Another Damascus Horror Story...

[Mike Stahle]

Guy's this was just posted on another forum in a thread about the safety of Damascus shotgun barrels. What do you think?


"35 years ago or so I worked part time for a gunsmith.One day a fellow in his late 60's or ealy 70's brought in a damascus barreled side by side with a broken hammer spring on one side.His grandson was with him.My employer refused to work on it. The guy really didn't like this and said he had been shooting that gun since he was a young man.Well he went to a succession of gunsmiths,at least 5,til he found one that would fix his favorite shotgun.About a year or so later the grandson came in with a different repair.My employer asked about the old man and his shotgun.The grandson said that the left barrel gave out the next time he went duck hunting.Cut his hand off at the wrist almost like it had been done with a saw.Back then an ER was a couple of hours away from where they were hunting.He said that took all the starch out of his grandpa and that he passed a few months later.The trouble with damascus barreled guns is that the first time is the only time you have trouble with them."

[Jay Gardner]

Typical story told by someone who heard it from someone who wasn't actually there. A Damascus barrel explodes there for all Damascus barrels are bad, blah, blah, blah...

[Bruce Day]

There is not a single fact recited in that story by which its truth can be investigated. The first thing a BS artist does is to make sure his story has nothing by which an investigator could find out the guy is lying. If he worked in a gunshop, he would know the town, the name of the gunsmith; all of which are conveniently omitted.

So the usual concocted story has some unverifiable "facts" to justify an unwarranted conclusion. This conclusion is that a damascus barrel just ruptures catastrophically without any prior indications. I suppose all barrels can do that, but posters here have shown enough photos of bulged damascus and fluid steel guns so that any reasonable person knows that his conclusion that all damascus barrels fail in that manner is nonsense.

I am not an expert in Parkers or guns in general, but I do know that many of these gun chat forums are sheer nonsense and as cocktail hour(s) drag on, the BS gets deeper. This PGCA forum, L C Smith and a few other moderated forums where the posters generally know each other and who is full of it and who is reliable, are the exceptions in a vast sea of internet drivel.

As an aside, there is some site for gun talk called a campfire cracker barrel. I think it should be renamed to beer barrel.

[Dean Romig]

I think Bruce about said it all.
In my time with Parkers and other older SXS shotguns I think we've seen about as many fluid steel catastrophic failures as Damascus catastrophic failures.... which proves nothing either way.

[Pete Lester]

Such stories are true and the word should be spread across the land as it had been before. We should put a something to this effect on the PGCA website:

Damascus and Twist barrels are dangerous, guns so equipped are worthless paperweights, especially anything stamped Parker Bros. