One Less

[Gary Laudermilch]

A mature female I caught harassing deer yesterday.

[Steve Huffman]

Their a beautiful animal but ..........

[Dean Romig]

Now there's a good coyote.





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[Dave Tatman]

Agreed, Dean.

They are becoming a really dangerous nuisance here in SC Kentucky.

Dave

[Andrew Sacco]

We have a LOT of coyotes but our biggest problem now is fisher cats. I have two on my property and apparently illegal to kill. They had babies last year I had them on my trail cam.

[Dean Romig]

Andy, what threat do fishers pose?





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[Gary Laudermilch]

Fishers specialize in eating porkys. Of course they also eat other stuff.

[Randy G Roberts]

Yep, my favorite coyote. Nice going Gary.

[Garry L Gordon]

So, did you skin it out and stretch it?

[Joseph Sheerin]

They sure do make good targets. :-)

I normally kill a few each year deer hunting, this year I have not seen one, but hear them almost everynight I am at my place.

Congrats!

[Andrew Sacco]

Andy, what threat do fishers pose?
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They eat birds, and lots of them. I have a friend who is a wildlife biologist for NY State and he said they eat porcupines (from the butt hole side to gain entrance) and grouse/squirrels/mice and rabbits. They are killing machines. There's a video out there somewhere of one chasing a squirrel down in the tree and killing it. One of my employees had her whole chicken coup killed by one fisher (which she finally saw and killed). Took the heads off all the birds. Worst part is she really couldn't figure out how it got in it was a pretty tight enclosure with netting above.

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Fisher-Cats-don-t-fish-but-they-do-hunt-11588390.php

[Tom Pellegrini]

I hunted them the first three years that Mosquito Creek Sportsman Association held their coyote hunt. Don't know if they still have it. Moved from PA nine years ago. The club I hunted with in the Quehanna Wild Area killed four the first year they had a camp of their own which was way back in 1990.

[charlie cleveland]

that's a big ote for sure...charlie

[Randy G Roberts]

A couple that got to close while I was perched in a tree. They run out of steam pretty quick after attack from an air missile.

[Richard Flanders]

That's a juuuuge coyote, as Trump would say. Fisher Cat? I've never even heard of one and figured it was the same as our marten up here but this pic shows that false! Jeeezus, they can be huge, bigger than a wolverine. They'd have to eat a lot of smaller critters to survive. I'd be, uh..hmmm.. uh, "looking for them" too if I had chickens or whatever.

[Dave Noreen]

"The Coyote is a survivor
Reckon he's got to be
Lives in the snow at forty below
or Malibu by the sea"

Ian Tyson

[Dean Romig]

That's a juuuuge coyote, as Trump would say. Fisher Cat? I've never even heard of one and figured it was the same as our marten up here but this pic shows that false! Jeeezus, they can be huge, bigger than a wolverine. They'd have to eat a lot of smaller critters to survive. I'd be, uh..hmmm.. uh, "looking for them" too if I had chickens or whatever.



That is one AWFUL BIG fisher!! I have never even heard of one that big and I've seen and caught a number of them. I caught a big male one time that was 19 lbs but the one in the picture looks like 25-30 lbs. :shock:





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[scott kittredge]

Fishers specialize in eating porkys. Of course they also eat other stuff.

And red squirrels. They are in the weasel family so they don't stay in a small area they have big travel Range

[Tom Flanigan]

Thats a beautiful coyote. I've killed some in Sasketechawan. We have a number of them on the property I hunt in Pawling, NY. We see them fairly often and hear them howling and nipping many nights.

But, I decided not to shoot them. I have a caller but I've never used it. They look too much like a dog to me. I just can't pull the trigger on one anymore. Sure they do take fawns in the spring on the property, but I have never seen evidence of them killing a full grown deer in my area.

I guess its pointless sentimentality on my part, but I don't think I'll ever kill one on the property.

[Tom Flanigan]

Harry, I have no doubt that coyotes take adult deer. I just haven't seen any evidence of it on the property I hunt. We do snowmobiling on the property, so if there was evidence of a deer kill, we probably would have come across it.

I wish they weren't there. I really don't like to see them although I do enjoy the howling and yipping just after dark. It's a wild sound that I like. The deer population on the property is very high so they couldn't make much of a dent and would probably be an asset to the deer herd. There are only three of us who hunt deer and I am the only one who really hunts to any extent.

[Dean Romig]

Coyotes in the area of VT that I hunt take down.. or more descriptively, kill fawns, adult deer and moose calves-of-the-year. I see it every fall/winter in the hunting seasons I am there.
I will shoot one whenever I see one while knowing the scientific facts are that no matter how many coyotes we hunters kill it will not affect their population. Others will quickly fill the vacuum.





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[Tom Flanigan]

Coyotes certainly have their place in nature. We tend to view them as enemies, but they are just trying to survive. They don’t hunt for sport like we do and they don’t take more than they need. In my opinion, they have more of a right to game than we do.

In some areas, they might actually be a benefit to wild populations. I believe they are on the property I hunt although I hate the thought of them taking fawns.

I have nothing against people who kill them. I understand why. I used to shoot them too in Canada. But I’ve changed a bit over the years. I now no longer kill anything I don’t eat and am more in tune with the coyotes and other animals place in nature.

[Stephen Hodges]

They eat birds, and lots of them. I have a friend who is a wildlife biologist for NY State and he said they eat porcupines (from the butt hole side to gain entrance) and grouse/squirrels/mice and rabbits. They are killing machines. There's a video out there somewhere of one chasing a squirrel down in the tree and killing it. One of my employees had her whole chicken coup killed by one fisher (which she finally saw and killed). Took the heads off all the birds. Worst part is she really couldn't figure out how it got in it was a pretty tight enclosure with netting above.

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Fisher-Cats-don-t-fish-but-they-do-hunt-11588390.php

Having been a trapper in NH in my younger days I have trapped many Fishers. Every one I skinned had a few Porky quills imbedded under there skin. They are not "killing machines". They do not kill for pleasure. They are a predator that preys on all sorts of critters in order to survive. Do they eat birds, absolutely, but so do raptors, foxes, coyotes, bobcats, wolves and weasels. As with all predators they they play a crucial role in the environment. Your chicken coop story sounds a lot more like the work of a weasel than a Fisher. If the fisher was not caught in the coop I suspect that he/she was not the culprit, but even so, he/she was just trying to eek out a living. I wish folks would stop putting human traits on predators such as labeling them "killing machines". They just want to eat and raise there young. Look, I am no fan of Coyotes but where they occur they have filled a void that was lacking by another predator. As for your video story of a fisher killing a squirrel, of course they do!!! And there ability to chase one down for lunch has me in awe of there hunting skills.

[Tom Flanigan]

Amen

[Dean Romig]

Having been a trapper in NH in my younger days I have trapped many Fishers. Every one I skinned had a few Porky quills imbedded under there skin. They are not "killing machines". They do not kill for pleasure. They are a predator that preys on all sorts of critters in order to survive. Do they eat birds, absolutely, but so do raptors, foxes, coyotes, bobcats, wolves and weasels. As with all predators they they play a crucial role in the environment. Your chicken coop story sounds a lot more like the work of a weasel than a Fisher. If the fisher was not caught in the coop I suspect that he/she was not the culprit, but even so, he/she was just trying to eek out a living. I wish folks would stop putting human traits on predators such as labeling them "killing machines". They just want to eat and raise there young. Look, I am no fan of Coyotes but where they occur they have filled a void that was lacking by another predator. As for your video story of a fisher killing a squirrel, of course they do!!! And there ability to chase one down for lunch has me in awe of there hunting skills.


Steve, you and I, and a lot of others in the PGCA, have a mutual friend who raised chickens as a food source for he and his wife, along with rabbits for the same purpose. He had built and extremely strong and secure weasel-proof chicken house within the confines of the fenced in (against weasels and such) chicken yard. Something got into the chicken house at night and dragged every one of their chickens out and killed them all, stopping to eat just the more select parts of just a few of them. Somehow the marauder got in through the screened 3" opening under the sides of the vent cap some 5 feet above the floor of the house - an incredibly strong and determined animal and by all counts a "killing machine." Judging by the carcass, it was determined that our mutual friend's wife had Parkerized a large fisher in the act. There's no weasel that strong - but being of the same genus, is more than a little bit likely to simply enjoy killing.





