Your perspective on handling?

[Andrew Sacco]

30 years ago I got a Citori, thought it handled well. Then 10 years ago a Beretta O/U bent/cut to my dimensions, thought that was better. Then shortly after was given a Sweet 16 and oddly, that felt just very good, better in a way than the Berretta. Carried an acquaintance's Arrieta 28g, was THAT what they mean by balance? Then a couple years back shot a random guys British 24g (Greener or WS??) at sporting clays and holy crap, was this what they meant by pointability!?? Now I'm reading (again) Hughes "Double Shotguns" and he says "There are qualities inherent to a British game gun seldom found in a mass produced American double..." and he talks about balance. Then says "With the exception of some 16 and 20 gauge Foxes and O frame 16g Parkers, you don't often find this balance in an American double." I'm not stirring the pot, I'm just looking for musings, thoughts or perspectives. I am on this forum because I got a 28g Parker Repro and it carries just right and handles just right and now I'm in danger of ignoring a whole slew of stuff in my gun safe. I'm softly looking for a 16g on an O frame so the slippery slope has begun... I may have a half dozen O/U shotguns for sale soon.

[Rino Grassa]

I can definitely testify to the comments made about a 16ga O Frame, I sometimes have to re check and confirm that I am actually carrying a 16ga.....very well balanced indeed and very slender and nimble, no question!

[Andrew Sacco]

I can definitely testify to the comments made about a 16ga O Frame, I sometimes have to re check and confirm that I am actually carrying a 16ga.....very well balanced indeed and very slender and nimble, no question!

I haven't handled one yet : (

[Keith Doty]

My 0 frame 16 is definitely one of my very favorite shotguns, handles wicked fast. It's lighter than a lot of 20s and mine has a very nice balance with 28" barrels. A noticeable difference from my 1 frame 16s I lust after one with 26"! Still looking. Fortunately I own only 2 O/Us so no fire sale.

[John Allen]

One thing to always keep in mind when comparing American and English doubles is that American makers did not have the protection of a proof law.The English makers could build a lighter gun for a specific load and not worry about liability.American makers had to overbuild guns to insure themselves from legal liability if someone put overloads in their guns and got hurt.That said,many Parkers,Foxes,and others were special ordered with light frames and handle and balance as nicely as any English gun.There are just not as many of them out there.You just have to look a bit harder.When you find the right one,you will know it immediately.

[Brett Hoop]

You think the slope is getting slippery now don’t buy any 0 frame 16 or 20ga. Parkers. Much like Crack instant addiction! Turns your brain to mush. There are signs, if you start looking at your watch to see how long it’s been since you checked the classifieds here, then GI followed by GB and AA. If you start to believe the low estimate numbers on items at 4-5 auction houses. It’s time for intervention, you won’t find that here we are a bunch of enablers wrestling our own demons and busy checking new today at 4:45 am.
My doctors not in my favorites on the phone, but there are no less than 4 similarly afflicted and the rest are mostly dealers.

[Andrew Sacco]

You think the slope is getting slippery now don’t buy any 0 frame 16 or 20ga. Parkers. Much like Crack instant addiction! Turns your brain to mush. There are signs, if you start looking at your watch to see how long it’s been since you checked the classifieds here, then GI followed by GB and AA. If you start to believe the low estimate numbers on items at 4-5 auction houses. It’s time for intervention, you won’t find that here we are a bunch of enablers wrestling our own demons and busy checking new today at 4:45 am.
My doctors not in my favorites on the phone, but there are no less than 4 similarly afflicted and the rest are mostly dealers.

You said something here that caught my attention because just in the past week I've looked at online auctions and thought, "Well, that estimate seems within reach.." so I'm watching them. So is that one of the initial phases of this ailment? I already had the GB, GI fever, have alerts set to tell me when something comes up. What is uncomfortable is thinking I'm going about this with some, but not a ton, of knowledge and potentially buying a gun that people on this board would avoid like the plague (and hence look like a fool).
I've made mistakes in old cars, don't need to make them in old guns. I guess it's the adventure that intrigues me. Maybe it's best I don't find a 0 frame 16 : (

[John Davis]

I've bought a number of guns that people on the this board would avoid like the plague and hence I felt like a fool. Will probably do it again. Some of us never learn.

