New 16 Trojan

[Andrew Sacco]

Like I described yesterday I picked the VH (just posted) and did the deal. But I kept going back to this Trojan with 26" tubes. There was one thing I didn't like at all that made me walk away, and that's that it's F/F choked. But something about it is special. It has the build of a tank but doesn't handle like one. It's fast, not light, but certainly in no way heavy. There is that "something" that just wouldn't let me walk away and the condition was very nice. When we rapped the tubes and they rang like church bells I was sold. I will get flamed but I would consider having the chokes opened, but will likely just shoot spreader loads for a season and see where that takes me. I would hate to touch it if I didn't have to. I wonder if one day it was a turkey, squirrel or wood duck gun.

Now a sincere thank you to EVERYONE on here, and Don Mills in particular, who have helped me take the right due diligence baby steps. Hopefully I didn't screw this up. Without this board I would be making expensive mistakes, and I'm not entirely sure there are not faults here, but then again at some point you gotta take that leap and succumb to the disease. So thank you everyone, sincerely. My gun buying is now OVER (until Tuesday that is, when my VHE 12 arrives :))

[Andrew Sacco]

And a few more...

[Keith Doty]

Sweet Trojan! Looks like another sound buy. Looks like the stock may have been refinished and barrels re-blued at some point but I consider that maintenance on a well used field gun. This 16 will be wicked over decoys!

[Andrew Sacco]

Sweet Trojan! Looks like another sound buy. Looks like the stock may have been refinished and barrels re-blued at some point but I consider that maintenance on a well used field gun. This 16 will be wicked over decoys!

I asked purposely about a re-blue and stock refinish and he said he didn't "think so" because it's a later gun it looks this way. One of the barrels is worn more to one end on the bluing so they're not pristine. To me there's a "disconnect" between the receiver wear and the rest of the gun, but that's just my gut talking to me. In any event it's not done poorly, at least I don't think so, and it seems sound. But it's the way it feels and the dimensions that sold it. (but I'm preaching to the choir here..) And we came to a much better deal for me because I did two guns and neither of us planned on that. Least of all me!

[Andrew Sacco]

Also Keith, I mentioned considering opening the chokes. I wouldn't do that to a gun with a great chance for upside appreciation or one that hasn't been touched. I find my greatest challenge in knowing what is "untouched" vs "touched" or refinished.

[Keith Doty]

I think re-blued from the weep hole in the bottom rib just in front of the extractor passage, stock looks a bit too "fresh" for the honest wear on the gun. On a shooter gun, not a bad thing to my mind. Protects from the elements in the field. By serial number I believe it to be a later or "Remington era" gun. Looks like I see the tell tale "Parker" engraved on the bottom of the receiver.

[James L. Martin]

Never really looked for a Trojan until I saw a 20ga 28 inch one and like you said I had to have it, that was 4 plus years ago, still one of my favorite Parker's. I'm no expert but I also thought the wood was redone. Nice gun

[Andrew Sacco]

I think re-blued from the weep hole in the bottom rib just in front of the extractor passage, stock looks a bit too "fresh" for the honest wear on the gun. On a shooter gun, not a bad thing to my mind. Protects from the elements in the field. By serial number I believe it to be a later or "Remington era" gun. Looks like I see the tell tale "Parker" engraved on the bottom of the receiver.

Hi Keith. I haven't gotten to the Trojan section of The Parker Story, almost there. But yes it does have "Parker" engraved on the bottom but will have to figure out the significance of that.

[Mike Koneski]

Hi Keith. I haven't gotten to the Trojan section of The Parker Story, almost there. But yes it does have "Parker" engraved on the bottom but will have to figure out the significance of that.

The Remington guns had Parker engraved on the bottom of the gun instead of the side of the receiver. Nice find Andy. That’ll be a great shooter for you. If you shoot it for a while and decide you want to open the chokes, I know a guy. It’s a shooter piece, not a collector piece. Nothing wrong with M/F or even LM/IM. Our shooting styles are much different than the prevailing methods of 100 years ago. We don’t need F/F to kill everything. Take each gun on a case by case thought process.

[Dave Noreen]

Very nice Trojan. That must be one of the very last Trojan's made. I see two date codes on the left barrel flat -- an EG (E = October & G = 1938), and a WH (W = August & H = 1939). The Trojan is gone from the January 2, 1939, The Parker Gun Retail Price List. I looked in The Parker Story and they don't mention the last Trojan by serial number in the Trojan chapter. What is the highest serial number Trojan in Parkers Found?