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[Tom Flanigan]

I remember years ago, it was fashionable to label predators as vicious killers that should be destroyed whenever possible. I have in front of me an Outdoor Life article from May 1938. One of the articles is called “Villain’s of the Wood and Field”. “If the coyote and skunk are skilled at annoying outdoorsmen, they are positive geniuses at defeating his efforts to wipe them out.” Also in that magazine is an advertisement for Winchester small bore rifles for killing “pests”. The advertisement features a picture of an owl.

I guess, to this day, vestiges of that sentiment still linger. Much of my hunting is on a large estate that has large populations of predator’s. I plant acres of sorghum every year to provide food and cover for the pheasants, but we still lose quite a few. By far the most effective predators on the property are hawks. It is very common to find dead pheasants with their breast eaten and the rest of the bird remaining. They don’t need to work to get every bite when there is plentiful food.

The foxes and coyotes generally take the whole bird. Predation by these animals is not a factor on the property. New York, as some other states, have hunting seasons on these animals to protect them. I guess these states don’t see these predations as “killing machines”

Hawks and owls are protected, as they should be. I don’t begrudge the hawks on the property their pheasant kills. Unlike myself, they are eating to survive.

[Joseph Sheerin]

I remember years ago, it was fashionable to label predators as vicious killers that should be destroyed whenever possible. I have in front of me an Outdoor Life article from May 1938. One of the articles is called “Villain’s of the Wood and Field”. “If the coyote and skunk are skilled at annoying outdoorsmen, they are positive geniuses at defeating his efforts to wipe them out.” Also in that magazine is an advertisement for Winchester small bore rifles for killing “pests”. The advertisement features a picture of an owl.

I guess, to this day, vestiges of that sentiment still linger. Much of my hunting is on a large estate that has large populations of predator’s. I plant acres of sorghum every year to provide food and cover for the pheasants, but we still lose quite a few. By far the most effective predators on the property are hawks. It is very common to find dead pheasants with their breast eaten and the rest of the bird remaining. They don’t need to work to get every bite when there is plentiful food.

The foxes and coyotes generally take the whole bird. Predation by these animals is not a factor on the property. New York, as some other states, have hunting seasons on these animals to protect them. I guess these states don’t see these predations as “killing machines”

Hawks and owls are protected, as they should be. I don’t begrudge the hawks on the property their pheasant kills. Unlike myself, they are eating to survive.

As someone who has bow hunted deer for a very long time... I will say this about coyotes.... They are so thick where I hunt, that if you do not recover your deer within an hour or so... More than likely they will be on it, before you can get to it. I am very careful about what shots I take, and luckily for me, in the last 10 years I have yet to have a deer go more than 50 yds, and all have died within minutes of being arrowed. I did have to let a buck go over night several years ago, and by the time I recovered it at first light next morning, there wasn't much left of it other than the head..... The can wipe out a deer fairly quick.

I shoot every coyote I see while deer hunting. I know I don't even begin to put a dent in their numbers. Also, large coyote populations can be very hard on fawns in the spring. As for pheasants, even with a large population of coyotes, I would think they have very limited success on killing many of those, or any other game bird for that matter. Hawks are much better at that, and they are protected.

[Tom Flanigan]

Joe, I hunt deer also and with the bow. I have for the last 63 years. I don’t take a deer very late in the evening any more. Instead of staying in until dark like I used to, I now stop hunting when I no longer have enough light left to follow up a shot. I do it for two reasons, one is that a deer left overnight in Indian Summer weather will spoil and second, coyotes will certainly find it and reduce the carcass to skin and bones very quickly.

I don’t take a deer out of the woods. I carefully bone it out in the woods and take it back to my refrigerator (for aging) in pieces. Invariably, the next day the parts of the carcass I left behind are pretty much cleaned up.

Up in Saskatchewan some years ago, we had a surge in the coyote population that endangered the pronghorns in the southern portion of the province. If I remember correctly, the pronghorn season was closed in some areas. The coyotes took an inordinate number of fawns. Prior to the coyote surge, non-residents were not allowed to remove pelts from the province. During the surge residents and non-residents both were encouraged to kill them whenever possible and the ban on taking pelts out of the province was rescinded.

Given favorable conditions predator populations can get out of control in certain areas at times. But their numbers are generally managed by nature over a period of time. Predator populations are highest where there is an abundance of food. Once the food diminishes, they move on. The problem is that they sometimes compete with humans for the same resource and for this they are often vilified.

But I’ll go back to a statement that I made in an earlier post. Since they kill for survival, I believe they have more of a right to game than we do. I firmly believe that, knowing that sometimes it is necessary to kill them in areas where the population exceeds the carrying capacity of the land. It provides a more immediate response than nature.

[Dean Romig]

We are amazed that our bird dogs can pick up the scent of a pheasant, grouse, quail or woodcock at twenty or thirty yards or even more. But the nose of a predator is even keener because he survives by his sense of smell. They hunt at night when the ground roosting birds are at their most vulnerable and the predators know this. They can sneak in soundlessly and kill them in their sleep. I am really surprised any of these ground roosting species are even as plentiful as they are today and I’m not surprised in the least by the “kill em on sight” of the old time plantation owners and managers.





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[Bob Jurewicz]

Here is a picture of the 52 lb. coyote Harry shot that he mentioned on the previos page.

[Dean Romig]

I’ve read of coyotes taken in New England in the low 70’s in weight.





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[Harold Lee Pickens]

Those big northern coyotes supposedly have wolf genes from cross breeding now.

[Dean Romig]

That has been scientifically proven true.





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[Tom Flanigan]

I don’t believe that coyotes or any other predator is much of a threat to WILD populations of birds that have feed and good cover. Food and cover is the key. Although predators can do damage to populations in areas with marginal or poor feed and cover.

We’ve learned a lot and have become more enlightened on the ways of nature, and the value of each species to ecosystems, since the days of old time plantation owners and managers. I have no doubt that modern plantation managers kill foxes and coyotes on sight to protect their revenue producing pen birds that aren’t attuned to living in the wild.

We all have to make our choices based on varying criteria and our own values, whatever they may be. I have made mine not to shoot predators or anything I won’t eat.

[Dean Romig]

I don’t believe that coyotes or any other predator is much of a threat to WILD populations of birds that have feed and good cover. Food and cover is the key. Although predators can do damage to populations in areas with marginal or poor feed and cover.


Really?

How about wild populations of ruffed grouse in the Northeast like PA, NY and Northern New England who’s numbers are severely depleted in many localities by such factors as WNV? I think your arguement is misguided and doesn’t take into account localized problems.





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[Dean Romig]

I don’t believe that coyotes or any other predator is much of a threat to WILD populations of birds that have feed and good cover. Food and cover is the key. Although predators can do damage to populations in areas with marginal or poor feed and cover.

We’ve learned a lot and have become more enlightened on the ways of nature, and the value of each species to ecosystems, since the days of old time plantation owners and managers. I have no doubt that modern plantation managers kill foxes and coyotes on sight to protect their revenue producing pen birds that aren’t attuned to living in the wild.

We all have to make our choices based on varying criteria and our own values, whatever they may be. I have made mine not to shoot predators or anything I won’t eat.


And I continue to make my choices in individual situations as they occur.





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[Tom Flanigan]

Dean, I think you misunderstand what I was trying to convey, to wit, all wildlife, predators included, have an important role to play in the ecosystem. Coyotes are no exception.

I did not criticize any legal hunting activity. Further, I would never say individuals should not shoot coyotes or other predators. I stated MY perspective which counts only for me regardless whether others agree or disagree. I don’t preach to anyone and would never have the gall and presumption to say what others should do. I stand by my statement, in an earlier post, “we all have to make our choices based on varying criteria and our own values, whatever they may be”.

Also, my comment on feed and cover is not “misguided” I was obviously speaking in general since no one can accurately speak to the myriad of other local and regional reasons game population diminish. This is outside the scope of my comment.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with you Tom, in that we all have to make our choices based on the information we have but we can’t limit that information to just “food and cover” and we need to take in as many variables as we can find and apply them to our model and see if they have an effect. In the case of disease, we simply ignore such an important influence. I guess what I’m saying is that if a species could use a little help from us I believe it is our duty to help while staying within the law.





