0 Frame 16s

[Keith Doty]

A while back, and I don't remember what thread or who said, but the conversation turned to the 0 frame 16s. Someone refereed to them as the almost seen misty shadow figures of Camelot. Really? Do we know how many are out there? How many w/Damascus or with fluid steel, Any twist?
I can account for only 1, VH 26" M x I chokes, appears original to me but doubt leather covered butt pad. Wish I had more of 'em. 0 frame 16 w/30" barrels for doves, Hmmmm. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Note the tiny "K" on the frame lug next to the 0. Any wisdom on my questions is welcomed and appreciated as always.

[Richard Flanders]

I have a #1-1/2 frame, SG transition era 26" VH12 with a leather covered pad like that. Am unsure of it's originality.

[Dave Noreen]

Here is a similar tiny K on the lug of the massive 6-frame 12-guge Quality VH the Puglisi had some years ago --

91673

I have also seen that tiny K stamped in the space between the lug and the cocking hook, but can't lay my cursor on a picture right now.

I have recorded a very tiny J.S on the lug of many hammer guns and some early hammerless ones --

91674

[Dean Romig]

Keith, of all the 16’s I’ve handled or even seen about half have been on the 0-frame. Of all the 16’s I have owned only 1 is other than a o-frame.







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[Brian Dudley]

They are not rare by any means.

I have personally seen more 0 frame 16s than I have 1 frame 16s. By a lot.

[Andrew Sacco]

They are not rare by any means.

I have personally seen more 0 frame 16s than I have 1 frame 16s. By a lot.

That's odd. Searching hard, no price limitations, I find one #0 frame for every 100 #1 frames for sale (estimation and maybe exaggeration but it's clear I can't find them). Maybe the folks who have them never sell them?? I probably wouldn't.

[Dean Romig]

But we must remember the standard frame size for the sixteen gauge was always the 1-frame.






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[Bob Jurewicz]

I have 2. They each weigh in at just 6#. One has 28" barrels the other 26". Don't plan on parting with them any time soon. And that is why you don't find as many for sale that often.
Bob Jurewicz

[Dave Noreen]

In the later years, anything over 200000, I seem to see far more 1-frame 16-gauges.

In continuing to look through the pictures I've saved I see tiny O, B, D, V in addition to the K and J.S on the lug and in the space forward of the lug. And, just to be different, my Father's old 12-gauge Quality VH has a tiny 6 next to the much larger 2 frame size stamp on the lug?!?

[Keith Doty]

I have 2 16s that serial number over 200000, one a VH SST, one a GHE SST, both are on #1 frames, 28", both about 6#6oz. This gun weighs 5#14oz, barrels stamped 2#15oz.
I wonder what the tiny letters indicate.

[Dean Romig]

Show us a picture of the tiny letters.

If they are J.S. It is the stamp of John Stokes.



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[Zacharysmith]

I have two 16, 0 frames. A VH and a DHE. Both fluid 26". The VH is 6lb 4 oz and the DHE is 6 even. The VH was fairly easy to locate but the DHE took some legwork.

[Andrew Clark]

I recently acquired my first 16 on a 0 frame. A grade 1 (PH) with 32" twist barrels in the 76k serial number range. It weighs a dainty 6 lbs 12 oz.

[Jerry VanHorn]

I have 3 VH...one is straight grip..2 GH..one is straight grip..and 1 TL lightened frame hammer..

[Chad Hefflinger]

I have 5 total. Two Trojans, a skeet, and a PH w/32" tubes all on the 1 frame. I have a GH with Damascus 28" tubes on a 0 frame. I also have a VHE20 / 26" obviously on the 0 frame. I like the smaller frame size in 16 or 20 for grouse/woodcock hunting.

[Mills Morrison]

In the later years, anything over 200000, I seem to see far more 1-frame 16-gauges.

In continuing to look through the pictures I've saved I see tiny O, B, D, V in addition to the K and J.S. on the lug and in the space forward of the lug. And, just to be different, my Father's old 12-gauge Quality VH has a tiny 6 next to the much larger 2 frame size stamp on the lug?!?



I have noticed the same thing. I don't remember seeing any 0 frame 16's over sn 200,000. My theory is they got better at making stronger lighter weight barrels. But who knows?

The best are the 26" 0 frame 16's. I have one that is 6 pounds even and handles like my 28's

[Keith Doty]

Dean, the tiny letter I refer to is in photo #7 on the lug just forward of the 0 indicating frame size. It is a "K". "Researcher" is aware of several different ones including the JS you refer to.

[Dave Noreen]

Show us a picture of the tiny letters.

If they are J.S It is the stamp of John Stokes.


