .002 in and .010 out using todays ammo. Fact is I like a .000 in and have been known to shoot spreaders also.

Interesting stuff.

[Bill Murphy]

AHE.410 skeet gun was marked "Skeet In and Skeet In".

[Dean Romig]

Bill - email me the pictures you have of that gun, 241576 and I'll either post them or keep them on file. You sent me your pictures years ago, right after the auction, but I've misplaced them.





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