Favorite scene engraving

[jefferyconnor]

This is a Baker Paragon which engraved is a style I like better than any: not just covered with fine scrollwork I can't see without reading glasses. An actual scene with restrained scrollwork on the edges. I like a lower percentage of scroll coverage that is bold combined with vibrant and strong images. Plus, dogs and birds that look realistic. The front English Setter, in particular has poised, latent energy in the depiction.
What say you?
Does anyone have guns with pictures they can post with scene engraving that they like?

[Dave Noreen]

Those, very likely Frank Mason, dogs on that Baker Paragon are some of the best.

I've always liked this rather cartoonish pigeon shooting scene on the Baltimore Arms Co. Trap Gun --

90464

[Jeff Kuss]

Jeffery.
Do a search on this site Who let out the dogs. I think you will see that we have explored this topic in the past.

[jefferyconnor]

Researcher, that's a lively scene, thanks!

[Dean Romig]

Pictures and articles of several Parker Bros. hammer guns have been published in Parker Pages in years past of some very interestingly engraved guns. Guns like the "Cow Gun", and the "Chicken Thief Gun" submitted by Gary Carmichael, the "Trap Shoot Gun" submitted by Dave Suponski just a couple of years ago. These are wonderful guns and the engraving on them is very cartoonish but interestingly humorous at the same time.





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[Greg Baehman]

For somewhat selfish reasons, this is my favorite game scene, as I designed it and requested engraver Bob Strosin to engrave it:

[jefferyconnor]

For somewhat selfish reasons, this is my favorite game scene, as I designed it and requested engraver Bob Strosin to engrave it:

That is a great scene! It captures a moment of energy and action, the fox twisting in his strike.

Your picture eminds me of an event I saw: I was fishing with bobber and minnow bait one time and I kept getting my bait robbed, as it turns out by a muskrat. Moments later, the muskrat jumped out of the water straight up and a loon chased it straight up out of the water. For a moment, those two resembled your scene here. Then, splash, then splash again. I was about as stunned as when you almost step on a grouse before they jump.

Also, I like the bold scrollwork and your design, it's a nice touch that the animals are in the foreground of the scrollwork.

[Jay Gardner]

This is a Baker Paragon which engraved is a style I like better than any: not just covered with fine scrollwork I can't see without reading glasses. An actual scene with restrained scrollwork on the edges. I like a lower percentage of scroll coverage that is bold combined with vibrant and strong images. Plus, dogs and birds that look realistic. The front English Setter, in particular has poised, latent energy in the depiction.
What say you?
Does anyone have guns with pictures they can post with scene engraving that they like?

That's beautiful work.

[Greg Baehman]

That is a great scene! It captures a moment of energy and action, the fox twisting in his strike.

Also, I like the bold scrollwork and your design, it's a nice touch that the animals are in the foreground of the scrollwork.

Thank you Jeff, but I can't take credit for the design of the scrollwork as it's of Bob Strosin's own design and what he call his "house scroll".

It's quite perceptive of you noticing the game scene appearing to be in the foreground, it was intended to add depth. I asked Bob Strosin to allow the game scene engraving to spill over his border lines. You can see that also on the sides of the frame of this Fox where a feather, a foot or floral leaves spill over a bit to bring depth to the scenes. In an effort to eliminate a static look to the games scenes, I requested he engrave images that depict movement. The direction of the birds, the barrel wedge engraving extending forward of the knuckle and the grain flow of the wood were all chosen and designed to lead the viewer's eyes out the business end of the gun and beyond.

"It's the itty bitty details that make the big, big difference."

[Mills Morrison]

Lefevers and LC Smiths lead the pack in engraving.

[Jay Gardner]

Lefevers and LC Smiths lead the pack in engraving.

Agree 100%. Nothing better than the engraving on a Grade 5/Crown.

[charlie cleveland]

I agree with you mills.........charlie

[Randy G Roberts]

Agree 100%. Nothing better than the engraving on a Grade 5/Crown.

One of my all-time favorites as well Jay. This is a 32" VR fully optioned 20.

[jefferyconnor]

My Lefever EE has nice engraving and the engineering and frame sculpturing design are the best. It's my favorite gun and the last one I'll part with. Yet I believe the Baker has better engraving, livelier and the figures and scene aren't restrained by an oval.

[jefferyconnor]

One of my all-time favorites as well Jay. This is a 32" VR fully optioned 20.

