American 20th Century Side by Sides

[jefferyconnor]

I'm kind of buying at least one of each. I consider them a bargain as functional artistic guns, especially engraved middle level guns other than Parkers.
I like American doubles: the fact they break down so easily, the fact of their appearance, the fact of their ancestry of design being originally converted muzzleloaders, and the fact they were made in America.
I own a Parker, a LC Smith, an Ithaca, a Fox, a Lefever, a Winchester 21, and a Baker. What am I missing? I know about the Remington 1894 and the Hatfield. Does anyone know about other makers?

[Wayne Owens]

I would add a Colt to your collection
They are beautiful and great quality.

[jefferyconnor]

I do want to have one! I have in my my mind they ended production before the 20th century?

[Wayne Owens]

I think production ended around 1895.

[Dave Noreen]

Colt was actually gone by the 20th Century --

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My 1900 J.H. Johnston Great Western Gun Works catalog was still offering the Colt Hammerless Doubles. I says only a few left.

American Arms Co.'s Whitmore Hammerless just made it to the 20th Century --

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Syracuse Arms Co. started about 1893, but made it to maybe 1908 --

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Baltimore Arms was 1900 to 1904 --

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Hollenbeck/Three-Barrel/Royal Gun Co. was 1901 to 1910 --

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Tobin Arms Manufacturing Co. was founded in 1904 --

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operated in the U.S. through 1909 then moved to Woodstock, Ontario, Canada and operated until WW-I.

Ansley Fox's Philadelphia Arms Co. was incorporated in 1902, built a factory and was finally producing a gun in latter 1904 --

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Then in late 1904 Ansley left and by the spring of 1905 founded the A.H. Fox Gun Co.

Those are a few I can think of quickly. There were some nice J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. doubles in the years just before WW-I.

[jefferyconnor]

I didn't know Colt made it until 1900! Dang, this is a bigger project than I thought. Of the ones you mentioned, Researcher, which ones were made significant numbers? So that I have a reasonable chance of finding one in decent shape?

[edgarspencer]

Any Meriden Firearms Co gun is a beautiful piece. Their high grade guns rivaled Parker's higher grades, and were usually engraved by contractors who worked for many other companies.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

How about H&R,Iver Johnson, and The American Gun Co..Your project is a bit more complicated than what you initially envisioned, but certainly a worthy endeavor.

[Dean Romig]

But why limit yourself to only 20th century guns? There are some amazingly beautiful guns produced before 1900 that truly deserve to be appreciated. Half of my collection were made in the 19th century.





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[Jeff Kuss]

When I started collecting, I had the same quest as you. I wanted one of each American made SXS. Then I got hooked on Parkers.

[Andrew Sacco]

Savage? Or is that considered one that you own already (ie savage/fox...etc) I know they were middling guns but they were latter 20th century, right?

EDIT: Also the Browning SxS but then I re-read the original post about being made in America so just ignore me. I don't think the Browning or Savage were.

[Mike Koneski]

Jeff, don't forget Crescent Arms Co guns. I had some and shot them in .410, 28 and 20g. Fun to shoot and not expensive. Just ask Cold Spring, "Team Crescent Rules!!"

[Dave Noreen]

There were barely 2000 Philadelphia Arms Co. FOX doubles. Baltimore Arms Co. guns have serial numbers from about 1000 to just over 7000. The serial numbers show just south of 20000 Tobins.

Some others to consider would be Forehand & Wadsworth --

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Forehand Arms Co. --

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Torkelson --

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The little H & R hammer guns --

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Hopkins & Allen --

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These Hopkins & Allen sideplated guns appear to have some of the features of the later Iver Johnson doubles --

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[Dave Noreen]

Savage? Or is that considered one that you own already (ie savage/fox...etc)

Savage Arms Corp. actually very briefly offered a double, the Model 320 --

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Introduced in their January 2, 1937, catalog along with their Model 220 hammerless single barrel and Model 420/430 over/under. The Model 320 was a trigger-plate locks style gun. Apparently Savage decided a better answer for a lower priced double was to take the internals of their J. Stevens Arms Co. No. 530. put them in a bit nicer profiled and black gun metal finished frame with a bit nicer stock and besmirch the Fox name by calling it the Fox Model B --

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introduced by this insert in some of their 1939 A.H. Fox catalog.

