3" GHE

[jefferyconnor]

I have bought a 1910 made GHE 12 gauge number 2 frame gun. The chambers measure 3" long exactly. The barrel wall thickness 3" from the breech is .096"-.097". The chambers/forcing cones show slight rust staining their entire length. I have requested a research letter from PGCA.

I'm wondering what people's thoughts are about the originality of this chamber length?

What are your thoughts as to whether the research letter will be able to verify the 3" chambers or not?

[Dean Romig]

A 2 frame 12 gauge Parker is generally a pretty stout gun but it would surprise me to learn the 3” chambers are original, especially with those wall thicknesses. I’m not saying they’re unsafe but they are certainly minimal for what kind of 3” ammo some folks might use.





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[jefferyconnor]

Thanks for the reply! I too kind of doubt it's original 3" chambers. I have a return privilege yet I'm going to see if the seller will let me hold onto it until I get my research letter. I did search this forum and found references to chamber end wall thickness at the forcing cone juncture listed in the range of .080"-.100" as typical for vintage doubles.

Does anyone here have a letter confirmed factory 3" Parker that they could measure the wall thickness of the chamber end/forcing cone juncture?

[Dave Noreen]

From the get go, Parker Bros. would chamber a gun for whatever length cartridge the customer ordered. In theory if the customer requested a gun be chambered for 3-inch shells, the chamber would in fact be 2 7/8 inch.

Three-inch and even 3 1/4 inch 12-gauge shells were available from our North American ammunition manufacturers virtually from the beginning of factory loaded shot shells. They didn't offer heavier loads than one could get in the 2 3/4 inch shell, the advantage which many gun cranks believed in was more/better wadding. The heaviest 12-gauge loads offered back in the day were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. Here is such a load in 3-inch Winchester LEADER cases marked as Fred Gilbert's Live Bird load by Von Lengerke & Antoine --

89626

And in a 2 7/8 inch Western Cartridge Co. RECORD case --

89627

In a Remington ARROW 2 3/4 inch case with 28 grains of Ballistite --

89628

These loads are said to be a bit higher pressure than today's SAAMI specs.

The 12-gauge 3-inch progressive burning powder load with 1 3/8 ounce of shot was introduced in the 1924/5 time frame by Western Cartridge Co. put up in their RECORD case.

89629

The 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum with 1 5/8 ounce of shot was introduced in 1935 along with Winchester's Model 12 Heavy Duck --

89630

89631

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Dave.

I would think if the subject gun was ordered with 3” chambers intended for shells somewhat longer than 3” the factory records and the research letter would address the order.





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[Drew Hause]

Jeffery: I believe you have misinterpreted the wall thickness threads.
Lot of information here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=379803&page=3

An end-of-the-chamber wall thickness of .080" would NOT be factory original in a 2 Frame, nor even in a light weight British game gun 12b.

[jefferyconnor]

Drew, thanks, your chart is the one I was thinking of, showing a range (in 12 gauge) from .086" for a Parker VH to .118" for a LC Smith. The only other Parker I have measured at .093" It's a 12 gauge 2 5/8" chambers, 28", 1 1/2 frame, 1929 VH, with barrels stamped "3 - 6". The VH is original finish, original bores, I think. I was wondering what your thoughts of this GHE measuring at .096" are. Unlikely to be original or hard to say? I mailed in my request for a research letter today, by the way.

[Drew Hause]

How long are the forcing cones Jeffery? They were originally likely 1/2" to 5/8".
If longer, when they were lengthening the chamber may have been lengthened another 3/8"; from 2 5/8".
I have a L.C. Smith with long cones and non-original 3 1/4" chambers still with end-of-the-chamber WT of .112" and .118".
I don't believe a 2 frame Parker would have end-of-the-chamber WT of .096". But assuming the barrels are Parker Special Steel, I would be comfortable using 1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps target loads in the gun.

[jefferyconnor]

The forcing cones look short, Drew, although I haven't measured them yet, I will tonight. I'll also take a measurement at 2 5/8" from the breech to get a hypothetical wall thickness with standard chambers.

Does anyone have a end of chamber wall thickness measurement for a number 2 Parker for comparison? Best of all would be if someone happened to have measurement on a 3" chamber gun that letters.

[Joseph Flynn]

Jeffrey, I have a DH 12 circa 1902 that has 30" Damascus barrels and factory 3" chambers. The research letter states that it was ordered with 3" chambers, and that the chambers are listed as 2 7/8".

[jefferyconnor]

Thanks, Josey! So your chambers measure 2 7/8"? Is there a chance you can measure the barrel wall thickness at the end of the chamber?

The seller of this GHE has agreed to extend the inspection period until I get the research letter.

[Joseph Flynn]

Yes the chambers measure pretty close to 2 7/8". Unfortunately I don't have a barrel wall thickness gauge so I can't give you those measurements.