Beautiful engraving! Are the dogs full relief? Or cut in as line drawings?

[Nick de Guerre]

Jeffrey C,

Early Paragons are wonderful guns. I have seen both a DeLuxe and an Excellencia that would make you cry, they were so detailed. The DeLuxe was signed by Mason...I haven't seen one since, sadly.

NDG

[jefferyconnor]

Jeffrey C,

Early Paragons are wonderful guns. I have seen both a DeLuxe and an Excellencia that would make you cry, they were so detailed. The DeLuxe was signed by Mason...I haven't seen one since, sadly.

NDG

I would love to see pictures of the engraving of those two models! Does anyone here happen to have one?

[Randy G Roberts]

Beautiful engraving! Are the dogs full relief? Or cut in as line drawings?

Jeffery they are not relief style.

[Nick de Guerre]

I would love to see pictures of the engraving of those two models! Does anyone here happen to have one?

I realize I said Excellentia, I had W&C Scott on the brain when I said that. I'm forgetting at the moment what the other Baker grade name was...a step below DeLuxe. The gentleman who owned it asserted it was even rarer than the DeLuxe, but I wouldn't know.

Daryl H. could probably riff on Baker better than anybody...perhaps he'll chime in.

NDG

[Jay Gardner]

Beautiful engraving! Are the dogs full relief? Or cut in as line drawings?

The entire scene is relief engraving. And the more wear, the better it looks because the deep background doesn’t have nearly the exposure to handling. The dogs, the trees, the fences, the rocks. Now,
Some guns have deeper engraving than others but I’ve never seen a 5 or a Crown that didn’t look realistic. And the dogs actually look like dogs, not cartoon characters scratched out on a piece of scrap paper over beers at a bar.

[Jay Gardner]

My Lefever EE has nice engraving and the engineering and frame sculpturing design are the best. It's my favorite gun and the last one I'll part with. Yet I believe the Baker has better engraving, livelier and the figures and scene aren't restrained by an oval.

There seems to be a consensus who did the best engraving for LeFever, who was it?

[Dave Noreen]

Lefevers and LC Smiths lead the pack in engraving.

Can only buy into half of that statement!!

[Larry Frey]

I love these threads that show different engraving styles and agree the Lefever's had some of the best dog scenes of any American maker. I have shown this gun before but for those that may have missed it this CHE had one of my all time favorite deep relief scenes. The sides were cut in the same deep fashion.

[Dean Romig]

edit

[Dave Noreen]

There seems to be a consensus who did the best engraving for LeFever, who was it?

Being in Syracuse, New York, a lot of the Lefever engraving was likely done by Spangler and members of the Glahn family.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27794&highlight=Glahn

[Randy G Roberts]

I love these threads that show different engraving styles and agree the Lefever's had some of the best dog scenes of any American maker. I have shown this gun before but for those that may have missed it this CHE had one of my all time favorite deep relief scenes. The sides were cut in the same deep fashion.

Oh my Larry, that is spectacular !

[James Brown]

I think this one is nice. Jbrown

[Dean Romig]

.410 James?





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[Jay Gardner]

Beautiful engraving! Are the dogs full relief? Or cut in as line drawings?

https://i.imgur.com/J1a57Uhl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eoq22gzl.jpg

[jefferyconnor]

I think this one is nice. Jbrown

Wow, that is nice!

Does anyone know what was the equivalent Parker and Lefever grade compared to a Crown LC Smith in cost in 1915 or so? I remember seeing a chart on the Baker website at one time that showed all the classic maker's original cost by grade in a chart.

[James Brown]

Apologize Mr. Romig, had to go back in courtroom. Yes, .410. Jbrown

[Dave Noreen]

I have a 1906 William Read & Sons catalog that gives the actual net selling prices instead of the much higher "list prices" that the companies put in their retail catalogs. Unfortunately it doesn't give L.C. Smiths in the higher grades. What I can produce --

Remington CEO-Grade..................$95.00
Parker Bros. Quality DHE...............$93.75
Lefever Arms Quality DE................$98.00
L.C. Smith Quality 3E....................$90.00

No Fox, Ithaca or Baker in the $90 price range.

