Frame Size Variants

[Dean Romig]

I opened up my hard copy of Parker Pages Volume 9, Issue 1 (Jan/Feb 2002) and read Austin Hogan's article "How Much Would You Like Your New Parker to Weigh Sir?" and found at the end of his article this Editor's Note:

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[Dean Romig]

Following up my above post, I searched my Parker Pages Digital Archive and read Austin's follow-up article in Parker Pages Vol. 9, Issue 6 (Nov/Dec 2002) where he continues to discuss frame dimensions and frame sizes.
I wonder if Chuck has come across the frame size notations in the Books as Austin suggests.

Further, And understanding that firing pin spacing determines frame size, I wonder if any PGCA Members have founs any anomalies in frame sizes among their Parkers?

[Stan Hillis]

Have you looked at subsequent issues to see if Hogan had an article that included that chart? I don't have Parker Pages going back that far.

Thanks, SRH

[Dean Romig]

Yes in fact, Austin’s charts are included in his follow-up article in the Nov/Dec article.

The $50 expense for the Parker Pages Digital Archive (available from Mike McKinney) is well worth the expense.





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[Brian Dudley]

Yes, Parker “shop language” referred to the frame sizes by the outside breech ball measurements, not the numbers stamped on the barrel lug as we know them today. Chuck will confirm that many of the earlier stock books reference this outside measurement in them for frame size, before the books started being recorded with the more commonly known frame size numbers.

The barrels were marked with frame sizes for easy identification. But the frames were not. So the frames themselves were referred to by the outside breech measurement for size. Of course after finishing and shaping the measurements will vary some.

The weight and balance of a gun can be greatly effected with how much material is removed or left on the frame. Not long ago I had a 2 frame 12g with 32” barrels that was a true “cannon breech” sort of gun. The gun weighed well over 9 lbs. The gun could have easily been built on a 3 frame. But the factory chose a 2 frame. Even when just the back half of the gun was being held, it felt just heavy as hell in the frame. Big breech balls and less filing in the body of the frame.

[Dean Romig]

What say you Chuck?

Can you post a picture(s) of an entry in the ledgers that supports what Austin referenced?





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[Bill Murphy]

I own a #3 frame gun that was referred to as a 2 1/2 in the order. I'm sure there are others that refer to the frame in inches rather than frame number as stamped on the rear lug. Austin clarified that. The authors also referred to a #8 frame gun which later turned out to be a late production eight gauge gun owned by a friend of mine with the gauge stamped on the rear lug. We have learned a lot about frame sizes since the publishing of The Parker Story.

[Brian Dudley]

This has been all discussed previously on the forum too. Chuck had a lot to offer based on the records in those past discussions.

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck, in answer to Dean's request, and without a lot of searching, you could print a copy of the order book entry for Serial Number 125,757, which was ordered as a "2 1/2 frame".

[Dean Romig]

This has been all discussed previously on the forum too. Chuck had a lot to offer based on the records in those past discussions.

Can you link those discussion threads here Brian?





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[Bill Murphy]

I am bringing as many of them as I can find to the top so we can read them again. I have found some comments to be incorrect and some to be correct. One thing is universal. No one who claims to have seen a #8 frame gun has measured the pin separation. In my opinion, all 8 marked hammerless guns are #6 frame and all 8 marked hammer guns are #7 frames.

[Chuck Bishop]

Attached is the entry of a request for a 2 1/2" frame. The stock book entry for this 2 barrel set can barely be read because the ounces is almost unreadable but best I can read is 8 pounds, 4 ounces for 28" barrels and 8 pounds, 7 ounces for the 32" barrels. The requested weight in the order book is 8 pounds 10 ounces. It's a 12 gauge DH.

If the frame size is requested in the order book it's put in the research letter. I've found a way to search for frame size requests in the archived letters. I'll post the S/N of these guns, the requested frame size, and if there is a stock book for these guns, I'll post the weight. It's been a long day so it will give me something to do tomorrow.

[Chuck Bishop]

Since doing the research letters starting in 2012, I've found 4 letters I've done which had the frame size requested in the order book. This does not include the gun in the previous response. Out of the 4, only 1 had the corresponding stock book entry due to missing stock books. There may be a few more that I've done letters on but the search didn't bring them up.