I showed the J.S on the lug of hammer gun 42647 in my first post in this thread. Here it is on a hammerless 60605 --

91679

and hammer gun 35651 --

91681

Here is the tiny K on 138615 red arrow --

91680

[Keith Doty]

Are these initials of one of the craftsmen? Any reason (known) they appear on some guns and not others?

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I see more O frame than 1 frame 16's. I have 4 1/2 16 Parkers. The VH, my first, is the one frame. A GH, DHE, and 16 hammer are O frame. The DHE letters at 6lbs with its 26" barrels. I have the O frame and 34" twist barrels from a 16 hammer gun--no lightening cuts in that frame.

[Andrew Sacco]

I see more O frame than 1 frame 16's. I have 4 1/2 16 Parkers. The VH, my first, is the one frame. A GH, DHE, and 16 hammer are O frame. The DHE letters at 6lbs with its 26" barrels. I have the O frame and 34" twist barrels from a 16 hammer gun--no lightening cuts in that frame.

I just keep seeing the same guns over and over and over for sale on all the usual sights and dealers :rolleyes:

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I think the best place to buy is here, from PGCA members. Can sometimes get lucky at a small time shop or Pawn shop

[Dean Romig]

....but the good ones go very quickly.

You know what they say about he who hesitates...



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[Dave Noreen]

For some reason I am finding the tiny K on the lug and a tiny V in the space forward of the lug a lot in the 150xxx and lower 160xxx range.

91682

91683

91684

91685

and here is one with a tiny B on the lug.

91686

Then back to a tiny K.

91687

In the upper 160xxx range we begin seeing the gauge stamped on the barrel lug.

[allen newell]

I had DelGrego restore my grandfathers/Dad's 16 ga VH about 12 yrs ago. All new wood built to my specifications based on being measured at Covey and Nye way back when. Ironically, I can't hit much with it. Not sure why but as it's a family heirloom, I can't let it go. So it just sits in my safe for the most part. I take it out every now and then to shoot skeet and after the first round with it, I revert to the GH 20.
One more story on this sweet 16. It killed my grandfather. Sometime during the Depression, my grandfather bought a farm in Bow New Hampshire. One weekend at the farm he was shooting hand trap with his boys. At some point when he fired the gun, on the recoil his thumb came back and struck his nose. He went home with what he thought was a headache and died the next morning of a cerebral hemorrhage. My dad inherited the gun and continued to hunt with it until his passing when it came into my hands. Having grown up with 16's and being a family piece, I just couldn't get rid of it. By then the stock was pretty punky and beat up so after being measured I drove to Del Gregos shop, met with Babe and Lawrence jr and had them do a complete rebuild. Picked it up a yr later. The rest of the story i stated above. Oh the memories though.....

[Dean Romig]

Allen, bring it to Addieville next time we all meet there... I'd like to see if I can hit anything with it... no disrespect intended my friend.





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[allen newell]

Dean, I will bring it. And you're welcome to shoot it to your hearts delight. I haven't figured out how to post pics on this site so I'll email some to you separately.

[Dean Romig]

May I share them here?





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[allen newell]

Sure

[allen newell]

Sure, for the record it is a 16 ga VH with 28 inch barrels on a #1 frame. Ser # 221866. Mfg date is 1927.

[allen newell]

By all means Dean. Its a 16 ha vh on a #1 frame. Ser nbr 221866 as best I can read.
Dean, the 4 gents that I shoot skeet with and bird hunt with and I are planning on shooting sporting Clay's at Addieville on Jan 20. You and anyone else is welcome to join us. If you come, I'll have the 16 on hand.

[allen newell]

Dean, I emailed pics to you. If you want pics of the inside of the frame and barrel flats, Ill take some more and send.

[Scott Barter]

I just purchased one ata gun show this weekend. The lop is a bit short and it needs the second barrel opened up but they chime nicely. This 1909 specimen is just under six pounds. I am so excited to get it fixed up and then to the range.
It’s a vh. I also have a 1920vh 12 gauge on a 1 frame.

[Dean Romig]

Scott, have you even shot it yet? Why do you need to open the second barrel? I’m presuming you mean the choke?
If it’s too tight for your purposes why not use spreader loads in that barrel and keep the gun the way it was made?





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[Scott Barter]

Dean,
It has IC and a really tight full second barrel. I want it to be my go to bird gun so opening up the second choke is much more if a desireable solution vs the spreader loads when I would only need that shell for the second Barrel.

[Dean Romig]

I'm just thinking of an all-around upland bird gun when late season birds often flush a lot farther out and that tighter choke becomes invaluable on those shots.





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[Scott Barter]

Agreed! But I also have a VH 12 on a 1 frame. It has modified and full chokes which is a great late season pheasant gun. I’m in Idaho so I primarily hunt chukars and Huns.