[Keith Doty]

When Remington bought Parker evidently they didn't get "Parker Bros" and I think all the post sale guns had "Parker" engraved on the bottom while the pre-sale guns say "Parker Bros" on the sides. That may not be so with all of what they call transition era guns. I think there was a while in there where they finished some Meriden guns and started some new order guns. Our historian guys can tell you much more detail than I.
Looked at the serialization book, both of your guns are listed (a fair number are not, a couple of mine included). They list as:
239080 J H 0 P 16 26
232452 V H 0 C 16 28
That looks like EXACTLY you have.

[Andrew Sacco]

Interesting Dave. Bill mentioned when I was looking at it that it is a very high number but I hadn’t looked into it. I’ll probably request the letters on the guns anyways I find that stuff interesting.

[Keith Doty]

I thought that might be a very late Trojan # and looked. Highest serial number I saw was 240818, a 20 ga I think.

[Mike Koneski]

Dave, I have the Parkers Found list and will check it now. That list is being published in the new Parker Pages.

[Andrew Sacco]

I felt geeky Keith but I brought the Serialization book in there with me. Everything matches up best I can tell. Bores look untouched on both guns (or more specifically on the VH)

[Mike Koneski]

“We have yet to find the first and last Trojan....”

There are a few Trojans on the list but they are in the 202xxx to 208xxx range due to specific features.

Dave has a good point. See what you can find in Parker Pages and Serialization and Identification books. Maybe you’ll be able to sell it for much more than you bought it for and buy some more shooters!!

[Keith Doty]

Be Geeky! I show up with a bore gauge, a tool for barrel wall thickness, the serialization book, a bore scope, my cheat sheet with bore and choke numbers, choke gauge and a light. I'm getting ready to part with a pocket full of cash and am not embarrassed to haul a truck load of stuff with me. There are a fair number of guns that have been honed to death, have pitted barrels, have had all kinds of efforts made to hide those "warts". This will not be a 5 minute deal. Any dealer that has ANY problem with a dress inspection, turn around and get out of there now!

[Andrew Sacco]

You guys are very helpful. I appreciate it. What is the Parkers Found list? I’d love to learn how to use all those tools Keith. It’s nerve wracking wading the unknown.

[Mike Koneski]

Parkers Found has been a recurring feature in Parker Pages that lists many firsts and lasts when it comes to Parker guns and the various different features and changes over the years. Josh Loewensteiner compiles the current list and does a fine job.

[Bruce Day]

I think re-blued from the weep hole in the bottom rib just in front of the extractor passage, stock looks a bit too "fresh" for the honest wear on the gun. On a shooter gun, not a bad thing to my mind. Protects from the elements in the field. By serial number I believe it to be a later or "Remington era" gun. Looks like I see the tell tale "Parker" engraved on the bottom of the receiver.

Are you contending that Remington made Parkers did not have barrel bluing weep holes?

Check TPS.

[Mike Koneski]

The highest serial number for a Trojan on the Parkers Found list is 226709. It is a James P Hayes prototype. This gun was featured in the DGJ, Summer 2013, written by Brian Dudley.

[Dave Noreen]

I think all the post sale guns had "Parker" engraved on the bottom while the pre-sale guns say "Parker Bros" on the sides.

There are transition era guns that don't have either. This example is a 20-gauge 235719 --

92150

92151

We still find the PARKER BROS. MAKERS MERIDEN, CT, U.S.A. rib legend into the 240xxx range like this GHE 240492 --

92152

[Keith Doty]

Bruce, honestly I didn't consider that. I saw the barrels assembled on the receiver looking "too good" for the wear on the receiver and the weep hole and jumped to conclusion. I wasn't aware that Remington used a weep hole on new production. That said, I'm still of the opinion they were re-blued, they just don't match the wear I see on the receiver. Same with the stock.

[todd allen]

If that is an original untouched gun, it would be a mistake to open the chokes. If it's been refinished, not so much.
My go to gun is a 32" VHE 12, with Full/Full. I have killed a lot of desert quail with that gun. Also have a 28" Trojan 20 with Mod/Full chokes. A fun little quail and grouse gun.
That's a beautiful Trojan. Use it in good health!