[jefferyconnor]

I have a 1906 William Read & Sons catalog that gives the actual net selling prices instead of the much higher "list prices" that the companies put in their retail catalogs. Unfortunately it doesn't give L.C. Smiths in the higher grades. What I can produce --

Remington CEO-Grade..................$95.00
Parker Bros. Quality DHE...............$93.75
Lefever Arms Quality DE................$98.00
L.C. Smith Quality 3E....................$90.00

No Fox, Ithaca or Baker in the $90 price range.

Thanks! Does it show where the Baker Paragon falls? Below that price level?

[Rino Grassa]

Here is an LC Smith Quality 3

[Wayne Owens]

Here is a list of pricing for most doubles I have.

[jefferyconnor]

Here is a list of pricing for most doubles I have.

Thanks! That is a useful chart, it seems like there is a lack of direct crossover between brands in a lot of cases.

[Daryl Hallquist]

The chart is a fun item. The first one was developed by Don Hardin in the 1972 American Rifleman. Researcher is right. List prices, selling prices, selling prices for cash, and year often produced different prices for the same models. Don Hardin recently passed away and his article comparing various makers started it all for me.

Frank Mason was the Baker factory engraver for a decade or more, ending in about 1910. As has been pointed out, his dog work was very fine. The Paragon picture at the beginning of this thread is actually a Special Paragon. This was a Grade introduced in the early 1900s which was a step above a Paragon.

[Nick de Guerre]

Thx for jumping in Daryl...

Is the Special Paragon marked as such? And what hallmarks distinguish it? Two dogs per side?

NDG

[Daryl Hallquist]

No, during the period of the Special Paragon the high grade guns were not marked as to grade. The Special Paragon had differences from the Paragon according to the catalogs and advertisements. The Special Paragon had a point pattern checkering, the single animal on the front end of the sideplate, the Baker name on the frame below the front end of the sideplate and a bit more engraving compared to Paragons of the same period. Wood on the Special Paragon was said to be an upgrade, but it is hard to distinguish wood quality between the grades. All , of course, were European walnut. Later, in the 700 or 800 serial number range, Baker again started marking the grade on the gun. Not sure why this change went either way.

Attached is a De Luxe quality gun, signed by Frank Mason.

https://i.imgur.com/b5QAm9C.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fQDe21x.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6FaS3Qr.jpg

[charlie cleveland]

wow...wow wow.....charlie

[Jim McKee]

Merkel 302 made in 1953

[Nick de Guerre]

Just...lovely.

[jefferyconnor]

[QUOTE=Daryl Hallquist;317555]No, during the period of the Special Paragon the high grade guns were not marked as to grade. The Special Paragon had differences from the Paragon according to the catalogs and advertisements. The Special Paragon had a point pattern checkering, the single animal on the front end of the sideplate, the Baker name on the frame below the front end of the sideplate and a bit more engraving compared to Paragons of the same period. Wood on the Special Paragon was said to be an upgrade, but it is hard to distinguish wood quality between the grades. All , of course, were European walnut. Later, in the 700 or 800 serial number range, Baker again started marking the grade on the gun. Not sure why this change went either way.

Attached is a De Luxe quality gun, signed by Frank Mason.

Thanks, Daryl!

[jefferyconnor]

That fox chasing the ducks is some nice scene engraving, Jim!

[Bruce Day]

Admiral Fletcher’s A grade Parker with a scene that could have been the shoreline at Annapolis. Look carefully and you can see the sailing ship offshore.

[Dave Noreen]

Thanks! Does it show where the Baker Paragon falls? Below that price level?

My 1906 Wm. Read & Sons catalog shows the Baker Paragon at $60. A photocopy of a little Baker catalog that I have, that someone inked 1905 on the cover of, shows the Baker Paragon at $60 and the Special Paragon at $75. It has the same picture of the Special Paragon as this The Sportsman's Review, Jan. 7, 1905, ad --

90737

The next Baker catalog I have shows the Baker "Krupp," Grade "N" as the $75 gun --

90739

while the Baker "Paragon," Grade "P" is still $60 --

90740

It seems from my collection of catalogs that prices were pretty stable from the latter 1890s to about 1915, then inflation related to The Great War drove prices up very sharply to the early 1920s.

[Chris Robenalt]

My EE Lefever. Nothing fancy or pretty, but it's kinda neat and a great shooter!
Chris

[Chris Robenalt]

I also have this neat Baker, does anyone know the grade?

[jefferyconnor]

Nice guns, Chris! That might be an A or B grade. Hopefully someone who knows will be along after a bit. The Lefever is really nice with the single trigger and straight grip.

