Last of the Remingtons

[jefferyconnor]

This is my 1894 Remington, serial #138975. This places it in the post-1910 period after Remington sold their existing doubles to a large hardware store chain. I have seen a picture of the letter from Remington to, I think, Shapliegh Hardware. Does anyone know what the highest number recorded is for this model? Does anyone have an idea how long it took them to sell these off? Is there any period advertising from the hardware company a member could share?

[Pete Lester]

According to the data contained in the book "Remington Double Barrel Shotguns" by Charles Semmer your gun gun was built in 1910. The last serial number listed for a model 1894 is 141194, which is also listed in the 1910 production, 137989-141194.

[Brian Dudley]

That gun is in beautiful condition!

[chris dawe]

dandy gun !

[Dave Noreen]

The Remington Hammerless Doubles last appear in the 64 page 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalog. Here are the pages 18 and 19 with the Trap Guns --

92231

92232

For most of its years the CEO-Grade Trap Gun listed at $95 but got a big price increase in this last catalog.

92234

There was also a 36 page 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalog that didn't include the doubles.

The highest serial number Remington Hammerless Doubles I've recorded are a nest of D Quality guns with Krupp Steel barrels that I guess we would call DEK-Grades in the 1406xx serial number block. A few years back Steve Barnett had 140674 for sale. I looked at it at the winter Las Vegas show.

92233

Serial number 140670 28-inch straight grip and 140672 30-inch straight grip sold at the December 2019 RIA auction. I've also seen 140667 a set of Krupp barrels. Wonder if they will appear as a complete gun one of these days!!

[jefferyconnor]

According to the data contained in the book "Remington Double Barrel Shotguns" by Charles Semmer your gun gun was built in 1910. The last serial number listed for a model 1894 is 141194, which is also listed in the 1910 production, 137989-141194.

Thanks, J.B.

[jefferyconnor]

[QUOTE=Dave Noreen;322536]The Remington Hammerless Doubles last appear in the 64 page 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalog. Here are the pages 18 and 19 with the Trap Guns --

Thanks, Researcher. I wonder how long the hardware store took to sell them off and if Shapleigh ran ads in magazines back then? I remember Remington was concerned of shotgun market damage if all 5,000 guns were dumped at once.

[jefferyconnor]

Also, my gun is hand engraved on the barrels, not roll stamped. It doesn't state the type of steel, I had assumed Ordnance steel as stated in the ad researcher posted, but I'll look the barrels over to see if they are marked Krupp anywhere.

[Dave Noreen]

The Trap Gun."F".Grade had Remington Steel barrels.

92249

[Ed Norman]

what a beautiful old shotgun,

[jefferyconnor]

what a beautiful old shotgun,

It is, thanks! It's one of two guns I have that rate pretty much heart stopping in terms of condition, lines and beauty.

[Chris Robenalt]

Jeff, is that a 16?

[Dave Noreen]

While the Remington Hammerless Doubles in A- to EEO-Grade were offered in 10-, 12- and 16-gauge, the FE-Grade Trap Gun was only catalogued in 12-gauge with 30-inch Remington Steel barrels from its introduction in the 1905-06 Remington Arms Co. catalog through the last appearance of the doubles in the 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalog. Careful reading of the catalog text indicates also 32-inch barrels but I've yet to record an FE with 32-inch barrels.

[charlie cleveland]

I only have 2 Remington doubles one is a a grade 10 ga with steel barrels and 30 inch barrels and a 1894 12 ga with ordance seel barrels and 26 inch barrels....both guns are ejector guns...the 12 ga weighs a little bit over 6 lbs...a nice gun to tote if walking all day...and the ten ga is lite too at 8 1/4 lbs...charlie

[Frank Srebro]

It's commonly known that 12-gauge Remington 1894 and 1900 double-guns were typically targeted with 1-1/4 ounce of #8 hard shot and the "pellet counts" were stamped on the barrel lug.

How about 16-gauge Remington 1894 and 1900's? The pellet count numbers don't seem to correlate with the choke constrictions unless you cipher using 1-1/8 ounce of #8 shot. But the max 16-gauge period loads topped out at 1-ounce of shot. Last I read, no Remington hang tags have surfaced that would show the load and specifics for targeting 16's. So with that in mind, who has what thoughts on these 16-gauge pellet count numbers?

[Ken Descovich]

Here is a picture of my 16 ga model 1894.
Ken

[Frank Srebro]

Thank you Ken. Your 295/300 correlates with strong Full choke in both barrels if targeting had been done with 1-ounce of chilled 8’s. Out of curiosity do you know the decimal constrictions in both barrels?

[Dave Noreen]

There were 409 #8s per ounce, so 300/409 = 73.3% and 295/409 = 72.1%

I believe the 16-gauge guns were targeted with 1 ounce of #8s, but have yet to find a hang-tag to confirm that. My two 16-gauges are marked 293 (71.6%) left & 288 (70.4%) right, and 301 (73.6%) left & 246 (60.1%) right.

The pellet count tables in the Remington Arms Co. catalogs of the period give counts for 40%, 60% and 75% but show patters labeled Cylinder, Modified Choke and Full Choke.

Just to keep us confused, Remington Arms Co. put recommended maximum powder charges on the back of their hang-tags for all three gauges, but no mention of shot charge?!? This tag shows the old Laflin & Rand dense smokeless powder --

92727

By this tag they have moved on to the L & R Infallible --

92728

[Frank Srebro]

I agree, it seems logical that 16 bore Remington 1894 and 1900 guns would have been targeted using 1-ounce loads of # 8c shot by count in the 40 yard/30" circle.

Then we look at the Remington 1900 barrels pictured on page 51 of the DGJ, Volume 28/Issue 2. Note the pellet count of 228 for the right barrel and accompanying comment by the respected Remington double-gun author, Terry Deem, that 228 indicates an original "Improved Cylinder" aka 1/4 choke. He also states that a pellet count of 268 would be correct for "Modified" choke.

But we remember that IC is defined as 45% efficiency in the 30" circle at 40 yards. Now then, if 1-ounce loads had been used for targeting ..... 228/409 = 55.7% or almost Improved-Modified (3/4 choke).

Mr Deen ciphered using 460 pellets in 1-1/8 of # 8c shot to ID that 228 right barrel choke but that still doesn't work out. 228/460 = 49.6% or actually about "Modified" or what was called 1/2 choke.

All this math is confusing. To further our knowledge of these great Remington double-guns it would be nice if 16-gauge 1894/1900 owners would post the pellet counts AND the actual constrictions for each choke. That in turn would allow us to correlate and with a large enough sample size, to work backwards to the pellet size and maybe even that a different distance was used when these 16 bore guns were targeted and stamped for pellet count.

[Dave Noreen]

My 16-gauge KE-Grade that is stamped 288 right and 293 left is .024" in both barrels. This gun is 1909 vintage by Charles Semmer's serial number chronology.

My 16-gauge DEO-Grade that is stamped 246 right and 301 left is .014" right and .032" left. This gun is 1905 vintage.

[Jack Huber]

My 1899 vintage 16 gauge Model 1894 AE Remington is marked 276 on the right barrel and the constriction is .018". The left barrel is marked 278 and has .027" constriction.

I have two 16 gauge 1900 models - I'll try to measure them tomorrow and post the results here. I'm glad to help with this project, it is something I have often wondered about.

[Jack Huber]

As promised, here are the pellet counts and choke constrictions on my two 16 gauge Model 1900s:
K Grade made in 1904, 28" barrels: Right pellet count 318, choke .020". Left pellet count 324, choke .018".
K Grade made in 1908, 26" barrels: Right pellet count 282, choke .014". Left pellet count 277, choke .019". The pellet counts were Xed out on this gun but are still legible.
It's hard to draw a conclusion from these figures, but that's what I have.

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks everyone. Yes, the data is hard to interpret. That's what got me to thinking about these 16-gauge Remingtons some time ago and prompted me to post here. Let's give it a few more days and I'll try to summarize and add my thoughts.

[Daryl Corona]

OK Frank, here's what I have if you can figure it out. The lug is stamped 292 right ,300 left and is X'ed out if you can make it out. It's a 16 KED.

The bores are .673 r, .671 left with the corresponding constrictions of .006 r, .016 left. That certainly doesn't jive with the stampings. The chokes don't look like they have been touched but then again I'm not sure of the significance of the X'ed stampings.

Also, anyone have any idea what the 4 digits, 4487, stamped on the receiver flats and the fore end iron mean?

It's a pretty nice gun as it has the POW grip with 28" barrels.

[Dave Noreen]

Some have called those extra, usually four-digit numbers, on K-quality Remington Hammerless Doubles assembly numbers. All but two of the K-quality guns I've saved out pictures of have these extra sets of numbers. One gun in the 367xxx range has a three-digit number, 188, and that gun's lug is stamped CYL and MOD?!? The other is a 16-gauge two-barrel set that doesn't have the numbers.