1900 Remington at Rock Mountain

[Frank Srebro]

Believe it or not our big December 17 snowfall is mosty gone due to a short warm spell, sun and really heavy rains. Today my gang was at the Rock - cold and windy - and one of our guys brought a decent Remington 1900, actually his second time shooting it over the last week though he bought it some 30 years ago but unfired since then. Perfect bores and chokes about Full and I-Mod using a dime coin today. Joe has also been shooting a 1889 Rem hammer gun quite a bit of late. Both Remmies have composite barrels. Another one of his scores back in the old days is a 32" 12-gauge Sterly and he had her out back in October. He's become quite a good SxS shot and we'll start seeing him at vintage SxS events here in PA. Last pic shows 2 of the 3 pump guns also out today. Net 4 of the 7 guns were atypical on a modern sporting clays course at least hereabouts. :)

[Randy G Roberts]

Frank that's a perfect gun for those aspirins coming off the top of the mountain that Mike likes to throw.

[jefferyconnor]

Those Remingtons are mechanically appealing guns to me. They have an understated rock solid quality to them.

[Brian Dudley]

That is actually a model 1894. They are real workhorses.

[Jack Huber]

That is actually a model 1894.
I was going to say the same thing - the 1894 has the Purdy-type fastener on the forearm. The Model 1900 Remington had a snap-on forearm.

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks gents, I sorta picked up the same info on another forum but not definitively as yet. A SxS enthusiast identified it as a 1900 and that's what Joe told me. I'll tell him it's a 1894 next time we shoot together.

[Brian Dudley]

Mechanically they are the same. The later 1900 had a snap-on forend and was not as finely finished of a gun.

[jefferyconnor]

I've read that the very last ones had 4 bites. Interesting engineering, one bolt is described as a split lock. Parkers inside are consistently nicely made, I kind of suspect Remingtons might be close or equal. I wonder if anyone knows how they compared in cost in 1909 to Parkers?

[Jack Huber]

Parkers inside are consistently nicely made, I kind of suspect Remingtons might be close or equal. I wonder if anyone knows how they compared in cost in 1909 to Parkers?
As far as the lower grades are concerned, Remingtons were priced in about the same range as Parkers.

Remington discontinued all their double guns in 1910, and their catalogue that year listed the Model 1900 (the lowest priced gun) starting at $30 and the better grade 1894 starting at $45. However, it was sometimes possible to find the Remingtons at a discount - for example, the 1908 Sears catalogue offered the Model 1900 for $23.50.

Compare this with the initial price for a Parker Trojan of $25.50 in 1912 and the VH for $34.50 that same year. I've heard it said that Parker was losing money selling Trojans for $25.50 and they soon had to increase the price.

The Remingtons were good guns, and I own several Model 1894s and 1900s, but I don't think the workmanship measures up to Parker standards.

[jefferyconnor]

Thanks, Jack! I've had a AE 1894 in hand but I returned it due to a oval/dented muzzle so I never got to look inside it. Parkers are Parkers and always have smooth triggers and nicely fitted parts, inside and out.

[Dave Noreen]

The Remington Hammerless Doubles had three styles of barrel lugs over time. Some of the early guns had the typical Purdey double under-bolts as my 1895 vintage BE-Grade --

91498

Charles Semmer in his book Remington Double Shotguns called these "bridge frame guns."

Most had the web between the lugs making the forward bite into two smaller bites --

91499

Some of the late K-quality guns eliminated the forward bite altogether. My 1909 vintage KE-Grade 16-gauge --

91500

I have recorded an 1898 vintage 10-gauge with this style lug and Remington Steel barrels, making it an AER-grade, which I suspect was rebarreled at some point in time.