[jefferyconnor]

Researcher, that is interesting! A lot of gun-wise people describe the Fox B as a fancy
Stevens 311. Seems like the 311 is a plain Fox B because it came first.

Thanks for your help everyone! Based on the idea of reasonable availability and production numbers, I've narrowed my plans for a want list to: Remington 1894, Iver Johnson, Tobin, Fox B/Stevens, Meridan, Lefever Nitro, and Winchester 24. The Hatfield, I'm keeping an eye out for, but were there any other later American doubles? The Crescent and hardware store guns, I'll set aside for now. Plus the really scarce low production guns made in the early 20th century. I think the Ruger Gold Label is not 20th century, but I'd probably make an exception for it and the Colt!

[Wayne Owens]

I still think the colt would be a must for your collection. Just my opinion.

[Dave Noreen]

The history of the 311 is a long and winding road in the history of J. Stevens. Shortly before WW-I the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. introduced a hammerless double in 12- and 16-gauge in their lower priced Riverside Arms Co. line built on the G.S. Lewis Patent No. 1,136,247 style action using coil spring driven strikers rather than internal hammers rotating about an axle. They called it the Riverside No. 315. After The Great War, J. Stevens Arms Co. continued the Riverside No. 315 and by 1923 they added a slightly fancier version called the J. Stevens No. 330. Adding 20-gauge in 1923 and the .410-bore version by 1925. In 1928, J. Stevens Arms Co. changed the name of their low priced line to Springfield Arms Co. In 1929, just in time for the Great Depression, they added a lower priced version of the No. 315 and called it the Springfield No. 311. While the Stevens No. 330 had a capped full pistol grip checkered walnut stock, the Springfield No. 315 had a checkered half-pistol grip walnut stock, and the new No. 311 had a plain walnut finished hardwood stock. In 1936, J. Stevens began phasing in a new style action with hammers that rotated abut an axle. Early ones marked 5000 and later 5100. The J. Stevens No. 330 became the No. 530 with the new action and the Springfield No. 315 became the No. 515. The Springfield No. 311 continued being made on the G.S. Lewis action up to WW-II. Throughout the years numerous "trade branded" versions of the G.S. Lewis action gun were also made. In 1940, J. Stevens Arms Co. introduced a version of their No. 530 with stock and forearm made from a plastic material they called Tenite and called it the No. 530-M. After WW-II Savage Arms Corp. consolidated their arms making operations at their J. Stevens factories at Chicopee Falls, Mass. while the factory at Utica went to making items for the post-war housing boom.

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In the 1947 Savage/Stevens/Fox/Springfield catalog the hammerless double with the Tenite stock and forearm that was the J. Stevens No. 530-M up through 1946, was called the Springfield No. 311. By the 1948 catalog it was the Stevens Model 311. By the 1951 catalog the Tenite stock was gone and the Stevens Model 311 got the plain walnut finished hardwood stock and became the gun most folks know.

[jefferyconnor]

Is it then fair to say the Stevens 5000, 5100, 520, 311, and Fox B all the same design? I have a vague memory of reading that millions of the 311/Fox B were made. Any idea about total numbers made? I wonder if the 311/Fox B was the top dog in production numbers of all side by sides? They were always sort of on my mind when I would read Gun Digests when I was a kid in the '70s. The USA doubles were down to Winchester 21s and the 311/Fox B by then. There were Hatfields for awhile too, then the Gold Label. Now, nothing, right?

I just remembered that I saw Ithaca Trap guns in a catalog that I sent away for in about 1978 or so. They were still being made, although they were a single shot.

[Rick Losey]

[QUOTE=jefferyconnor;316967 Now, nothing, right?[/QUOTE]

I think Connecticut Shotgun would disagree with that

[Dave Noreen]

Is it then fair to say the Stevens 5000, 5100, 520 (should be 530, the 520 was a John M. Browning designed pump gun), 311, and Fox B all the same design? I have a vague memory of reading that millions of the 311/Fox B were made. Any idea about total numbers made?