[Rino Grassa]

One thing to always keep in mind when comparing American and English doubles is that American makers did not have the protection of a proof law.The English makers could build a lighter gun for a specific load and not worry about liability.American makers had to overbuild guns to insure themselves from legal liability if someone put overloads in their guns and got hurt.That said,many Parkers,Foxes,and others were special ordered with light frames and handle and balance as nicely as any English gun.There are just not as many of them out there.You just have to look a bit harder.When you find the right one,you will know it immediately.
John, I knew it with this one....it feels like a 28ga in my hands...here is the Letter for this 16ga O Frame....look at the last sentence.

[Keith Doty]

Malady? Sickness? .............Certainly not..........I'm going to look at a 20 ga. in the morning!

[Jeff Kuss]

It's an addiction. Unfortunately half of the high is the search. We all know the regular places to look.

[Alfred Greeson]

The story of the 0 frame 16 Parker is real. You see it mentioned from time to time by the well respected writers, they are out there but seldom found for sale. It is like mention of the Knights of the round table, they say you can search for the castle and just at dawn on the perfect morning, through the swirling fog you can hear the sound of hoofs and horses going by, if you are close but you never know, you never see them but you know you heard them.....0 frame 16's are like that. When you pick one up you know it, when you point it the bird will fall, almost automatic, mystical. Keep looking, yours is out there!

[Andrew Sacco]

Alfred I'm almost afraid to find one now. If I try to rationalize it- I guess my kids college education isn't THAT important right? ; )

[Dave Noreen]

Much of this is myth and legend. There are 0-frame 16-gauges out there that weigh more than some of the 1-frame 16-gauges. There have been many posts about this before.

Parker Bros. did many strange things with balance and handling. My Grandfather's early Quality PH 12-gauge is on a 3-frame, but its 30-inch barrels have a lot of swamp and the gun weighs 8 pounds 8 ounces. My early Quality GH 12-gauge is on a 2-frame but its originally 32-inch barrels (now 30-inch) are very straight with almost no swamp and the gun weighs a fraction of an ounce over nine pounds.

In the mythical 1/2 frame Parkers there are 12-gauges well under 7 pounds and those over 8 pounds.

[Chris Travinski]

The best handling/well balanced Parker I have ever experienced was a #1 frame DHE 20 duck club gun that Josh had on display a few years ago. It just felt right the second I picked it up.

I would also mention that the frame size will not make or break a gun. There are light 1 frames and heavy 0 frames too.

[Stan Hillis]

Handling ......... that's a nebulous subject when it comes to shotguns. Having been a shotgunner for 61 years I know no more about it than I did at age 8, ground swatting doves with my .410 S X S around Grandad's cattle troughs.

I have visited with Don Amos and had him spin guns to get the hard and fast numbers on moment of inertia and swing effort. I've gone the route from short barrels to long barrels, with no foolproof answer as to why some guns are easier to shoot well than others. But, I have an opinion.....

I shoot a big 32" barreled HE Fox the weighs 9 lbs. 7 oz., AIR, for ducks. I also shoot .410 doubles at doves and quail that weigh under 5 lbs. I shoot them all well. Some decry super lightweight guns as "whippy", or heavyweights as "sluggish". Three years ago I went 6 for 6 on ducks with the HE. I have shot on the north side of 70% on doves with the .410s.

It is much more important that the gun fits, so that it shoots where I am looking, than how it actually handles .......... what the MOI is. Also, weight does not determine handling. Where that weight is distributed in the gun does. I have a 4 lb. 14 oz. .410 double that handles almost exactly like a 6.5 lb. ,12 ga., English game gun. The numbers from Don's turntable verify this.

Make sure your gun fits you, almost perfectly, so that it shoots exactly where you are looking. Shoot it enough to build "muscle memory". Then, next time you pick it up it will not feel alien to you, regardless that it is two thirds the weight of your other guns, but like an old friend. "Muscle memory" (actually, your subconscious controlling your muscles) will take over after swinging it a few times at an imaginary bird.