[Dave Noreen]

Here are the List Prices from the second 1901 Remington Arms Co. catalog --

K - $35.00
KED - $45.00
A - & AR - $45.00
AE - & AER- $50.00
AO - $60.00
AEO - $65.00
B - $60.00
BO - $75.00
BE - $65.00
BEO - $80.00
C - & CO - $90.00
CE - & CEO - $95.00
D - & DO - $150.00
DE - & DEO - $155.00
E - & EO - $225.00
EE - & EEO - $230.00

In 1902 Remington Arms Co. added their Remington Special at $750.00

In the 1901 Parker Bros. catalog that introduces ejectors (which Remington had from 1894 ) the list prices are --

VH - $50.00
VHE - $75.00
PH - $65.00
PHE - $90.00
GH - $80.00
GHE - $105.00
DH - $100.00
DHE - $125.00
CH - $150.00
CHE - $175.00
BH - $200.00
BHE - $225.00
AH - $300.00
AHE - $325.00
AAH - $400.00
AAHE - $425.00
A1 Special - $500
A1 Special Ejector - $525

Parker Bros. ejectors cost five times more than Remington ejectors!

[jefferyconnor]

Interesting! It looks like the upgrade to ejectors was $25 for Parker and $5 for Remington. Anyone have thoughts as to why Parker ejectors cost so much more? It seems like in the middle grades a CEO was close to a GHE in price. It sure seems like middle grade Remingtons are scarcer on the online sites compared to Parkers. I see a lot more GH/GHEs offered for sale than CE/CEOs. By the way, is that an EEO in the middle picture of your previous post?

[Dave Noreen]

There were some differences in the lines. Remington never offered one of their Remington Hammerless Doubles with Twist barrels. From the lowest grade they started with two-stripe Damascus barrels. Remington also didn't go in for the variety of fanciful names for their steel barrels. Remington only made some 41194 of their "graded guns" A- to EEO-Grade (aka Model 1894) but they made 98508 of their K-quality guns (aka Model 1900), their Trojan equivalent, and it was offered with ejectors and a choice of barrel material. In the first three years of production the Remington ejector guns were much more expensive, $22.50 extra. By 1897 Remington must have devised the right jigs and fixtures to drop the price of ejectors to $5 extra. 1897 was a pivotal year, by the April catalog Remington introduced their steel barrels and by the October catalog they added the 16-gauge to the previously offered 10- and 12-gauges.

When Parker Bros. introduced their hammerless double, the lowest grade it was offered in was Grade 2, the $80 Quality GH or $85 Quality EH in 10-gauge. Remington didn't charge extra for a 10-gauge in their lower grades as the Brothers P did.

In their 17 years of hammerless double gun production Remington Arms Co. produced 139702 hammerless doubles and during that time they also produced 105382 hammer doubles, or more guns than Parker produced from 1866 to 1942.

The gun in the middle picture above is an EEO-Grade, not mine sad to say.

[Craig Larter]

The RAS/Model 11 must have been the death knoll for the Remington SxS's.

[Dave Noreen]

That is certainly the truth Craig. Remington was on a roll in 1907, while our man Ansley was struggling to get the A.H. Fox Gun Co. going in their new digs on North 18th Street at Windrim Avenue. For the first part of the year Remington flooded the sporting press with ads hailing their pro William Heer's high average for 1906 with a pair of their hammerless doubles --

91576

Then in June, J.J. Blanks won the big one with the Remington Autoloading Shotgun --

91578

91579

Then Fred Harlow did it again with the RAS in 1908.

In February 1910 Remington closed a deal with Norvell Shapliegh Hardware Co. of St Louis to sell them their entire inventory of break-action guns and Remington went into the future with their John M. Browning designed autoloader and their John D. Pedersen designed pump which W.E. Phillips used to win the 1912 GAH.

[Craig Larter]

The early RAS guns in grade 5 and 6 were beautifully engraved, but they get little respect from the collector community. I hate to admit it but from a marketing standpoint Remington made the correct choice, Fox, Parker, Lefever and Smith were all destined for the dustpan of history after JM Browning designed the RAS.

[Brian Dudley]

Many of the Remington 1894s and even 1900s you will find are fitted with ejectors. The low price adder explains it.

[jefferyconnor]

I kind of wonder about that about the M11 being the end of doubles. Even Remington brought out the 32 and bought Parker within 25 years of the decision to discontinue doubles. Remington probably actually lost tens of thousands of sales by this decision. There was the depression, of course. Yet many makers sold a lot of doubles in competition with the autos and pumps in the interwar period, despite the depression. Didn't LC Smith have robust sales even after WW II? Stevens probably sold more doubles after WW II than before WW II. For practical hunting guns I think doubles are the best option, especially because repeaters are plugged at three anyway. I wonder if American gunmakers, besides Stevens missed a chance to keep selling doubles after WW II.