Question, if a 2 1/2 frame is equivalent to a 3 frame, what is a 2 3/8 frame size equivalent to and is a 1 1/2 frame size equivalent to a size 2 frame?

1. S/N 73175 DH 12/30 Damascus 2 bbl set requested weight 7-12 requested frame size 2 3/8. 1892 gun

2. S/N 81588 DH 12/28 Damascus requested weight 7-10 to 7-12 requested frame size 2 3/8. 1895 gun. Stock Book weight 7-12.

3. S/N 121143 CH 12/30 Titanic requested weight 7 pounds requested frame size 1 1/2. 1903 gun

4. S/N 86073 CH 12/28 Bernard requested weight 7 1/4 pounds requested frame size 1 1/2. 1897 gun

[Bill Murphy]

I would think an order book entry for "1 1/2" probably refers to an actual #1 1/2 frame.

[Chuck Bishop]

I was thinking the 1 1/2 frame was introduced later but it looks like the 1 1/2 frame was in existence at the turn of the century.

[Dean Romig]

The Parker frame size designations 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 (simply as sequential numbers) actually have nothing to do with a particular measurement but rather, are frame measurement designation numbers. The frame number designation is a reference to a particular group of common dimensions that are used to attain a well-defined range of gun weight. Consequently, the number 1 1/2 came about because the 1 and 2 were already taken so they had to come up with something in between for a frame size smaller than a 2 frame designation and, in a couple of measurements, larger than the 1 frame designation.

It reminds me of the street address I grew up at.... number 130 and 131 were taken and we were back in between those so my address was 130 1/2.

Similarly, a frame size smaller than the measurements for those of a 1 frame designation was necessary back in the days of the lifters and eventually the 0 frame designation came about after uniformity of measurements was decided upon. (There are a few, a very few, 20 bore lifters with frame measurements and firing pin spacing smaller than those of T/A 20 bore guns bearing the 0 frame designation.) And then came the 00 and 000 frame designations after requirements for such small framed guns became necessary to remain competitive and keep abreast of demand for a lighter 28 bore and then for the .410.

I determined this morning after some tedious measuring and comparing of measurements that my 9+ lb., 10 bore Lifter, No. 5949, which I had believed was a No. 3 frame is actually a No. 2-frame gun.

So as far as my mind and comprehension is concerned I have finally found the 'missing link', the common denominator in my understanding of frame size numbers.


Chuck, I believe, after some measuring, that a 2 3/8 frame is for the No. 2 designation.

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[Bill Murphy]

Dean, what kind of "tedious measurements" were involved in determining that your ten gauge was a #2 frame gun. It's all about the pin separation and that would not require any "tedious" measuring. It is also very clear that what the PB guys described as a 2 3/8 frame was actually a #2 frame. It is all very simple to figure out if you look at the chart on page 527 of The Parker Story. 2 3/8 is a bolster measurement just like the 2 1/2 is a bolster measurement. The explanation of this goes back to the 2013 threads that explain it very clearly.

[Dean Romig]

Sorry Bill, it wasn’t clear to me and when I asked earlier if the measurement was across the face of the bolsters I was answered with “we don’t know if that’s where the measurement was taken.” so along with taking that measurement on several of my 12 and 10 gauge Parkers I also measured from the water table to the center of the firing pin, the width of the beads on the barrel flats, the o.d. Of the individual barrels at the breech, etc. to confirm that the 12 and 10 gauge guns, one of which I thought was on the #3 frame, all conformed to the measurements shown for the #2 frame Parkers.... those are the tedious measurements I took, in addition to the spacing of the firing pins.





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[Bill Murphy]

The pin separation tells the whole story except for the very few exceptions, one of which is in your collection.

[Dean Romig]

The pin separation tells the whole story except for the very few exceptions, one of which is in your collection.

Understood Bill and I agree. I had originally asked the question about the 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 frame sizes that Austin had written about in his articles about gun weights. I know about pin separation quite well but was measuring other dimensions to see if there were any variations from those in The Parker Story. Austin had said there were very tiny, almost insignificant, fractional variations and I simply wanted to know if MY guns would show these tiny variations... and they did.





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[Dean Romig]

Further, the 2 1/4, 2 3/8, and 2 1/2 frame guns alluded to in Austin's article and the recorded data Chuck talks about and posted a picture of are in actuality 2 1/4", 2 3/8" and 2 1/2" measurements across the face of the bolsters.





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