Ithaca Trap

[jefferyconnor]

Does anyone here know anything about the history and making of these post 1948 when the Ithaca doubles were discontinued? I remember requesting a catalog from Ithaca when I was a kid in the 70s and the single barrel trap was still a prestige catalog item then. First off, when did they finally end? Second off, it occurs to me that in a sense, these are the final direct legacy of the American double heritage. What are everyone's thoughts in this regard?

[Bob Jurewicz]

Walt Snyder's book indicates final production in 1980 with #240405737.
In 1969 three (3) numbers were added at the beginning of the usual six (6) number sequence.
This reference also indicates a special order Dollar Grade #240405728 was completed on 1987 for sale at the 1987 Grand.
Bob Jurewicz

[jefferyconnor]

Thanks, Bob. What was annual production like then? Pretty low I imagine.
That catalog I saw would have been in the mid to late 70's. For legacy guns there was also the Winchester 21 which lasted later yet and sort of has never been out of production, although it only goes back to the 30's vs Ithaca goes back to the 1800's.

[Bill Zachow]

My lawyer handled Ithaca’s bankruptcy back in the mid/late 80s. He was paid with the second to last Knick 5E produced. It had hung in the President’s office. He also got one of their special 10 gauge semi autos. Sadly, I sold them both.

[John Davis]

Jeff, are you inquiring about the Ithaca SBT or the side by side?

[jefferyconnor]

SBT, is what I was wondering about. I have the idea from serial number charts that double barrel guns ended in the late 40's. Although, I saw for sale a year or so ago on GI a seller stating a double he had for sale had been made years after that for a company executive, or something like that.

What I was thinking was the fitting and making of the SBT has a lot in common with the making and fitting of the doubles and in a sense was a continuation of that production.

[Dave Noreen]

The engraving log of Bill Mains and Jacqueline Favre who did the engraving from 1971 to the end (240405496 to 240405739) is reproduced in Frank Conley's book The American Single Barrel Trap Gun. There were 228 guns done by them. About fifteen serial numbers were skipped. Either those guns were not built or shipped to other engravers. No guns were built from December 11, 1973 to May 21, 1975. The last gun on their list is 240405739, shipped back to Ithaca 6-9-82, a No. 5E.

To my eye the Knick is pretty simple and I'd think the parts could be belched out by a CNC machine, and with a little hand work on the sear notch, they could be made pretty cheap. But then Ljutics don't come cheap and they look like they were made in someone's basement to me.

[jefferyconnor]

Researcher, thanks! So that averages about 20 a year through the 70s. That makes a late gun pretty tough to find. Do you happen to have a price sheet? Was the late engraving in the original Ithaca style? My recollection is the catalog depicted fancy engraved guns only with gold birds and figured wood. Was it 5E only or did they offer other grades?

[Dave Noreen]

The Last No. 4E was 240405695 in late 1976 early 1977. From then to end of production the only offered the No. 5E and the Dollar Grades -- first $5000, the $6500 and finally with the Jimmy Carter inflation just Dollar Grade.

From some of my old catalogs --

1959-60 --

No. 4E $525
No. 5E $675
No. 7E $1750
$2500 Grade

1963 same

1966 --

No. 4E
No. 5E
$3000 Grade
Neither of the price lists with this catalog give Knick prices. My 1967 price list says "Custom Made, write for prices."

1972 Catalog --

No. 4E $1750
No. 5E $2500
$4500 Grade

1974 Catalog --

No. 4E $2250
No. 5E $3000
$5000 Grade

1975 Catalog --

No. 4E $2500
No. 5E $3500
$5000 Grade

1976 Catalog --

No. 4E $3000
No. 5E $4000
$5000 Grade

1977 Catalog --

No. 5E $4000
$5000 Grade

1979 Catalog --

No. 5E $5000
$6500 Grade

I suspect from here on they weren't actually accepting any orders. Just like Ithaca Gun Co., Inc. kept showing the NID in their catalogs to 1955 though the last they made were in 1948.

December 1, 1984 Price List --

No. 5E $7000
Dollar Grade $9700

December 1, 1985 Price List --

No. 5E $7000
Dollar Grade $9700

1988 Catalog --

Devotes a page and a half to the No. 5E and Dollar Grade but doesn't give prices.

[jefferyconnor]

I am probably remembering that 1977 or 1978 catalog, Researcher. I remember looking through it with such fond memories.
I wonder, I bet Ithaca would have made the guns, or so I hope in the 48-55 and 83-88 periods? Maybe not a single person ordered them then? They were really expensive for a working person and I suppose wealthy people at that point were moving past being interested in hunting, fishing, and shooting. Lastly, thanks for the chart, it's interesting to see the change from the early sixties to the early seventies, over three times the cost!