[jefferyconnor]

Thanks for the help everyone! Now I'll wait for my research letter. Is there any chance of getting an early word about the chambers before I receive my letter?
Meanwhile, does anyone else happen to have end of chamber/forcing cone wall thickness measurements for a Parker 12 gauge?
I'm leaning towards the idea this is a non-Parker modification that was done a long time ago as evidenced by consistent rust staining through the full length of the chamber. Also, the fact my chambers are 3" exactly, not following the factory practice of being 1/8" short.
Drew, by the way my forcing cones are 1/2".

[Dean Romig]

After Chuck receives your payment he can tell you what he finds either privately or publicly, your choice. All you have to do is ask him.






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[Dave Noreen]

Some time ago there was a thread where it was discussed/speculated that if a customer's order called for a "3-inch chamber", that is what they got. But, if the request was "chamber for 3-inch shells" the chamber would be 2 7/8 inch. Have no idea if this has any validity.

[Dean Romig]

I’ve heard and read the same thing Dave.




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[jefferyconnor]

That's interesting! I'm more curious than ever to see what the letter says. It sounds like 3" factory chambers are not out of the question yet.
I carefully remeasured my chamber end wall thickness and the lowest reading was .096" left and .105" right. I measured a lot of locations and it was an eye opener how much variation there was. The .096" was a single low spot, all other readings on the left barrel were over .105" with a high reading of .112". The right barrel was likewise over .110" except in that one spot and had a high of .118". I recently got the gauge from Brownell's and am trying to be accurate with it. It's sensitive to pressure, to say the least.

[Bruce Day]

The usual end of chamber factory wall thickness for 2 frame Parkers is about .120 “.

[jefferyconnor]

These barrels measure .118" right and .120" at 2 5/8" from the breech, so if these barrel had been chambered with a standard length chamber that would be consistent with your measurements. I'm in the process of measuring a few 12 gauge doubles right now. I only have one other 1 1/2 Parker but I have a LC Smith, a Baker, and a 21 Winchester for comparison.

[charlie cleveland]

I hope you wind up with a factory 3 inch gun...I really like 3 inch guns they seem to have some thing magical about them.....charlie

[jefferyconnor]

Charlie do you happen to have barrel wall measurements for a factory 3" chambered gun? I should would appreciate it if someone did have those measurements. That could answer whether Parker filed 3" guns different or just chambered them longer and used the same outside contour. If anyone even had exterior diameters at 2 5/8" and 3" from the breech that would be a help to me.

[charlie cleveland]

I do not have any way to measure them...I hope someone else does for you....charlie

[jefferyconnor]

I measured my 12 gauges at the barrel/forcing cone and weighed them with the following results:
Baker Paragon L-.97, R-.103 weighs 3# 13 oz. 2 5/8" chamber
Win 21 L-.115, R-.119 weighs 3# 9 oz. 2 3/4" chamber
LC Smith Field L .102, R .105 weighs 3# 15 oz. 2 3/4" chamber
Parker PH L .107 R .115 weighs 4# 1 oz. 2 1/2" chamber, 1 frame
Parker VH L .90, R .90 weighs 3# 4 oz. 2 5/8" chamber, 1 1/2 frame
Parker GHE L .96 R .104 weighs 3# 10 3" chamber, 2 frame

These are original finish and bores, I'm pretty certain. All are 30" except for the VH which is 28".

Can anyone help me out with these dimensions or even outside contour diameters of a factory 3" or 2 7/8"? The GHE doesn't have records to say one way or the other as to whether the chamber was done at the factory. It seems unlikely the 3" chamber is original, but I'm curious as to the contour of a confirmed and lettered long chamber gun.

Are these thicknesses typical in your opinion?

[Dave Noreen]

Here is the link to another 3-inch chamber thread where Larry the Gun Guy posts pictures of a righteous Remington era 3-inch 12-gauge --

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29785&highlight=3-inch&page=4

[jefferyconnor]

Thanks, Researcher! I reached out to the poster in that thread and he had already sold that gun. I would sure like to compare outside diameters with similar weight and length Parkers with standard and long chambers. I'm sort of wondering if Parker filed or selected barrels to be extra thick in the breech when long chambers were selected in original orders. This GHE's minimum end of chamber measurement is not especially low compared to the other 12 gauges I own, it is in the middle in regards to thickness.

[Craig Larter]

I own a lettered gun specified with 2 7/8" chambers. Both barrels have a wall thickness of .120 at the front of the chamber.

[Dave Noreen]

Keep in mind that the Remington era 12-gauge 3-inch guns were on the 1 1/2 frame, and these were mostly made after the progressive burning powder 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum, 4 1/4 dram equiv., 1 5/8 ounce loads were introduced along with Winchester's Model 12 Heavy Duck.

[jefferyconnor]

That's a good thought, Researcher. This gun is a 1910 era gun with the possibility the lengthened chambers were to gain extra thick wadding, not extra power.

[Richard Flanders]

Jeffery brought this gun over to my house the other night before I left to fly to Denver. It's a very stout gun and really nice. Seems the stoutest #2 frame gun I've seen. Original chamber length or not, those barrels are plenty thick enough for 3" shells in my opinion.