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[Harold Lee Pickens]

Living in the country, I fear coyote predation on my dogs--I saw them gang up on my best friends 100 lb Lab. Bob cats probably a bigger predator on grouse than coyote. Yeserday i took a 4 hour hike thru strip pit country--carried a 22mag, specifcally for coyote. This one with a 20 ga slug gun.

[scott kittredge]

Here in NH. back before the coyote started it's "come back" in the early 80's we had plenty of grouse, rabbits, and woodchucks and NO COYOTE. you could hunt grouse with out a dog just by walking and on deer drives you would carry bird shot to shoot the ones you ran into while walking. I haven't shot a grouse in over 25 years in the southern part of our state, the woodchucks I use to shoot with my bow around populated areas are all but gone. snow shoe rabbits the same and the coyote population is very high! . peoples dogs and cats are getting killed by the, There are people getting attacked by the sick ones too. I shoot all I can when I see them. I all so believe they have something to do with the ticks being spread. When I was a kid in the late 60's and early 70's we had little or no ticks. I do a lot of taxidermy work and when I skin one out ,they are full of ticks and they travel a lot to spread them around ??? (IMHO)
scott

[Dean Romig]

Right Scott and I hardly ever see a red fox anymore... coyotes eat them too. The foxes that survive are the gray foxes that are able to climb trees.





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[Phillip Carr]

I have always said if there was ever a nuclear Holocaust there would only be two creatures that would survive. Cockroaches and Coyotes, and within 2 years there would only be the Coyotes as they will have eaten all of the roaches.
When Parker Bros. Started making their first shotguns there were no Coyotes in the Eastern states.
The coyote has evolved and has expanded his range and now thrives in 49 of the 50 states. He is not the coyote he was 100 years ago. DNA supports this fact.
4 to 500,000 Coyotes are killed each year which should give us an idea of just how many there really are.
Coyotes are very adaptable. They literally will eat anything. Don’t fool yourself that they don’t have an impact on your deer, Turkey and upland bird population. The millions of Coyotes in United States are not just eating road kill and the weak.
Just my 2 cents, but Coyotes have evolved and expanded their range to a point that they have no less impact than the flying carp, snakes, and iguanas that have invaded different parts of our country.
Currently the coyote has very few natural predators.They have learned to adapt and survive even it large city’s.
Unfortunately any thought that nature has a way of balancing things out may not apply to the coyote in a way you would hope for. I have not heard of large scale mass die off of Coyotes due to starvation or disease.
I have personally read about and observed the Pronghorn population south of Tucson near the community of Sonoita suffer due to the coyote praying on the newborns. They have suffered a zero percent survival rate for years.
Game and Fish has transplanted Pronghorn back into this area and has even resorted to aerial gunning killing literally 100’s of Coyotes in a few days. This has helped but the herds continue to suffer.
I agree for the most part that we should eat the game we shoot, but the coyote is not game and although they have their place it’s not everywhere and in unchecked numbers.
As a side note. Most of the Coyotes we trap or call in are skinned.

[Dean Romig]

I agree 100% Phil. They are vermin and should be treated as such.

I wish we could unleash the coyotes upon the wild boar and feral pig populations. What beautiful mayhem that would be.





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[scott kittredge]

I agree 100% Phil. They are vermin and should be treated as such.

I wish we could unleash the coyotes upon the wild boar and feral pig populations. What beautiful mayhem that would be.





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Dean'
Remember
wild pigs are doing what wild pigs are suppose to do.

[Dean Romig]

:biglaugh:






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[Garry L Gordon]

Is the term vermin like "weed" (a plant out of place)? There are many times I feel like humans are the vermin.

[Stan Hoover]

I'm a little too young to remember the days when bounty's were paid for shooting hawks and fox pelts brought good money. These were the days before we had coyotes in Pa.
From what I understand, those were the days of bountiful small game, however, modern farming has also had an affect on small game.

Just my opinion, coyotes are hard on deer, woodchucks, and small game, that is why I will shoot them every chance I have.
I also believe if we were allowed to keep the number of hawks in check, our small game would be better off, but not to the level it once may have been. I know this may seem like swearing to some, but to be real honest, we have way too many hawks, I remember 30 years back, it was great to see a red tail hawk, but anymore, we have way too many.

Only my opinions,
Stan Hoover

[Dean Romig]

Is the term vermin like "weed" (a plant out of place)? There are many times I feel like humans are the vermin.



ver·min
/ˈvərmən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
Wild animals that are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or that carry disease, e.g., rodents.
parasitic worms or insects.
"his clothes are infested with vermin"

People perceived as despicable and as causing problems for the rest of society.
"the vermin who ransacked her house"




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[Joseph Sheerin]

Joe, I hunt deer also and with the bow. I have for the last 63 years. I don’t take a deer very late in the evening any more. Instead of staying in until dark like I used to, I now stop hunting when I no longer have enough light left to follow up a shot. I do it for two reasons, one is that a deer left overnight in Indian Summer weather will spoil and second, coyotes will certainly find it and reduce the carcass to skin and bones very quickly.

I don’t take a deer out of the woods. I carefully bone it out in the woods and take it back to my refrigerator (for aging) in pieces. Invariably, the next day the parts of the carcass I left behind are pretty much cleaned up.



Alas, given my age and eye sight... I rarely stay in the stand until end of shooting light these days. I am VERY careful about any archery shot I take, and if I do not think the shot will lead to a quick recovery, it's a hard pass. The good news in this, is that it's been over 10 years since I wasn't able to recover a deer within an hour of the shot, with most in a matter of minutes as I have seen them expire within 50 yds of me. So, the coyotes have had to wait until I bone out and take the meat I want from the animals. I don't do it where they lay, but bring them up to my cabin where I have a gambrel hanging in the tree which makes the job easy. All the carcass I don't want, gets thrown into a ice fishing sled, and discarded on my place far away from my cabin where the coyotes can enjoy it in peace(Minus the crows and grinners).

As for the coyotes.... We have an over abundance of them in our area. Used to see quite a few red foxes, but that's been years now. I don't hardly put a dent in their numbers, but figure taking them out isn't hurting anything.

I will say this, a coyote is the one animal left in the woods, that no other animal seems to have any interest in eating. And, they do make good targets. :-)

[Ken Descovich]

I have a persistent coyote that has been tracking the deer on my property I cant wait till I can connect with the coyote.

[Garry L Gordon]

Sorry. My question was rhetorical ((of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.), but Dean's response makes it still a good question to ask.

Thanks, Dean.

ver·min
/ˈvərmən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
Wild animals that are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or that carry disease, e.g., rodents.
parasitic worms or insects.
"his clothes are infested with vermin"

People perceived as despicable and as causing problems for the rest of society.
"the vermin who ransacked her house"




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[scott kittredge]

I will say this, a coyote is the one animal left in the woods, that no other animal seems to have any interest in eating. And, they do make good targets. :-)[/QUOTE]

funny you posted that, I have put coyote bodies in the woods after I take the hides off of them and nothing eats them ,except maggots, they end up rotting there
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[Garry L Gordon]

With perfect timing, this article from Shooting Sportsman just popped up in my email. It's interesting that humans are the cause of this invasive species, and yet, our tendency is to blame the ferrel hogs. In Missouri our Conservation Dept. has found that hunting hogs actually allows them to spread because taking one hog from a "sounder" disperses the remaining hogs. So, you cannot hunt them on public land in Missouri, but can on private. These are tough issues, mostly because we humans can't sort them out.

https://shootingsportsman.com/invasion-of-the-hogs/?utm_campaign=Shooting%20Sportsman%20Insider&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=108522668&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9g-DTB3ctQeWK8GcI36tj6Qey8o8fFNh53ojdzURb4KI5ypXEop2m uJieVYe_NzlZugGkvXZtQ0Re1aPPnVj8ZZ3HX5Q&utm_content=108522668&utm_source=hs_email

[charlie cleveland]

a buzzard wont eat a coyote or a dog most of the time...charlie

[Joseph Sheerin]

a buzzard wont eat a coyote or a dog most of the time...charlie

Evidently, neither will a grinner....

[Dean Romig]

funny you posted that, I have put coyote bodies in the woods after I take the hides off of them and nothing eats them ,except maggots, they end up rotting there
.


I gut-shot a coyote while deer hunting about twenty years ago. He ran off like his tail was on fire. I knew he’d die of the wound eventually. Two days later I found his skeletal remains with just his intestines, head and his tail. Everything else had been eaten by his pack mates as evidenced by their tracks in the snow.