[Daryl Hallquist]

The Baker appears to have twist barrels, if so, it is a B Grade. If it were Damascus, it would be an A Grade.

[Bob Decker]

This is a signed Spangler on Special Order Lefever SN# 10,000

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/61872_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/61872_600x400/)

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/61873_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/61873_600x400/)

[Dave Noreen]

Baker used a variety of engraving patterns on their A and B Grades.

The actual text from a 1900 issue of The Baker Gunner -- "We do not guarantee that every "B"( or "A") grade gun will be engraved from just the same design, but endeavor to have about the same amount of engraving on each. On receiving an order from a customer we try to select first, one which will fill the specifications as to gauge, weight, length of barrels, drop and length of stock, and then conform to customer's ideas as to engraving , as nearly as possible from guns we may have in stock, but always consider engraving of secondary importance. You may receive a "B" (or "A") with a different design of border, or a duck or a dog in place of the two quail or a dog pointing game, we cannot tell as it is our aim to give a variety of designs."

[jefferyconnor]

Dr Bob, that is some nice engraving, I like the realistic scenes and the acorns on the standing breech. I take it that it doesn't fall into a normal grading chart?

[Bob Decker]

No, it is not graded. This was also before the first recorded Optimus. The serial number, 10,000, may have some significance as the very first Lefever hammerless was 5000.

[Drew Hause]

Turn-of-the-century price comparisons
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OTND2bQH0vhlbCf7c2sN8H1vzmT7xagUSXhewGB03S E

[Daryl Hallquist]

Remarkable effort Dave and Drew. It is really appreciated.

[Jay Oliver]

This isn’t anywhere near the same level as others have shared, but I liked the engraving on this trigger guard so much it made me buy the gun. It is a German percussion sxs 15 gauge with 34” barrels. I just loved the fact that there was a picture of someone loading his gun(with a ramrod) and his dog by his side…right on the trigger guard!

I guess you could say it was the subject of the engraving that made me like it so much.

[Dave Noreen]

Page 544 of John Houchins’ L.C. Smith “The Legend Lives” shows a price comparison between Smith and Parker guns. Prices for both, and in every grade, fell from 1908 to 1913. The $105 2E in 1898 went for $95 in 1908, and became the $75 AE Specialty grade in 1913.

That price drop reflects the change from publishing the high "List Prices" in their catalogs to publishing the actual "Net Selling Prices"


The A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogs from 1905 to the 1908 "Campfire" catalog showed list prices --

A - Grade ...... $50
B - Grade ...... $75
C - Grade ......$100
D - Grade ..... $200
F - Grade ..... $500
Ejectors ........$15

By the 1911 A.H. Fox Gun Co. "Campfire" catalog they were publishing both the "List Price", the same as 1908, and the actual "Net Price." They also published an Export Edition of the catalog with only the "List Prices" but with a little salmon color insert giving the "Net Prices."

By the 1913 A.H. Fox Gun Co. "A Fox Gets The Game" catalog they only give the prices that were the "Net Prices" in the 1911 and 1912 catalogs.

A - Grade ...... $37.50
B - grade ...... $50
C - Grade ......$70
D - Grade ..... $140
F - Grade ..... $350
Ejectors ........$12

By 1915 Ejectors dropped to $7.50 and C-grade and above were only offered with ejectors. Prices started up during 1916, and by the February 1st, 1920, Price list the were --

A - Grade ...... $68.25
AE- Grade ..... $80.75
CE- Grade ......$115.00
XE- Grade ......$175.00
DE- Grade ..... $275.00
FE- Grade ..... $500.00

[jefferyconnor]

Turn-of-the-century price comparisons
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OTND2bQH0vhlbCf7c2sN8H1vzmT7xagUSXhewGB03S E

That was informative to read and really gives a lot of context as to why way more $30 guns were sold than $75 guns. That's what I would have bought too if I only made 21 cents an hour!

[jefferyconnor]

This isn’t anywhere near the same level as others have shared, but I liked the engraving on this trigger guard so much it made me buy the gun. It is a German percussion sxs 15 gauge with 34” barrels. I just loved the fact that there was a picture of someone loading his gun(with a ramrod) and his dog by his side…right on the trigger guard!

I guess you could say it was the subject of the engraving that made me like it so much.

That is really a nice scene, I get why you bought it.