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Really nice Trojan--you did well. I have a PH 20 with steel barrels choked F/F. From TPS there were only about 100 PH 20's with Parker steel barrels in 28". Have other open choked 20's , so wont change them.(It's also a bit of a pig for an O frame 20 weighing 6 lbs 12 oz)

[Victor Wasylyna]

When Remington bought Parker evidently they didn't get "Parker Bros"

This is a myth that keeps going around. Remington owned the PARKER BROS. mark—in addition to the PARKER mark (and several other PARKER-related marks)—up until October 23, 2020, when JJE - PARKER BRANDS, LLC acquired Remington’s Parker assets. See attachment.

-Victor

[Andrew Sacco]

I looked very carefully and I can see around the butt plate small specks of varnish or finish so it looks like at least a coat was applied with the butt plate on. I could scratch it off with my fingernail and it’s too hard to be dried oil. None on the gun metal was found but in the right light I can see where small areas have the top coat missing up near the top lever. I’m not versed in the finishes of gun stocks but something was applied for sure but it’s probably an armchair gunsmith or not one specializing in refinishing. It will be a shooter.

[Alfred Greeson]

I would say that Trojan is a candidate for discussion at one of the serious meets where others can take a look at it. I am no expert but my money says the metal is original and you may have an extra coat of varnish applied but I would not alter it at all.

[Andrew Sacco]

I would say that Trojan is a candidate for discussion at one of the serious meets where others can take a look at it. I am no expert but my money says the metal is original and you may have an extra coat of varnish applied but I would not alter it at all.

I will bring it to my first SxS event this year. Thank you Alfred

[Frank Srebro]

Just my opinion and I know it goes against the grain of purist collectors but so often it seems gents take the tact of trying to sustain a 99% museum piece even though not warranted. If the gun isn't in very high original condition what's wrong with PROPERLY opening the tight choke(s) on a 26 or 28" double gun that its owner wants to use for serious upland hunting? No I'm not talking about some shade tree gunsmith using an adjustable reamer from the muzzle ends and going to something like Cylinder and IC for spray & pray shooting. But in 16b something like 12 and 20 thou choking (Lt Mod and I-Mod) is the nuts for a good upland and clays combo. And the more you shoot clays with that gun the better you and it do when out hunting.

Again all this is my opinion but it's based in part by seeing so many gents at shooting events doing upland-oriented courses with tightly choked vintage double guns and coming back in tearing up their cards and with excuses galore. Net they own a gun that might be good to look at and show around at events or in the gun room, but is a handicap where it counts. And often that's the opposite of their intent in buying the gun.

Surely there are different perspectives on things and I value that. This is mine from a lifetime of shooting and upland hunting with double guns.

[Andrew Sacco]

Just my opinion and I know it goes against the grain of purist collectors but so often it seems gents take the tact of trying to sustain a 99% museum piece even though not warranted. If the gun isn't in very high original condition what's wrong with PROPERLY opening the tight choke(s) on a 26 or 28" double gun that its owner wants to use for serious upland hunting? No I'm not talking about some shade tree gunsmith using an adjustable reamer from the muzzle ends and going to something like Cylinder and IC for spray & pray shooting. But in 16b something like 12 and 20 thou choking (Lt Mod and I-Mod) is the nuts for a good upland and clays combo. And the more you shoot clays with that gun the better you and it do when out hunting.

Again all this is my opinion but it's based in part by seeing so many gents at shooting events doing upland-oriented courses with tightly choked vintage double guns and coming back in tearing up their cards and with excuses galore. Net they own a gun that might be good to look at and show around at events or in the gun room, but is a handicap where it counts. And often that's the opposite of their intent in buying the gun.

Surely there are different perspectives on things and I value that. This is mine from a lifetime of shooting and upland hunting with double guns.

I appreciate that perspective Frank. I don't know if I've posted this within this or other threads but I'm not quite sure I even know what a "collector" is. I belong to the PGCA but I don't consider myself a collector. I'm more of a "user" and "preserver." I have a friend who has several Porsche's and Corvettes in those damn blow up garage bubbles to keep them absolutely pristine. They are fine cars, but none of them are likely to increase in value much (ie he doesn't have an original 959 there or 968 Turbo S.) Personally I think I would get more enjoymnent driving them (the Porsche's anyways not the Vettes). So my point is, what is a collector? I don't think either is wrong since I don't control other's pocket books. But I would surely check with folks on here as a sounding board if I were to alter a gun before I made a potential mistake.