[Garry L Gordon]

I don't have any experience with chuckers, but open/tight chokes for Huns has served me really well. It's also a near perfect choke combination for wild Bobs on the prairie...if 35 years of successfully hunting them is an indicator. I often have to change out shells depending on the conditions and when a pheasant might be lurking about. Has changing shells in one barrel caused me to miss some opportunities -- occasionally -- but it's also allowed me the versatility to match conditions when they change. AND, I still have the originality of the gun.

You know your shooting and your needs best, but as someone posted here in one of the (many!) threads that included a discussion of opening chokes: you can't add the metal back after you've opened the chokes.

[Gerald McPherson]

I have 2 that are choked open and tight. Both shoot great. That is a good combination. I also have 1 that is full and full. I also enjoy shooting straight away targets with it. The targets just turn to dust. I considered opening one barrel. Glad I didn't.

[Scott Barter]

Good grief guys! :)
First off I am not looking to turn targets to dust as I stated, this is for upland bird hunting! I can also match your 35 year’s experience and not on pen raised birds. Trust me, a full choke is not required on Bobwhites!!! Thanks gents!

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Scott, sounds like your gun must have 26" barrels to be under 6 lbs. I have 2 O frames that letter at 6 lbs, both with 26" barrels. Both came out of georgia so I assume they were quail guns. Both also were ordered with cyl/mod chokes. I would not care for IC/F on a quail gun either. My favorite choke combo is cyl/cyl. I hunt mostly grouse over my setters. I do have a couple cyl/F guns that I hunt with, but wish that second barrel was either IC or mod.
My grouse guns for many years were a VH 16 1 frame Parker and a Fox Sterlingworth 16. Both had 28" M/F chokes, and what the hell does a grouse hunter need that for. The guy I bought them from had an IC reamer, so I had both guns opened up to IC in each barrel. No real regrets on that, and still have both of them .My favorite Parker is a VHE 20 that someone wacked 1 1/2" off to 26 1/2" and very open choked. Basically, I'm saying that if this gun turns your crank and you want to make it a bonifide quail killer, its your gun . Its probably not really a collectors item, just a solid shooter. Keep us posted and show us some pictures.

[Scott Barter]

Hi Harold,
I reweighed it as I was wondering myself. (Bathroom scale :)
It is more like 6.2 pounds but it does have 28 inch tubes. My thoughts exactly
As far as opening the barrels. First of all it has a pad so it’s not original. Secondly it is a vh.
It it were a mint, all original DHE or something I would certainly leave it alone.
I do hunt quail, and had a good day over in Oregon a week ago with my fox 16. I have trouble with that gun however as it has so much drop! Plus I’m cross eyed dominant so I’ve got that going for me too! :)
Primarily out here it is chukars and Huns. I hunt Montana too which is magic for pheasants and sharp tails. A lightweight 16 with IC/Mod is just the ticket! We have blues and ruffs here too but don’t hunt them too often. by the way I shot a Bighorn Sheep in Colorado this year and that was an amazing experience, but cut into my bird hunting time. That little 20VHE is probably the best choice for flushing grouse!

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Yeah, I understand the cross dominance problem--I'm an eye doctor. My son has the same problem. I also shoot a GH 16 O frame damascus that had 1 inch of barrel cut off to 27" before I bought it. It's kind of a loose mod/tight mod now, makes a good pheasant gun. I can/do reload alot and can make spreaders, but rarely mess with them except for in my Lefever 16 ga choked F/F weighing 6 lbs 3 oz. Sounds like you have a great little gun there.

[Scott Barter]

Harold sounds like your a 16 gauge junkie too! My fav shotgun no question. I also have an early browning superposed and early Merkel 200 E both in 20 gauge. I’ve got a little Winchester 42 410 as well to round things out. Almost forgot I’ve got a Rizzini 16 O/U as well. Love them all but this Parker is just so slim and lively. Can’t wait to get out with it.

[Garry L Gordon]

Good grief guys! :)
First off I am not looking to turn targets to dust as I stated, this is for upland bird hunting! I can also match your 35 year’s experience and not on pen raised birds. Trust me, a full choke is not required on Bobwhites!!! Thanks gents!

Sorry, Scott, if my comment upset you. It was not my intention. I meant it when I wrote, "You know your shooting and your needs best." I agree with you that a full choke is not required to take a Bobwhite. Having never shot at pen raised birds except when planted for training purposes, like you, over time I have developed my prejudices about what works best for wild birds where I hunt them. In the end, my experience is not yours. Having said this, I must admit that over time I've come to appreciate originality in vintage guns, but that's my bias, and may not be yours.