There were a number of changes made over the 49 years this basic design was produced, designated by letters A up to H. I wonder if Savage even knows how many were produced? Pre WW-II they were serial numbered. Then from the consolidation at Chicopee Falls in 1947 to the GCA 68 they weren't. There is also the matter of the J. Stevens records being destroyed in a fire, some say to cover up charges of war profiteering?!? So, who knows.

[jefferyconnor]

How does this Tobin look to everyone as to originality?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/shotguns-american-double/tobin-arms-12ga-very-nice-.cfm?gun_id=101525704

[Dave Noreen]

Looks pretty honest to me. Probably better than 90% of them you'll find. I suspect the barrels may have been reblued some time ago.

That gun is a No. 40 Featherweight Grade.

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The grades in the U.S. Tobin catalogs I have are No. 20 Standard Grade, No. 30 Expert Grade, No. 40 Featherweight Grade, No. 45 Premium Grade, No. 21 Trap Grade, No. 50 Special Pigeon Grade, No. 55 Model Grade and No. 60 Model Grade. Unfortunately, about half of the Tobins one encounters don't match any of the pictures in the catalogues.

[Bruce Day]

Colt. The initials are original and match mine.

[Chris Robenalt]

Sounds like you've read some McIntosh! Don't forget the Remington 32...
My buddy and I once had the same plan as you Jeff. Now we have too many and not enough time to shoot them all. We did venture off and explore some English doubles. We also took on a few hammer guns each! There are many fine doubles out there, enjoy your future acquisitions!

[Dean Romig]

If we’re including OU’s let’s not forget the Marlin 90.





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[Dave Noreen]

If we’re including OU’s let’s not forget the Marlin 90.

Don't forget the Savage Model 420/430 pre WW-II, and just post WW-II the Morrone.

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[charlie cleveland]

the tobin looked to be refinished to me....charlie

[jefferyconnor]

Colt. The initials are original and match mine.

That is cool, Bruce that the name matches yours. That's in really nice shape-- original barrel finish do you think? I've read Colts rated as the finest made American doubles, are they nicely made and engineered? I have pretty much only Colt handguns and like Colt's guns in general. I've been looking for a nice hammerless for quite a while.

[jefferyconnor]

Don't forget the Savage Model 420/430 pre WW-II, and just post WW-II the Morrone.

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O/Us are not part of my plan, but I have wanted a Savage 430 and keep an eye out for them periodically. They seem to have nice wood most often.

[jefferyconnor]

Sounds like you've read some McIntosh! Don't forget the Remington 32...
My buddy and I once had the same plan as you Jeff. Now we have too many and not enough time to shoot them all. We did venture off and explore some English doubles. We also took on a few hammer guns each! There are many fine doubles out there, enjoy your future acquisitions!
Honestly, some of my guns don't get shot too much, but I do try to cycle them through when I go hunting. I could get by with my 16 EE Lefever by itself as a practical matter!
Realistically I'm looking at 10-11 guns--Parker, LC Smith, Lefever, Fox, Ithaca: these five I think of as the principle makers because of combination of long production, large numbers and quality. Sort of the classic 20th century ones. Add Remington, Baker and Winchester 21, these three I see as covering a shorter time period but made in large numbers, good quality and availability. Stevens 5000/5100/311, Winchester 24, and Iver Johnson are probably not as fine a gun, but I kind of like less expensive guns too. I've found less popular guns are hard to sell when the time comes to sell, so I try not get to get too aggressive buying them.

[jefferyconnor]

In the end I’m ending my hunt with a: Ithaca NID 3E 10 Mag, Parker DHE 12, LC Smith 12 Field, Baker Paragon 12, Winchester 21 12, Remington FE Trap 12, Lefever EE 16, Fox Sterlingworth 16, and Stevens/Savage/Simmons “Quails Fargo” 20. This works for me for now. I’m still idly looking for a: Meriden, Tobin, Skeet-Er, and Hatfield. I look for Colt’s too, even though they barely qualify for 20th century.

Can anyone suggest any more additions to my want list and comment with your ideas as to the relative merits of each make of gun?