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[Brett Hoop]

With perfect timing, this article from Shooting Sportsman just popped up in my email. It's interesting that humans are the cause of this invasive species, and yet, our tendency is to blame the ferrel hogs. In Missouri our Conservation Dept. has found that hunting hogs actually allows them to spread because taking one hog from a "sounder" disperses the remaining hogs. So, you cannot hunt them on public land in Missouri, but can on private. These are tough issues, mostly because we humans can't sort them out.

https://shootingsportsman.com/invasion-of-the-hogs/?utm_campaign=Shooting%20Sportsman%20Insider&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=108522668&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9g-DTB3ctQeWK8GcI36tj6Qey8o8fFNh53ojdzURb4KI5ypXEop2m uJieVYe_NzlZugGkvXZtQ0Re1aPPnVj8ZZ3HX5Q&utm_content=108522668&utm_source=hs_email

Those hogs will be dealt with promptly should they ever slow down Warren's train set!

[Daryl Corona]

Speaking of predation.... This just in from the SD game commission.








GFP Commission Amends Nest Predator Bounty Program Dates for 2021-2022

PIERRE, S.D. - At their January meeting, the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks (GFP) Commission amended a resolution to the Nest Predator Bounty Program for this year and next. The resolution indicates that the 2021 program will include a payment of $10/predator and a cap of $500,000. The amendment specifically modifies the dates of when the program will start and end in which the GFP Commission unanimously agreed to run the program from March 15 through July 1.

“The primary goal of the program is to enhance nest success for pheasants and ducks at localized levels by removing primary nest predators, like raccoons, striped skunks, opossums, red fox and badgers from the landscape,” said interim department secretary Kevin Robling. “Furthermore, this program is designed to increase youth and family participation in understanding and experiencing the tradition of trapping while enhancing our strong outdoor heritage.”

Last year, 16 percent of participants were 17 years-old or younger. These families and youth participating in the program made lasting memories while making a difference for managing wildlife in South Dakota. To encourage even greater participation in 2021, GFP will provide a weekly giveaway for all youth (17 years-old and younger) that participate in the program. The giveaway will consist of a GFP-sponsored trapping package that includes three live traps, knife, and the National Trappers Association Trapping Handbook.

“Each year, approximately 75 percent of duck and pheasant nests have been lost to predation in South Dakota. Intensive and ongoing predator removal efforts on lands containing quality habitat are important for increasing nest success at a localized level and present an excellent opportunity for an outdoor experience the entire family can enjoy,” stated GFP Commissioner Bob Whitmyre.

GFP will also enhance the ETHICS SD program to reach new audiences across South Dakota. ETHICS SD is a partnership between trapping organizations, GFP and 4H where youth learn trapping skills, fur handling techniques, and elements of wildlife management. The program has doubled in size reaching 110 new students in 11 counties in 2020.

“The key to ensuring our outdoor trapping traditions remain strong for future generations is educating and encouraging youth to participate in wildlife management,” said Robling. “We are excited to hear about the lasting memories these families make as they take to the field.”

The GFP Commission is allowing public comment on the amended program changes for the next 30 days and will vote on it at their March 4-5, 2021, meeting. To hear the discussion on this proposal, audio is available through South Dakota Public Broadcasting and on the GFP website under the meeting archive. Individuals can comment on this proposal by visiting gfp.sd.gov/forms/positions. Comments can also be mailed to 523 E. Capitol Ave., Pierre, SD 57501. To be included in the public record and to be considered by the Commission, comments must include a full name and city of residence and meet the submission deadline of 72 hours before the public hearing (not including the day of the public hearing).

Individuals are encouraged to share their trapping and outdoor memories by using #SDintheField on social media.

GFP has operated the Nest Predator Bounty Program for the past two years (2019 and 2020) with different program details/parameters (i.e. amount paid per predator, duration of program, license requirements, etc.) each year. For more details, visit https://gfp.sd.gov/bounty-program/.



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[Gary Laudermilch]

Racoons are a big problem. We are overrun with them primarily because nobody is trapping and coon dog guys are fewer. It is tough to stimulate interest when fur prices are so low. Most fur buyers will not even buy a coon unless it is a spectacular example. A recent fur auction had coons average $1.83.

This past summer my sister in law was working in the garage with the door open. A coon entered and attacked her inflicting wounds to her lower leg before she managed to hit it on the head with a hammer. Tested positive for rabies and she had to get the shot routine along with stitches. The results of runaway wildlife populations.

[Phillip Carr]

Just some information concerning scavengers not eating Coyotes. I am guessing that it probably depends what part of the country you live in. My experience here in AZ is they are eaten just as readily as a deer or rabbit.
I spoke to my brother this evening as he traps Coyotes for a number of ranchers. I asked what his experience was as far as coyote carcass’s. It is not unusual for him to catch 5 or 6 in a week. He stated that most Coyotes are reduced to bones in 2 days.
He added you would think that nothing would eat a skunk but they are cleaned up just a quickly. He added that ravens seem to particularly like Coyotes.
I am guessing that here in AZ we don’t have the abundance of deer that other states have and so our scavengers take what is available...

[Gary Laudermilch]

New snow last night and a new set of coyote tracks close to the house. Rifle and shells are at the ready by the door. If he shows himself and gives me 30 seconds to get outside he is in trouble.

[charlie cleveland]

phil maybe we need to trade you a few buzzards for some of them ravens...charlie

[Dave Noreen]

92624

92625

92626

Not the ads we see today.

[Bruce Hering]

My contribution to good coyote:

https://i.imgur.com/Y70gycn.jpg

This one was crossing the dam on our lake. Amazing what a .270 with the right bullet can do at 110 yards.

We have way too many here in Southernmost IL. Our fur never gets good so no one really wants to spend the time trapping. Its basically shoot on site and yea, we use electronic callers.

They destroy deer populations and yes, they will kill adult deer, eat your small dogs and cats and can be a bit aggressive to humans and will kill larger dogs if in a pack of three or more.

Blew one off one of my setters several years ago. Dog came running back to me whining but did not see me and past me. Yote was about 15 yards behind dog. Yote met with a load of 8's to the head at 5 yards.

Done deal.

[Richard Flanders]

The Michigan bounty on red fox was $5 for a male, $15 for a female. Bounty was ended in 1963. The pheasant population plummeted from there on.

[Tom Flanigan]

The deer coyote / interactions on the property I hunt is a mystery to me. I know the coyotes take fawns and probably adult deer, although I have never seen evidence of this on the property. Very often you can hear a coyote or two howling and yipping just after dark. But somehow the deer don’t seem to mind.

The property has many large fields, some of which have been planted with Timothy and some I plant in sorghum annually. Deer are out feeding in the Timothy and sorghum fields almost every night without fail and without regard to the coyotes.

The deer carcasses I leave in the woods after I bone them out are invariably gone the next day. Fresh snow reveals many coyote tracks. There is a healthy population of them using the property, yet the deer seem to co-exist without much concern. I would think the deer would be somewhat wary of feeding in open fields yet they are always there. I don’t know how to explain it.

[Tom Flanigan]

Another note.....one thing that always bothers deer in the fields is airplanes taking off from our airstrip. I would think that they would be used to the planes but they always run into the woods when someone is taking off. I have a favorite Timothy field that I hunt most evenings that is about 200 yards from the airstrip with a short secton of woods seperating them. When the deer leave, they generally don't come back out that evening.

I tell the guys to get their flying in before my evening hunting but it doesn't do any good. They like to mess with me and once they took a bunch of pumpkins up and dumped them out over my field. They sounded like small bombs when they hit. Other times they buzz my treestand. I no longer say anything. But I get even in other ways.

[Stephen Hodges]

Speaking of predation.... This just in from the SD game commission.








GFP Commission Amends Nest Predator Bounty Program Dates for 2021-2022

PIERRE, S.D. - At their January meeting, the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks (GFP) Commission amended a resolution to the Nest Predator Bounty Program for this year and next. The resolution indicates that the 2021 program will include a payment of $10/predator and a cap of $500,000. The amendment specifically modifies the dates of when the program will start and end in which the GFP Commission unanimously agreed to run the program from March 15 through July 1.