[Bill Quillen]

I am new to this forum and new to Parker guns. Have been helping a friend try to evaluate several damascus barreled Parker’s. I have been reading up history and nomenclature and have taken one apart after studying several tutorials as it has an internal crack in the head of the stock.
This gun is a 16 ga.DH with 26 inch twist barrels on an O size frame and weighs 6# 1oz. . Serial 137016 which I take to be 1905. Case colors are worn somewhat and wood has a few dings but looks to be original. The puzzling thing is the barrels . They are pristine inside and out.I do not know Parker’s well but have seen a lot of old guns pitted and rusted.
My question is, how much does twist steel barrels effect price. This would be a magnificent field gun if proper ammunition could be found.I know there is no long distance answer as to how there barrels came down 116 years and look new.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Sounds like a nice gun Bill, my 1905 made DHE 16 O frame weighs 6 lbs even with 26" fluid Titanic barrels. Perhaps it was well taken care of, or perhaps the bores were reamed to remove pitting, in which case the minimum wall thickness is important.

[Dean Romig]

Likely the barrels are replacements. No D grade Parkers, that we know of, were ever made with Twist barrels. They were either Damascus Steel or Titanic Steel.






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[Bill Quillen]

Thanks Dean Romig for the reply, the barrels are serial numbered to the gun . So parker did make twist barrels for this model in this size and date.
Thanks Harold Pickens for your reply. I do not have a bore or chamber gauge ,but will have the barrels checked to determine if they have been altered in any way.
Does anyone have an opinion as to valuing a sound gun with twist barrels. I have associated twist barrels as a step between Damascus and fluid steel.

[Dean Romig]

I think before anyone can actually assign a value to your Parker you’ll need to ascertain that Parker Bros. actually did fit those Twist barrels to it. The fact that the serial number on the barrel lug matches the number on the water table isn’t proof of anything.

Send for a PGCA research letter to discover if there are any records that might address that very unusual set of barrels on your D.






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[Bob Jurewicz]

The serialization book list that serial number as a P grade.
Bob Jurewicz

[Dean Romig]

Dean, I emailed pics to you. If you want pics of the inside of the frame and barrel flats, Ill take some more and send.


The long-awaited pictures of Allen's 16 0-frame.


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[Bob Jurewicz]

First blood with my newest 16 0 frame.
Bob Jurewicz

[Dean Romig]

A really sweet gun Bob!





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[MattHaney]

I had a very pleasant round of clays on Sunday with a 16ga 0 frame. That was a lot fun.

[William McClintock]

I have 1 DH Parker in 16 gauge on a "O" frame. An 1899 gun with 28 inch damascus barrels that weighs in at 6 pounds and a couple oz. The Parker letter states it was ordered by DuBray for some one in western PA.

The gun is is reasonable shape; I do shoot it with RST shells, it has been gone over and refreshed by Dewey Vicknair.

https://flic.kr/p/GFa9rz

[Mark Ray]

GH 16, 0 frame, sent back to Parker about the 5th year of its life for a refresh and restock with SSBP. Damascus 28 “, cyl and imp.

[Keith Doty]

I'm like'en that 3#2 rough barrel weight, outta be a quail buster with those chokes. What's it weigh Mark?

[Mark Ray]

The gun is dead on 6 lbs. hammered the doves with it this year!

[Harold Lee Pickens]

My GH 16 O frame began life with 28" barrels, but story goes it ws knocked over, denting the muzzle, so is now 27". It's unstruck barrel wt is 3-4, and I believe it weighs 6lbs 3 oz now. I shoot it alot on pheasants. The engraving sure not as sharp as yours.

[Bill Murphy]

My little #0 frame GHE 16 is a Damascus three barrel set, 24", 28", and 30". It letters with 26" barrels, so once was a four barrel set. So hard to keep all those barrels together.

[Keith Doty]

Wow, a gun for all seasons.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

bill, were all the other barrels orphan barrels that you had fitted to the gun? That's a great little combo

[Dean Romig]

I have a Damascus GH sixteen on the 0-frame with a very nice set of 26” barrels. This gun has the finest engraving of any GH I have ever seen. Several years ago I bought a beautiful all original orphaned set of 26” 20 gauge Damascus barrels. I’ll have them professionally fitted to my GH for a two gauge set.

After I have this 20 gauge set fitted to it Ivwill number these barrels to this gun as it is the only gun they will fit.





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[Mills Morrison]

I have a GH 16 0 frame with uncut 26 inch barrels. It needs a stock, a few parts and has a bad bulge near one chamber. It may become a 28 gauge with Briley tubes, but I am determined to bring it back

[Rick Roemer]

I have a DH 0 frame 16 with 28 inch barrels. Semi pistol grip stock. Letters with a second set of 20 gauge barrels.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I have one other O frame 16, a DHE with 26" cyl/mod that weighs exactly 6lbs'.
I need to shoot it more.

[Dean Romig]

.... that or sell it Harold. :whistle:





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[Mark Ray]

Wow...Harold, love that gun!!