[Stan Hoover]

Jeff,
I assume you’re 3E Ithaca 10 Mag is a 3 1/2” gun?

Have 1 myself, 3E’s are probably a little more scarce.

Stan Hoover

[Garry L Gordon]

If you can find good examples (well cared for regardless of grade) for Meriden and Tobin, both makers produced some very nice guns. I have a nice Meriden 16 and it's engraving looks like it was done by one of the Parker engravers. Its barrels are really nice Damascus.

[Bruce Hering]

If you can find good examples (well cared for regardless of grade) for Meriden and Tobin, both makers produced some very nice guns. I have a nice Meriden 16 and it's engraving looks like it was done by one of the Parker engravers. Its barrels are really nice Damascus.

I have two Meriden guns. A16 ga 30" barrels and a 12 ga. 32" barrels. They are the "Plain Jane" guns but are quite nicely put together and shoot quit well. I have always wanted an engraved Meriden but they seem to be about like hens teeth for me.

[Mills Morrison]

I would like to get a Mullin at some point.

[Kevin McCormack]

Remarked this morning to our "Geezer Squad" who shoots every Friday morning at our local Izaak Walton League range about passing on a 5 E Ithaca 20 gauge at the "Old Baltimore Show" when it was still held at the old National Guard Armory in downtown Baltimore. Shown for sale on a young couple's "yard sale" collection (Winchester roller skates, vintage Barlow pocket knives, German helmets, etc.). Only SxS on the table along with some knackered out single barrel American made guns; couldn't swallow the $2500 asking price!!

[jefferyconnor]

Jeff,
I assume you’re 3E Ithaca 10 Mag is a 3 1/2” gun?

Have 1 myself, 3E’s are probably a little more scarce.

Stan Hoover

It is a 3 1/2”, but I miss-stated the grade, it’s a 2 ejector. Kind of swings like a battleship.

[jefferyconnor]

If you can find good examples (well cared for regardless of grade) for Meriden and Tobin, both makers produced some very nice guns. I have a nice Meriden 16 and it's engraving looks like it was done by one of the Parker engravers. Its barrels are really nice Damascus.

I agree, the engraving on this Meriden sure looks similar to Parker engraving, with the stylized ducks and a walking turtle. A Tobin listing had ducks really close to Parker ducks a few months ago, also.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/shotguns-american-double/meriden-k30-12-gauge-s-s.cfm?gun_id=101351071#md-5

[Daryl Hallquist]

This is serial no. 1000. It is the lowest serial number found and seems to be the first Meriden Sidelock.

https://i.imgur.com/lBjhKZQ.jpg

[Dean Romig]

A beautiful gun!





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[Daryl Hallquist]

Found in a small northeast auction, purchased from a Tobin family member. Researcher did a fine article on it for Double Gun Journal.

https://i.imgur.com/mZYKOW8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/f2R0MRz.jpg

[Garry L Gordon]

Wow!…twice!

[Keith Sirmans]

Wilkes Barre made a few nice ones too

[Daryl Hallquist]

Keith, here are a few Wilkes Barre guns.

https://i.imgur.com/8ADkJXW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VzaGdCJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/htAgSOF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GQ7JKJM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XaAbCrd.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Very nice guns Daryl!





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[Garry L Gordon]

What a wonderful time to have been alive, a shooter...and enough money!

[Dave Noreen]

Wilkes Barre Gun Co., follow on to the Parry Fire Arms Co. --

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didn't make it to the 20th century.

[charlie cleveland]

those guns are away out of my reach but I do like looking at them...charlie

[jefferyconnor]

What years were the Wilkes-Barre and Parry guns made?

[Keith Sirmans]

Now that ya mention it I think they tapped out around 1895 and sold to Ithaca

[Dave Noreen]

Parry Fire Arms Co. was in the 1890-91 Ithaca, New York, city directory. The Wilkes-Barre Gun Co. was listed in the 1892, 1893, 1894 and 1895 Wilkes-Barrel, Pennsylvania, city directories. Edward George Parry had been a barrel brazer at Ithaca Gun Co. before going out on his own with a hammer gun much nicer than Ithaca's.