[Andrew Sacco]

Well this just in. Hung up with the dealer to discuss another matter and it turns out this Trojan came from a collection in NC and was at Hausmann's in 2019 with it's owner. It was examined by Doug Turnbull who said he believed it was an untouched gun (as to finish and bluing) and the dealer said his feelings are that it is untouched as well and not enough exists to say it was ever refinished. So I guess others on here will have to look at it.

[Alfred Greeson]

I would bet on Doug's opinion. I think I had looked at that gun on line before seeing your pics, it is a nice Trojan. One to be proud to own. I'm like mentioned earlier, not a collector as such but really like my Parker's. When you start shooting them, you will understand why they are sought after and they just fit. Like all the discussion on the 0 frame 16's, they may have been special order, but they are great, especially when you find one that feels like it was made for you.

[Andrew Sacco]

I would bet on Doug's opinion. I think I had looked at that gun on line before seeing your pics, it is a nice Trojan. One to be proud to own. I'm like mentioned earlier, not a collector as such but really like my Parker's. When you start shooting them, you will understand why they are sought after and they just fit. Like all the discussion on the 0 frame 16's, they may have been special order, but they are great, especially when you find one that feels like it was made for you.

This gun may or may not have been listed on line, he couldn't remember if he had. I have no further information on the history of the gun but will request a letter if one if available.

[Mike Koneski]

I agree 100% with Frank’s comments.

[David Noble]

I have no further information on the history of the gun but will request a letter if one if available.

There are factory records for this gun according to the "Research Letter" tool on the home page of the PGCA. Being a Remington era gun the info may be scant since Remington used IBM cards rather than hand written entries in their log books. However, Chuck Bishop was able to find quite a bit of additional and interesting factory records on a Remington era GHE 16ga Skeet gun I possess. I recommend you get the letter.

[Keith Doty]

This is a myth that keeps going around. Remington owned the PARKER BROS. mark—in addition to the PARKER mark (and several other PARKER-related marks)—up until October 23, 2020, when JJE - PARKER BRANDS, LLC acquired Remington’s Parker assets. See attachment.

-Victor
I stand corrected! Interesting documents,. Thank you, Sir.

[Dave Noreen]

What about Parker Brothers games -- Monopoly, Risk, Pit, Clue, etc? Parker pens?

[Mike Koneski]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! Good call Dave!

[John Davis]

I believe, if this was my gun, I would quit worrying about whether it's in original condition or not and just enjoy it.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Best advise I've seen John

[Andrew Sacco]

I believe, if this was my gun, I would quit worrying about whether it's in original condition or not and just enjoy it.

Who’s worried? It was bought as a shooter and will be used. I do appreciate learning to evaluate these guns and everyone’s help.

[Dean Romig]

Andy, from an educational perspective only, these pictures are of the checkering on my Trojan 20 ga. No. 174217
Original Parker Bros. checkering was much coarser and flat topped. I don’t know how Remington checkered their Trojans - I’m only offering a comparison.



.

[Andrew Sacco]

Interesting Dean thank you.

[James L. Martin]

Here's my 20ga Trojan #237xxx says PARKER on bottom of receiver. Someone added a early Parker grip cap,very well done.

[Andrew Sacco]

I'm assuming two things: the LPI is the same and the older ones were cut differently from what I can tell. Haven't compared a different, earlier, Trojan side by side in person. He had another Trojan 16 (Meriden) but it was rough and loose so I didn't even compare them.

[Dean Romig]

Okay so, Remington cut pyramid diamonds instead of the Meriden flat top diamonds.

I learn something new every day.






.

[Andrew Sacco]

Okay so, Remington cut pyramid diamonds instead of the Meriden flat top diamonds.

I learn something new every day..

Well, you put what I MEANT much more eloquently : )

[allen newell]

The stock has been refinished. The wood rests flush to the frame, not slightly proud of the frame as I have seen on most original untouched Parkers. The checkering is too clean to not have been re-cut.
This is not a criticism. This Trojan is very nice and a 16 at that! Take it out and shoot some grouse and woodcock with it. If you have a grandson or granddaughter who is interested in shooting, put it in your will for them. That is what I have done. Enjoy it

[Donald F. Mills]

Andy, I am glad it worked out for you. Those are two great guns. I also consider myself a preserver of shooters as most of mine are but I have been able to purchase a couple of guns that are pretty much original. One hammer gun in particular had some work done on it by Parker Brothers as noted in the research letter. When time allows you will have to come visit and we can have a Parker “show and tell”

[Andrew Sacco]

Just tell me when!! Thank you Don.