Is there fly in the ointment? Yes, there's one. Ever shot a gun that was loaned to you, for the first time, and shot it "lights out"? I mean, it seemed that you couldn't miss with it? Then, you either bought it or bought one exactly like it and couldn't shoot it worth a crap? I've had this happen, and seen it happen with others, so many times that it boggles the mind. I can't explain it, but it happens, and it defies all logic. That is why I say I haven't learned a thing, in all these years, about handling.

JMO, YMV.

[Alfred Greeson]

Great post, honesty is a virtue so they say. A lot of caveats on that one.
As to the college fund for kids being in jeopardy, my 0 frame 16 came from a gentleman who bought Parkers through the years and was selling them as needed for college tuition, so it all works out. That gun is a 16 VHE from 1921 28 inch mod & fuller. The brass gauge will just barely go in that full barrel but it fits me and I shoot it better than any other double I have ever owned. It just seems to have all the qualities that make a great shooter. Other Parkers that I own, of various descriptions just don't shoot with it. Keep looking and you will find such a Parker and a sure bet is it may be an 0 frame 16. I honestly think the craftsmen who build them gave them a little extra attention.

[Reggie Bishop]

For my 50th birthday my wife gave me the present of some laps around the Talladega speedway in a NASCAR race car. Sounded fun. I knew I could drive a hot lap or two. The only problem was that the cars were set up with an “average” person’s measurements. I am 6’2” long legs and long arms and they barely could fold me up enough to shoe horn me in the thing. I was cramped and melting and my fastest lap was in the 170s.

The car obviously had the handling but the fit was all wrong and thus the performance was sub-par. Same thing applies to shooting, or golf, or anything else that involves a human and equipment.

[Mike Koneski]

I will echo what Stan said. He was spot on.

[Andrew Sacco]

I really appreciate all the feedback. I had a fitting and Rich Cole do a semi custom stock on my Beretta field gun. I shoot it OK. It fits but just lacks something. The 28g Parker repro is close, and a lot lighter, but I shoot it better and it just feels "right" so I know what Stan is talking about. I'm not a great shot, or great shotgunner. I love being around guns I guess and now this Parker thing has me interested. My only real concern is buying something without handling it. I guess the "out" is that I could sell it, which means I have to buy smart. I am a bit perplexed as to why there are so many weights with different frame sizes, but I would assume because each was made to a customers requests?

[Mike Koneski]

Andy, from all the reading and hands on experience there is one thing to remember when comparing American guns with Eurotrash and that is American shooters always wanted to shoot heavy/hot loads at their game whereas the Brits opted for much lighter shooting shells. Our hunting was walk up with or without dogs. The Brits did some walk up but mostly driven. Two completely different styles of hunting and two different styles of guns, for the most part. Along with that, reread Stan's post. :)

[John Davis]

I do not claim to be a great shot. I have become somewhat competitive in trap. What I have found is, that above all else, the fit of the gun is what makes the real difference. If the gun fits you, then you are going to consistently hit targets. If it doesn't fit, you are going to struggle. Weight, choke, length of barrels, etc. only apply to the specific game you are pursuing or playing. If it don't fit, it won't hit.

[Keith Doty]

Stan is spot on about fit. I have a horrible ugly Winchester 1400, make a man cry to look at. It's been my salt marsh duck killer for many years. I shoot it well because it just fits me and I have shot it for years, it has become a body part extension. Doesn't matter how polished a shot you are, how nice or expensive a gun is, if it doesn't fit you well you won't shoot it like one that does.

[Andrew Sacco]

Andy, from all the reading and hands on experience there is one thing to remember when comparing American guns with Eurotrash and that is American shooters always wanted to shoot heavy/hot loads at their game whereas the Brits opted for much lighter shooting shells. Our hunting was walk up with or without dogs. The Brits did some walk up but mostly driven. Two completely different styles of hunting and two different styles of guns, for the most part. Along with that, reread Stan's post. :)

Thanks Mike. Maybe I'll just drive down and borrow a truckload of guns from you to see what I like :rotf: Hi to Sam!

[Mike Koneski]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Now you're diggin' where the taters are!!