“The primary goal of the program is to enhance nest success for pheasants and ducks at localized levels by removing primary nest predators, like raccoons, striped skunks, opossums, red fox and badgers from the landscape,” said interim department secretary Kevin Robling. “Furthermore, this program is designed to increase youth and family participation in understanding and experiencing the tradition of trapping while enhancing our strong outdoor heritage.”

Last year, 16 percent of participants were 17 years-old or younger. These families and youth participating in the program made lasting memories while making a difference for managing wildlife in South Dakota. To encourage even greater participation in 2021, GFP will provide a weekly giveaway for all youth (17 years-old and younger) that participate in the program. The giveaway will consist of a GFP-sponsored trapping package that includes three live traps, knife, and the National Trappers Association Trapping Handbook.

“Each year, approximately 75 percent of duck and pheasant nests have been lost to predation in South Dakota. Intensive and ongoing predator removal efforts on lands containing quality habitat are important for increasing nest success at a localized level and present an excellent opportunity for an outdoor experience the entire family can enjoy,” stated GFP Commissioner Bob Whitmyre.

GFP will also enhance the ETHICS SD program to reach new audiences across South Dakota. ETHICS SD is a partnership between trapping organizations, GFP and 4H where youth learn trapping skills, fur handling techniques, and elements of wildlife management. The program has doubled in size reaching 110 new students in 11 counties in 2020.

“The key to ensuring our outdoor trapping traditions remain strong for future generations is educating and encouraging youth to participate in wildlife management,” said Robling. “We are excited to hear about the lasting memories these families make as they take to the field.”

The GFP Commission is allowing public comment on the amended program changes for the next 30 days and will vote on it at their March 4-5, 2021, meeting. To hear the discussion on this proposal, audio is available through South Dakota Public Broadcasting and on the GFP website under the meeting archive. Individuals can comment on this proposal by visiting gfp.sd.gov/forms/positions. Comments can also be mailed to 523 E. Capitol Ave., Pierre, SD 57501. To be included in the public record and to be considered by the Commission, comments must include a full name and city of residence and meet the submission deadline of 72 hours before the public hearing (not including the day of the public hearing).

Individuals are encouraged to share their trapping and outdoor memories by using #SDintheField on social media.

GFP has operated the Nest Predator Bounty Program for the past two years (2019 and 2020) with different program details/parameters (i.e. amount paid per predator, duration of program, license requirements, etc.) each year. For more details, visit https://gfp.sd.gov/bounty-program/.



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What Pheasants Forever thinks of this effort:
https://www.pheasantsforever.org/Habitat/Pheasant-Facts/Effects-of-Predators.aspx

[Dean Romig]

Deer can’t stop living just because there are predators around. They are blessed with being dumb animals and likely don’t react at all unless they see or smell one. Neither are deer afraid of gunshots. To them there is no immediate danger in a gunshot and they can’t associate it with the possibility that there might be a bullet around someplace. Deer and coyotes coexist because there is rarely an immediate danger just because there are coyotes around.





.

[Tom Flanigan]

Deer are very in tune with what occurs in their habitat. They can pattern hunters and probably predators. Hunt from a particular stand too many times and they will avoid the area. I’ve experienced it many times years ago before I knew better. It’s why I never overhunt a stand and have multiple stands that I can use. When hunting the fields, I never leave if there are deer still feeding. My goal is not to spook them and make them aware I am in the area. Sometimes I have to sit till well after dark before I leave a field if the deer are still out. If you spook them a few times from a field they most likely will avoid it.

As far as gunshots, some run when they hear them, others don’t. A shot that is very close usually scares them. However, this year, while bow hunting, I was watching a three and a half year old buck with five does in the field with him. He had a wide nine point rack and was feeding his way toward me. I decided to take him if he came within thirty yards.

There is a horse farm on the southern side of the property about a quarter of a mile away. Someone decided to shoot a pistol. At the first shot, all heads went up. At the second shot, the buck bolted for the woods and the does followed him. Gunshots usually do scare deer, depending on the distance, although I was puzzled that they still bolted given the remoteness of the shots.

[Tom Flanigan]

I think Steve’s post on what Pheasant’s Forever thinks of predator elimination is telling. It’s something I’ve always believed, if the birds have food and cover, baring regional and local diseases, they will do fine despite predators. It certainly holds true on the property I hunt.

Quotes from the Pheasants Forever article…

“Bottom line: Through the addition and management of habitat, we not only decrease the impact predators have on existing nests, but also increase the number of nests and population size in the area. This management comes at a fraction of the cost of other predator reduction methods.”

“Predators will continue to eat pheasants and their nests, but weather and habitat conditions will drive population fluctuations.”

Habitat and feed is key in addition to weather conditions. The main reason for the loss of ruffed grouse in parts of the Northeast is the decline of habitat. Grouse need young forests and brushy areas to survive. Making matters worse, the mosquito borne West Nile Disease has had an impact as a one two punch on the diminishing grouse populations.

[Tom Flanigan]

Right Scott and I hardly ever see a red fox anymore... coyotes eat them too. The foxes that survive are the gray foxes that are able to climb trees.





.

For me Dean, thats an absolutely horrible picture. It's hard to look at. I hate that coyotes take dogs.

[Dean Romig]

Coyotes are hunter-scavengers and will eat anything and everything they can get ahold of.

I have shot over and bedide deer on SC ranges while they continued to eat unconcernedly. Sure, being a range where shooting is the norm they had to get used to it (to just live) because the shooting never presented a threat to them. They don’t have the power of thought or reason.





.

[John Dallas]

The deer that hang around my back yard in a suburb of Detroit, where no hunting is allowed, tolerate people well. Not so in northern Mich where hunting is OK. The least lttle sound or movement gets them going

[Tom Flanigan]

My contribution to good coyote:

https://i.imgur.com/Y70gycn.jpg

This one was crossing the dam on our lake. Amazing what a .270 with the right bullet can do at 110 yards.

We have way too many here in Southernmost IL. Our fur never gets good so no one really wants to spend the time trapping. Its basically shoot on site and yea, we use electronic callers.

They destroy deer populations and yes, they will kill adult deer, eat your small dogs and cats and can be a bit aggressive to humans and will kill larger dogs if in a pack of three or more.

Blew one off one of my setters several years ago. Dog came running back to me whining but did not see me and past me. Yote was about 15 yards behind dog. Yote met with a load of 8's to the head at 5 yards.

Done deal.

When I shot them in Saskatchewan I used a .270 with 130 grain bullets, my moose load. It really chews them up similar to your coyote. I used the 130 grain bullet because it shot best from my pre-64 model 70. Moose die rather easily and that 130 grain bullet was all I needed. They don't go far after being hit.

[Larry Stauch]

News Flash: The state of Utah still has a bounty on coyotes of $50 a head, $50!

https://wildlife.utah.gov/predator-control-program.html

When I was in college in the late 70s in Idaho I made extra money shooting them at $35 each, just dead, sold to the skinners.

When people say coyotes will eat anything, I've seen them eating honey dew melons in fields in central California.

Great thread and interesting getting people's take on things.

[charlie cleveland]

they use to eat my dads watermelons up here in Mississippi....they would even roll the melons out of the patch into the woods sometimes it they would roll them 50 foot or fauther....unreal...charlie

[Tom Flanigan]

Charlie, that’s interesting that the coyotes rolled the melons. I’ve never heard of that before. In Saskatchewan, I’ve seen the damage caused by bears rolling on the oats in the fields. It made those areas a loss since you can’t combine oats that have been flattened. If they just ate the oats and didn’t roll on them the damage they caused would be much less. The interesting thing is that they never bothered the canola fields. Just the oat fields.

I had a farmer friend up there, called Snuffy, who just grew oats. He claimed that the bears did a lot of damage to his oats just before harvest and used to carry an ancient Winchester Model 94 on his tractor. He shot all he could that were within range and dragged them out of the fields and dumped them into the woods. When he heard that I had arrived in the small town, he would call my French Canadian friend Lawrence and tell him to send me over to shoot the bears.

I shot a total of only four over a couple of years before I decided not to shoot them anymore except for the somewhat rare cinnamon color phase. I got a cinnamon and never shot another bear. To me, it was just like shooting a big racoon, albeit with an incredible nose. I was watching a big boar bear in the fields and he was about 600 yards away but feeding toward my stand. I decided to take him when he got to the 200 yard range. I felt a momentary slight breeze on the back of my exposed neck. I thought no big deal, the bear was too far away to pick up my scent. I was wrong. In about a half minute his head went up into the air and he bolted into the woods.