[Bill Murphy]

The last small group of Knicks was built for and sold by Bill Jaqua if I remember correctly. Catalog listing and actual production is sometimes miles apart. Recently, a $5000 grade was sold at one of the bigger auctions for a very low price. I never did look at the listing or the pictures to see if I missed "something".

[John Dallas]

Bill Jaqua was a very creative marketer.

What ever became of the "Little Persuader" which he bought at auction and was featured on the front page of the WSJ? That article legitimized gun purchases as an acceptable investment alternative. My understanding is that he sold that gun shortly after buying it for about a 25% premium. And what about the matched sets of English Best Guns he commissioned with the elaborate display cases?

[George Davis]

Just received email the first batch of Ithaca Letters are going out by the end of the year from the Cody Museum. I've requested letter on a very early SBT.

[Bill Murphy]

A sign of the times is comparing Bill Jaqua's little collection of small bore Purdeys with the dozens of small bore Purdeys that Robert Petersen threw on the market when he passed away. "What's up with that?"

[jefferyconnor]

I new Bill back in the 60s and 70s up to the time He moved to Las Vegas. He worked at a gun shop called G&R Tackle. He was a very nice guy. I watched him many times as He engraved many fine guns. He also had a line of custom high quality knives. Harry

I wonder how Ithaca found him, Harry? I suppose at some point, only making twenty guns a year, having an in-house engraver didn't make sense. Did he ever discuss how he came to work for Ithaca with you?

[Bill Murphy]

I was manning my tables at the Easton, Maryland gun show many years ago, a bunch of nice side by sides on the tables. An older gentleman and a companion hung out in front of the tables showing much interest. One man asked about one of my guns and I handed it to him to examine. His comments lead me to say, "You seem to know a bit about these guns. My name is Bill Murphy." He replied, "I know a little, and like them a lot. My name is Bill Jaqua, glad to meet you, Bill."

[George Davis]

Received my Ithaca Letter from the Cody Museum:

Ithaca SBT was shipped on June 10, 1910 to C. T. Summerson at Nixon Hotel, Butler Pennsylvania.

I'll do research on C. T. Summerson tomorrow.

[Dave Noreen]

That date doesn't sound right. I was under the impression the Ithaca SBT came out in 1915.

[George Davis]

I reviewed the letter and it say 1910.

[George Davis]

To your point researcher something is concerning about the the 1910 date, I reviewed Walt Snyder's Ithaca Guns and Frank Conley's The American Single Barrel Trap books and neither had Ithaca SBT available in 1910. Synder's Book has my gun as 1916 production. Ithaca started developing the SBT in 1910-1911 and they were available in 1914 and in their 1915 catalog.
I'll reach-out to the Cody Museum after the new year and try and get a clarification. Thank you.

[Bill Murphy]

Summerson was an Ithaca factory representative. Many Ithaca orders, and consequently, Ithaca letters, will include his name. As I recall, he wrote the John Phillip Sousa order.

[Randy Davis]

I would guess someone at Cody made an error... Should be later.

Trap3

[George Davis]

Received email from the Cody Museum concerning the June, 10,1910 date of my SBT. It was a simple typing error and the correct date is June 10,1919 with new letter being processed. I'm really impressed with the Cody Staff and their quick response, great example of customer service!

PS: currently work on letter for a Fox.

[Larry Stauch]

Talk about a super nice gun at a good price.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/ithaca-single-barrel-trap-shotguns/ithaca-single-barrel-trap-5-e-grade-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=102843142

[Arthur Shaffer]

Yes. He worked for G&R at that time .Ithaca put out their engraving by bid. The owner of the gun shop was lowest bidder and got the contract.The knive part of G&R was called Heritage Knives and Bill did the engraveing on them. Harry

Bill died relatively recently. The official biography by his family is an interesting read. Google his name.

It is my understanding he also did the work on the later Ithaca double revival. He was a fixture on the trapshooting circuit and best known there. He had a trailer equipped for engraving and did onsite work at shoots. One of his specialties was custom grip caps which he could turn out quickly. He was trained as a goldsmith and often included it with his engraving. I have a very early Beretta S2 I purchased from a member here that had very nice and tasteful gold work added to the original engraving pattern to enhance it. The rest of the gun was refurbished. It is stunning work and one of the best handling game guns I have ever used.