[Dave Noreen]

From its introduction in 1905 to WW-II Remington produced half a million 12-gauge RAS/Model 11s plus another 15500 Sportsman before they started serial numbering them along with the Model 11s. Meanwhile Parker Bros. produced about 112000 guns. Winchester produced their first million Model 12s along with several hundred thousand Model 97s. All those Fox Model B and Stevens doubles Savage produced after WW-II are a drop in the bucket when compared with the many millions of Remington Model 870s, Model 11-48/Sportsman-48, Sportsman-58 and Model 1100 autoloaders.

[jefferyconnor]

From its introduction in 1905 to WW-II Remington produced half a million 12-gauge RAS/Model 11s plus another 15500 Sportsman before they started serial numbering them along with the Model 11s. Meanwhile Parker Bros. produced about 112000 guns. Winchester produced their first million Model 12s along with several hundred thousand Model 97s. All those Fox Model B and Stevens doubles Savage produced after WW-II are a drop in the bucket when compared with the many millions of Remington Model 870s, Model 11-48/Sportsman-48, Sportsman-58 and Model 1100 autoloaders.

That makes sense, Researcher, doubles sure were outsold in that time period! I wonder if Remington lost money in the end buying Parker?

[Jack Huber]

I wonder if Remington lost money in the end buying Parker?
To quote The Parker Story (page 163), "it is clear that this (Remington's acquisition of Parker) was not a wise move from a financial standpoint."
Remington paid over $750,000 just for the right to make Parker guns. During the seven years of production they produced a little over 6200 guns. They were plagued by high production costs and a dwindling market for high-quality doubles.

[jefferyconnor]

To quote The Parker Story (page 163), "it is clear that this (Remington's acquisition of Parker) was not a wise move from a financial standpoint."
Remington paid over $750,000 just for the right to make Parker guns. During the seven years of production they produced a little over 6200 guns. They were plagued by high production costs and a dwindling market for high-quality doubles.

I wonder if that 6,400 includes both Meriden and Ilion production?

[Jack Huber]

I wonder if that 6,400 includes both Meriden and Ilion production?
According to The Parker Story, the total Remington production of Parker guns was 6,224: 4,629 in Meriden and 1,595 in Ilion.

[Dave Noreen]

Sales of luxury items, like Parker Bros. shotguns, tanked after late 1929. I find the transition covers guns in the 234xxx, 235xxx and 236xxx range. My 20-gauge VH 235178 was Made and shipped in the fall of 1930. I find some guns in the 234xxx range with the PARKER GUN WORKS OVERLOAD PROVED stamping and find guns in the very high 236xxx range with the PARKER BROS. OVERLOAD PROVED stamp, one of which does have an AD (A = March D = 1935) Remington date code?!?

The Parker Story states "the first gun placed in production under Remington management was 236531, a VH grade 28-gauge shotgun with 26-inch barrels. There were lower numbered guns, both finished and unfinished, in Parker Brothers inventory when Remington took over, but 236531 was the first serial number assigned under Remington management." The Remington Parkers chapter ends with "Remington produced a total of 6,224 Parker guns, 4,629 in Meriden and 1,595 in Ilion."

[Pete Lester]

The Remingtons were good guns, and I own several Model 1894s and 1900s, but I don't think the workmanship measures up to Parker standards.

Are you familiar with the graded 1894's? The workmanship is outstanding and it could be argued the engraving is better i.e. no flying turnips.

[Jack Huber]

Are you familiar with the graded 1894's? The workmanship is outstanding and it could be argued the engraving is better i.e. no flying turnips.
No, I'm not. Except for one Remington BE grade 1894, my experience is limited to the 1900 K grades and 1894 A grades.
I was comparing my K grade Remingtons to my Parker Trojans and my A grade Remingtons to my VH Parkers. While the Remingtons were very good guns, I feel that the Parkers were built better in the lower grades. There was almost no engraving on those models, so there was nothing to compare in that respect.