The oat farmers up there don’t mind the coyotes. But bears are vermin to them.

[Gary Laudermilch]

Bears sure raise hell with corn fields around here. They wait for the corn to get in milk stage and then they can destroy a field in short order. Fields that border the woods are particularly venerable.

[Dean Romig]

Pertaining to bears in the corn...



.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Dean, they shoot print that in the Parker Pages.

[Dean Romig]

Maybe Harold.... We’ll see.





.

[Bruce Hering]

When I shot them in Saskatchewan I used a .270 with 130 grain bullets, my moose load. It really chews them up similar to your coyote. I used the 130 grain bullet because it shot best from my pre-64 model 70. Moose die rather easily and that 130 grain bullet was all I needed. They don't go far after being hit.

Tom:

Sorry I missed this. My load is a box load by Hornady 140 gr, Boat Tail Spire Point Interlock bullet. It has taken a bunch of coyotes and deer. Most all dead right there out of a New made Browning 1885 High wall.

[Stan Hillis]

I will offer another perspective, and not in the least to try to persuade those of a different opinion. I am a row crop farmer, have been my whole adult life. i grow corn, cotton, peanuts and occasionally soybeans. I do this to make a living, not for entertainment or sport. I own a good deal of the land I farm, but lease many other farms. The deer population in this part of GA is unbelievable to those who have never seen deer per acre this high. Much of the reason it is so high is the high quality food they have ......... my crops, and those of my neighbors.

I hunted deer as a sport for many years, but quit about 20 years ago. The numbers were such that it was not hunting anymore, but just shooting. Near the end it gave me as much pleasure as stepping on a cockroach. I ate what I killed, and enjoyed it, but no longer do (hunt for sport or eat them). Why? The sheer numbers of them have turned me against them in almost every way. They destroy many, many acres of crops of mine every year, costing me tens of thousands of dollars in income. Replanting is not an option. They will eat the replanted crop as fast, or faster, than the first. They are NOT a game animal anymore, IMO, but a nuisance. Vermin. No different from a rat that slips into the barn and eats the cow's feed. No different.

I can, and do, obtain depredation permits to kill them while they are about the business of eating my crops, during the growing season. I can't stop them all. But, I do my best. Coyotes do a better job of killing them than I ever can. A turkey hunter here found an occupied coyote den one spring and put a trail camera on it. The female 'yote brought 8 fawns in to her young to feed them that one spring. So ..........coyotes are my allies, and are protected on any land I have control over. Deer eat my crops and cost me thousands upon thousands every year, coyotes eat deer, so....... coyotes are my "friends".

I don't expect those of you who think you are doing the world a service by killing coyotes to understand. You shouldn't be expected to. You perceive that they are doing you a disservice by killing the deer you love to hunt. I don't expect a cattleman to change his mind either. I have seen, firsthand, what coyotes do to newborn calves. I'm just offering a different perspective. One man's meat is another man's poison.

SRH

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Stan, that is a whole new perspective on coyotes. Certainly could not argue against that.

[Richard Flanders]

That is indeed a very interesting perspective that I have not heard before and, having been raised in farm country, much appreciate. Somehow, though, I just cannot imagine having too much fresh venison in my freezer! I think we should all show up en masse at Stans at some point, each of us pulling a small trailer or a pickup with a freezer and small Honda generator and have a cleansing deer drive.... all in the name of taking stress off Stan and his crops, of course! :p

[Tom Flanigan]

Stan, I can certainly appreciate your perspective. The oat farmers I know in Canada have the same perspective on the bears. Also, on the property I hunt in NY, corn used to be grown for silage for the cattle. The deer did tremendous damage so we got crop damage permits from the NY DEC to use in September. The DEC came out and viewed the damage then took a rough estimate of the deer per acre on the property (I don't know how they did it). We got permits for the excess.

I'd go out evenings and kill four or five from the fields and then call the game warden to pick them up at the barn. One day I asked him what he was doing with the carcasses. He told me that they take them to a dump. I never turned in another deer after that. I shot them but I butchered them all and gave most of the meat away. It was a real chore processing the number of deer we were shooting but I just couldn't see them going to waste.

I tested a lot of different calibers and bullets back in those days from the .222 to 30-06. In the end, my favorite caliber for field shooting was the .243 with 100 grain bullets. I use mostly a .270 with 130 grain bullet now for everything from deer to moose. The .243 is too light for game larger than a deer or bear.

We had very few coyotes back then unlike now. We have fewer deer on the property than we did years back, but they average bigger and are probably better conditioned. Coyotes might be the reason why. I hate the thought of them killing deer but they are probably beneficial to our herd.

[scott kittredge]

I will offer another perspective, and not in the least to try to persuade those of a different opinion. I am a row crop farmer, have been my whole adult life. i grow corn, cotton, peanuts and occasionally soybeans. I do this to make a living, not for entertainment or sport. I own a good deal of the land I farm, but lease many other farms. The deer population in this part of GA is unbelievable to those who have never seen deer per acre this high. Much of the reason it is so high is the high quality food they have ......... my crops, and those of my neighbors.

I hunted deer as a sport for many years, but quit about 20 years ago. The numbers were such that it was not hunting anymore, but just shooting. Near the end it gave me as much pleasure as stepping on a cockroach. I ate what I killed, and enjoyed it, but no longer do (hunt for sport or eat them). Why? The sheer numbers of them have turned me against them in almost every way. They destroy many, many acres of crops of mine every year, costing me tens of thousands of dollars in income. Replanting is not an option. They will eat the replanted crop as fast, or faster, than the first. They are NOT a game animal anymore, IMO, but a nuisance. Vermin. No different from a rat that slips into the barn and eats the cow's feed. No different.

I can, and do, obtain depredation permits to kill them while they are about the business of eating my crops, during the growing season. I can't stop them all. But, I do my best. Coyotes do a better job of killing them than I ever can. A turkey hunter here found an occupied coyote den one spring and put a trail camera on it. The female 'yote brought 8 fawns in to her young to feed them that one spring. So ..........coyotes are my allies, and are protected on any land I have control over. Deer eat my crops and cost me thousands upon thousands every year, coyotes eat deer, so....... coyotes are my "friends".

I don't expect those of you who think you are doing the world a service by killing coyotes to understand. You shouldn't be expected to. You perceive that they are doing you a disservice by killing the deer you love to hunt. I don't expect a cattleman to change his mind either. I have seen, firsthand, what coyotes do to newborn calves. I'm just offering a different perspective. One man's meat is another man's poison.

SRH

I understand about the loss of income, Is the land posted ? Here in NH the F&G dept. wont give out permits to thin out the deer if the land is posted. They want the hunters to help control the deer problem, up here xmas tree farms take a pounding when bucks rub up the trees. You should have hunters come in to help thin out the heard.
scott

[Stan Hillis]

Tom, we are allowed to shoot them at night, under permit, because that is the most efficient way to cull. I use a .300 Blackout on an AR platform with an ATN thermal scope. Head and neck shots only. Here is a short video filmed through one of our scopes showing the neck shot efficiency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmuM5trgpL8&t=96s

Scott, the land is not posted, per se. In GA private land does not have to posted with "No Trespassing" or "No Hunting" signs to be considered posted. It is private land and it is understood that it is private unless one has written permission, on their person, to be there. I have hunters working at the problem. Problem is, very few will go to the effort to hunt if they can't have a chance at killing a big set of antlers. And, you don't kill old bucks by shooting the first doe that steps out.

It's a very big problem. The density per acre here is so high that I have actually let land go, and stopped leasing it to farm, because I'd lose $$$ on it every year due to deer predation. This may be hard to understand, but having a problem with feral hogs too, I'd take the hogs over the deer any day, if I could get rid of one or the other. I can put a pack of hog dogs on the sounder of hogs a couple times and those left will relocate themselves to another area. Deer won't leave until the last one is dead, and they often birth triplets here because the nutrition is so good.

SRH

[Tom Flanigan]

I understand about the loss of income, Is the land posted ? Here in NH the F&G dept. wont give out permits to thin out the deer if the land is posted. They want the hunters to help control the deer problem, up here xmas tree farms take a pounding when bucks rub up the trees. You should have hunters come in to help thin out the heard.
scott

The crop damage permits in NY, at least in the years we got them, were issued to the land owner to do with as he pleases. By law, we had to turn in each deer to the game wardens. I stopped doing that as I mentioned in another post.