[Dave Noreen]

It seems that many of our double gun manufacturers shot for a $25 actual net selling price gun -- Remington K-Grade, L.C. Smith 00-Grade, Lefever Arms DS-Grade, A.H. Fox Gun Co. Sterlingworth. Parker Bros. tried with the Trojan, the very first flier giving a price of $25.50, but they couldn't do it and by the second flier the price was $27.50. Ithaca gun Co. came in even cheaper With their $30 List Price Field Grade with an actual net selling price of $19.50, claiming they could put out the gun for less money because of their water power.

[jefferyconnor]

It does seem that way! $25 must have been a practical and psychological price point threshold for farm and blue collars back then. I remember reading that the Flues Ithaca had few parts, fast lock time and was inexpensive to make.

[Dave Noreen]

It does seem that way! $25 must have been a practical and psychological price point threshold for farm and blue collars back then. I remember reading that the Flues Ithaca had few parts, fast lock time and was inexpensive to make.

Farm & blue collar workers got cheap Belgian imports (T. Barker, Sam Holt, W. Richards, etc.) or Crescents Fire Arms Co. under their numerous trade brands, J. Stevens, H & R, Iver Johnson, W.H. Davenport, etc. That $25 price point was for prosperous farmers and young entrepreneurs.

[jefferyconnor]

Makes sense. Even then though, some of those cheap old guns shot loose pretty fast, so it would have made sense to save up for at least a Stevens. H & R and IJ might have been okay too?
Actually, what do you think of the functionality of the cheaper guns, Researcher? I'm kind of showing my own assumptions when I rate them that way. I've always thought of Stevens as solid guns, though.

[charlie cleveland]

the old stevens is a solid gun in my book....charlie

[Dave Noreen]

J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. and the J. Stevens Arms Co. made a lot of shotguns under their names and numerous "trade brands" with most have stood the test of time. I started my bird hunting career with my Mother's RANGER trade branded version of a J. Stevens Springfield No. 315. It had been restocked to a straight grip for her with a quality trigger guard by my great uncle who was a gunsmith in Seattle. I'm not much of a mechanic, and try to let those who know what they are doing go on the inside, but I suspect Crescents of soft parts. IMHO the best of the lower priced doubles are Ithaca's Lefever Nitro Specials.

[Wayne Owens]

This is an Ithaca Crass Grade 6 which is one of my personal favorites.

[Nick de Guerre]

WOW. When it's lovely to be crass...

NDG

[Garry L Gordon]

I know folks are currently enamored with Bulino or Banknote engraving, but give me the (still-real, but stylized,) engraving of the early 20th century. Teddy Roosevelt once said "I know what I like," but he was talking about apples, not art. With art I think for most it's rather "I like what I know." Makes you want to know more.

[jefferyconnor]

On the bottom of the frame, that dog climbing the fence is so cool!

[Dave Noreen]

Some great engraving on those pre McGraw Ithaca doubles.

[scott kittredge]

from a BHE I once owned. but wished I kept, :cuss:
scott

[Daryl Hallquist]

Here's a Grade V.

https://i.imgur.com/cY0SlKv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CxXzTpU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fwSvhgh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mDhv7rl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/E7rMOp9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/w2CkXpC.jpg

[Ken Waite III]

This is my favorite. An early factory engraved Spencer.

[Daryl Hallquist]

I've looked for years for engraved Spencers and Burgess and other very early repeater shotguns. I have never seen anything like your Spencer. Congratulations

[Ken Waite III]

Thank you Daryl! Sounds like we have something in common. Here is one more you might like.

[Brian Dudley]

from a BHE I once owned. but wished I kept, :cuss:
scott

Scott,

Does that gun have raised beads on the edges Trigger guard bow? Or is it just the engraving making it look that way? If you recall.

[scott kittredge]

Scott,

Does that gun have raised beads on the edges Trigger guard bow? Or is it just the engraving making it look that way? If you recall.

Boy Brian i don't remember that, sorry. The gun did have 2 gold in lays, one in the stock and the other the grip cap. Most had a choice for the gold one or the other but not both and this was one of the earliest ejector gun made.
Scott

[jefferyconnor]

The Spencer with the Prairie Chicken and chicks with the hill and split rail fence in the the background is a beautiful engraving scene, among my favorites in this thread. The ducks on the other side are just great too. In both scenes, the case coloring gives an impression of clouds.