Allowing hunting on the property might work and, then again, it may not. We considered it years ago but decided against it. The concern was damage to standing crops but the biggest issue was strangers on the land. The owner of the land and I both agreed that there was too much potential risk to opening the property. We have airplanes and farm equipment up there and turning strangers loose on the property to see all that was there wasn’t a good idea. We have had thefts over the years even though you have to enter the property on a long private dirt road and the airstrip and hangers are well back on the property. I lost my .243 field gun to theft.

We watch the property carefully, most days I am in the shop on the airstrip but people still sneak in. A few years ago I chased three guys who were deer hunting on the lower end of the property. They walked back to their car and then emptied their guns into the trees over my head. I could hear the slugs whistling. They were screaming F bombs at me. I had no idea who they were.

Permitting hunting might help solve the deer problem, but it could potentially open up other problems.

[Tom Flanigan]

Nice video Stan. I don't know if we were allowed to shoot at night. I never asked. What I would do is drive to various fields in the evenings and shoot from the hood of the Jeep. I could usually take two deer from a field before they would dissappear into the woods. They would invariably run at the shot but some would stop at the wood line and look back. My favorite gun for this shooting was, as I mentioned, a .243 (later stolen). The .243 with 100 or 95 grain handloads usually put them down on impact if you shot high on the shoulder. I always aimed for the shoulder since some shots were long. They usually ran a bit if you shot lower on the shoulder or in the heart. I learned to place my shots higher.

There was an area next to the farm house that was thick and the deer were always in there. I shot this area in the morning with a high powered rifle till my friends wife complained that I was waking her up. I then went to a .22 magnum. I only took shots within 50 yards and aimed for the shoulder. Deer would usually only run about 50 yards or so. I never lost one. I picked my shots carefully. I'm not suggesting that the .22 magnum is a deer load but with shots well placed by a careful person, they did the job well.

[Stan Hoover]

Tom, we are allowed to shoot them at night, under permit, because that is the most efficient way to cull. I use a .300 Blackout on an AR platform with an ATN thermal scope. Head and neck shots only. Here is a short video filmed through one of our scopes showing the neck shot efficiency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmuM5trgpL8&t=96s

Scott, the land is not posted, per se. In GA private land does not have to posted with "No Trespassing" or "No Hunting" signs to be considered posted. It is private land and it is understood that it is private unless one has written permission, on their person, to be there. I have hunters working at the problem. Problem is, very few will go to the effort to hunt if they can't have a chance at killing a big set of antlers. And, you don't kill old bucks by shooting the first doe that steps out.

It's a very big problem. The density per acre here is so high that I have actually let land go, and stopped leasing it to farm, because I'd lose $$$ on it every year due to deer predation. This may be hard to understand, but having a problem with feral hogs too, I'd take the hogs over the deer any day, if I could get rid of one or the other. I can put a pack of hog dogs on the sounder of hogs a couple times and those left will relocate themselves to another area. Deer won't leave until the last one is dead, and they often birth triplets here because the nutrition is so good.

SRH

Have airplane, will travel to shoot deer:corn:

[Bob Brown]

Stan’s post is a good reminder that predator control has a situational aspect to a person’s opinions. Even the same animal separated by a relatively small distance can make it a kill on sight or ignore situation. I’ll apologise for the long post now, but I wanted to add my thoughts.

A few weeks ago someone on this site posted a picture of a litter of wolf pups that he and his co-workers would pass daily on their walk to a mine site. It reminded me of a similar litter of wolf pups that I’d park and watch while coming home from work near where I lived. Another member took exception to my post when I called the person who shot that litter of wolf pups an A-hole. He said a guy told him that wolves killed dogs in rural areas. Called me an enthusiastic uncontrolled wolf population A-Hole and implied I was vehemently anti-hunting. Then some more nonsense about spotted owls and trees. I have to admit I never read his post to the end and missed the name calling until I searched for the thread today. No matter, back to my point. The area I lived in was about 1200 square miles of mixed farmland and bush surrounded by a large area of government owned forest, the vast majority that was first growth. You could add Pennsylvania to the 6 New England states and fit them all in that area. Few roads, two towns, a few Metis settlements, and some First Nations reserves. Less than 20,000 people total. I lived on the northern edge of the farmland and wolves hit my neighbors hard. One night a nearby neighbor kicked his door open and shot two wolves while they were dragging his dog off the porch. My next door neighbors each lost several dogs to wolves. One of them heard llamas would protect livestock so he bought one and put it in with his horses. The wolves ate the llama in less than two weeks. The ½ mile buffer of cleared fields I kept between the house and the forest didn’t prevent them from coming up to the house, but I brought the dogs in at night and never lost one to wolves. We did lose one to a coyote. I'm glad my wife wasn't looking over my shoulder when I had Dean's pic of the coyote with the dog in his mouth on screen. I posted a few times on this site about when our Jack Russel terrier was killed by a coyote in our drive way. My wife loved that little dog and hardly stopped crying for a week. She'll still shed tears if she sees a picture of him.

Like all my neighbors I kept a rifle and ammo handy in case I got a crack at a wolf or coyote in the yard. At any time in the 25 years I lived there if there were a pack of wolves in my yard I would have killed them all if I had the chance. Not only would it be legal, the county would have, and still would, pay a $200 bounty for each adult shot on private land. A policy I whole heartedly support. Losing our dog led to my dusting off my predator calls and taking my 223 WSSM out to kill as many coyotes as possible around the house. I’m aware of the hypocrisy of carving farmland out of forest and then killing any predators that come onto MY land to do me or mine harm. The wolf pups I posted about lived in the forest area far from any residences or private property. Out there the ratio of predators and prey stays pretty much in balance, regardless of human intervention. Just because I would shoot a wolf or coyote in season while hunting that area doesn’t mean I’d illegally shoot a litter of pups. My wife had gone from accepting to tolerating my hunting as she almost morphed from neutral to an anti-hunting leaning over the course of our marriage. About a week after our dog was killed I wondered aloud about the effectiveness of an electronic predator call on sale in the Cabela’s flyer I was looking at. A week later it showed up. It’s just all situational.

[Robert Delk]

A coyote killed a young girl in Los Angeles county over 20 years ago as reported on the evening news at the time. The sheriff came on and said although it was illegal to discharge a firearm in parts of the county anyone doing it to kill a coyote would not be charged.He had seen the body which was partially devoured.

[John Bastiani]

That's a juuuuge coyote, as Trump would say. Fisher Cat? I've never even heard of one and figured it was the same as our marten up here but this pic shows that false! Jeeezus, they can be huge, bigger than a wolverine. They'd have to eat a lot of smaller critters to survive. I'd be, uh..hmmm.. uh, "looking for them" too if I had chickens or whatever.

I moved to Maryland(Deep Creek lake area) 3 years ago and was having some work done on my house. The contractor ask if I had ever seen a Fisher while trout fishing in some remote areas I go to. I said no and had to go look on the internet and see what they looked like. I live in the woods just off the main highway and see game almost everyday(Mainly deer-small game and the occasional Bear) I was looking out the door one day and noticed a strange creature in the back yard coming about 20 yards by the house. It was a fisher-the first one that I had ever seen. I don't know how aggressive they are towards humans but I really don't want to see one in the wild and find out. The contractor told me that at night they sound like babies crying and sitting out on my deck one night I heard that sound. I figure I might have a family of them close to the house but have only seen the fisher one time in the last 3 years.

[Stan Hillis]

We have a few panthers, some black, some brown, around here. They are the same cat as a cougar. They are highly efficient predators of deer and pigs. The cry of a panther is the most blood-chilling sound i've ever experienced. I was a kid, hunting 'coons at night near a big swamp, when I first heard it. It must have been within 100 yards, as loud as it was. It's been nearly sixty years since that night, but I recall it vividly, even now.

I lost all interest in 'coon hunting for awhile after that.........

SRH

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Stan, does the Georgia DNR admit to cougars in your area, or are they like most other eastern states that deny it. With the advent of all these trail cameras, its hard to deny. I have had pts. show me trail cam pics of cougars here in eastern Ohio.
Was hunting in Marquette county of the UP one year and ran into a guy with his Brittany on a leash--told me he was up in the area I was headed to, and got a very eerie feeling, turned around to see a cougar crouched down and creeping up on him--he was white as a ghost and truly scared. The next year was a film clip of 2 cougars crossing Rt 95--it came from the cameras on the front of the Michigan Highway Patrol.

[Dean Romig]

In the 80's when I worked in Boston and travelled Rte. 93 South every morning at 6:30 I was on my way in to work one morning when I saw what I thought was a smallish doe, dead up under the guard rail of the median. But as I drove past it and could see it from a different angle I discovered it wasn't a deer at all but was a cougar with the tail nearly as long as the body and the face of a cat. I should have stopped but the rush hour traffic was too intense.

I never heard or read a word about it on the TV news or the newspapers. It's as if the story was covered up.





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[Stan Hillis]

Stan, does the Georgia DNR admit to cougars in your area, or are they like most other eastern states that deny it.

They used to deny it. I haven't spoken to any of them about it in years. Not sure what their position is now. You're absolutely right about the trail cam evidence being overwhelming these days. Trail cams have been good for lots of things.

Panther numbers have been on a gradual increase here since the late 70s, IMO. Bald eagles, too.

Best, SRH

[Tom Flanigan]

I’ve noticed a somewhat interesting situation on the property. Throughout the fall and early winter there were many coyotes on the property. Now, for some reason, they seem to be gone. We have a lot of snowmobile and horse trails throughout the property. I have been all over the property on a snowmobile but have not seen a coyote track since we got the heavy snows. The deer tracks are thick in every area of the property, but no coyote tracks. I’m at a loss to explain it.

[Dean Romig]

Look around the deer yards, if you have any in the area.





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[Tom Flanigan]

Look around the deer yards, if you have any in the area.
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We don't have deer yards. The snow is not high enough for them to start yarding up. It's been about fifty years since I've seen deer yards on the property. We lost a lot of deer that year, the only year I can remember with major losses.

I caught one yearling deer. She wasn't hard to catch. I wanted to save her so I placed her in the barn with a lot of feed. She died the next day. Stressing her out to catch her probably didn't help. I wouldn't do that again.

[Richard Flanders]

There has been a number of reports of cougars here in Alaska. Can't remember if there are any pics.

[charlie cleveland]

I bet the rabbit population is down the reason the coyotes have moved on to other places or else distemper has killed them off....charlie

[Tom Flanigan]

It's hard to figure Charlie, with as many deer as there are in the area. Rabbit populations were pretty high this year as were squirrels. I would imagine that a lot of their food is rabbits and squirrels. But with all the deer I would have expected them to stick around all winter. I'll be watching to see if they return in the spring.

Turkey season isn't that far away and I'm already geting excited. I generally don't shoot turkeys in the fall although I get pleanty of chances when bowhunting deer. But the spring gobbler season really gets me going.

[Bruce Hering]

If I may suggest.... perhaps your population was hit hard by mange. That could provide a heavy die off if the weather has been bad enough. We have seen it here in Southernmost Illinois.

[Tom Flanigan]

Could be Bruce. I have mixed emotions about them leaving the area. On one hand I am happy that they are not taking any deer, but on the other hand, I have a feeling that they are helping to keep the deer herd in check. But I do hate the thought of them killing deer. It's probably a bad way to die.

I am the only one who seriously hunts the property. There's no way I can keep them in check, especially since I don't like to take the does. None of the land around the property is hunted, so if we get a bad winter, I can envision some problems. Starvation is a bad death. I have seen large scale starvation once, I don't want to see it again.

[Dean Romig]

Here's a big blonde female I saw today. She looks very well fed and had no fear of me.



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[Bob Jurewicz]

Dean,
That almost looks like a coy-dog mix. Do you have those?
In Northern NYS I have seen them.
Bob Jurewicz

[Richard Flanders]

Could that be a dog cross Dean??

[Dean Romig]

She is a pretty good example of one of the color variations of the Eastern Coyote. I posted these pics on FB yesterday and have had hundreds of comments from folks calling it a yellow lab, a husky, a shepherd-yellow lab mix, a coywolf, a coydog, and a few more but people are adamant that it can't be a coyote because it is too pretty, too fluffy, too big, too well-fed... ad nauseum. I have seen coyotes that look just like this in Vermont where I spend about all of my hunting time. A trapper there trapped a 64 lb. female that looked just like this one about 4 years ago. He said the blonde ones don't fetch as much $$.

In any case, just for the heck of it I looked up the terms coy-wolf, coywolf, coy-dog, coydog and any variation I could think of and they all came back with basically the same thing - those terms are not scientific but represent the thoughts of rural folks who attempt to describe coyotes with the attributes of the Eastern Coyote, which over thousands of years has developed through cross-breeding with other canine species to what it is today. So, it is what it is - a big blonde Eastern Coyote.





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[Gary Laudermilch]

The Eastern coyotes come in all sorts of colors. One of the reasons their pelts generally do not bring as much. Too hard to match colors. I've seen blonde, red, and charcoal black in addition to the more common grey. I once caught a red that was colored just about like a red fox except it lacked the black legs and white tail tip. It as unique and quite stunning. Take a look at a pack of grey wolves and you will see the same color variations.

[Bruce Hering]

Dean:

Thats a yote. Crossbred, no doubt, but a coyote no doubt.

I dont know how much you may have read on the subject of coyotes but it would seem that based on genetic findings a good percentage of the Eastern strain has cross bred with "other canine" species.... dogs and wolves.

[Stan Hillis]

In any case, just for the heck of it I looked up the terms coy-wolf, coywolf, coy-dog, coydog and any variation I could think of and they all came back with basically the same thing - those terms are not scientific but represent the thoughts of rural folks who attempt to describe coyotes with the attributes of the Eastern Coyote, which over thousands of years has developed through cross-breeding with other canine species to what it is today. So, it is what it is - a big blonde Eastern Coyote.

Evidently the opinion of the same kind of experts who denied there are panthers in GA years ago, after i'd seen them alive. If "they" say the EC has developed through cross-breeding with other canine species, I wonder why did it stop doing that?

I have personally trapped animals that I am sure were a cross between a dog (German Shepherd, in one particular case I remember) and a coyote. They don't even act like a coyote in a steel trap. A coyote turns it's head away from you when you approach it in a trap. A coy-dog is aggressive and growls and bares it's teeth at you. JME.

SRH

[Dean Romig]

Evidently the opinion of the same kind of experts who denied there are panthers in GA years ago, after i'd seen them alive. If "they" say the EC has developed through cross-breeding with other canine species, I wonder why did it stop doing that?

I have personally trapped animals that I am sure were a cross between a dog (German Shepherd, in one particular case I remember) and a coyote. They don't even act like a coyote in a steel trap. A coyote turns it's head away from you when you approach it in a trap. A coy-dog is aggressive and growls and bares it's teeth at you. JME.

SRH


I dunno Stan - Did I ever say they had stopped doing that?

I will say though Stan that we are far, far less likely to see a coyote that exhibits any "coy-dog" attributes than we are likely to see a coyote that looks like a plain ol' Eastern Coyote. The one I pictured looks like a lot of other blonde Eastern Coyotes I have seen, admittedly she is the biggest I've seen.

I will say that a lot of the guys I know both in VT as well as Maine and NH refer to all coyotes as "coy dogs" just like a lot of folks say "fisher cats" and "Canadian geese."





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[Stan Hillis]

No Dean, i didn't say you said that. My point is that if the so called experts you quoted have decided that the Eastern Coyote has become what it is because of cross-breeding with other canine species there is no reason to think they have stopped cross breeding with other canine species which, obviously, include dogs.

I do not believe, and did not insinuate that, the canine you pictured is a coy-dog. At least it doesn't look like any of them I have ever seen up close. The coy-dogs I have seen all had a much more "doggy" looking head than a pure coyote. For every coy-dog I've ever seen up close I have seen hundreds of brindled yellow/brown looking plain ol' coyotes. They are probably rare, but I'm convinced they do exist, regardless what the "experts" say. It's not only about looks. As I said earlier, IMO coy-dogs are much more defensive, even aggressive, than 'yotes.

[Dean Romig]

I agree Stan, and I think today's Eastern Coyote got its superior size from crossing with wolves in Canada on its migration across Canada and down into the Northeastern US and not as much with domestic dogs of course until just the last couple of hundred years at most.





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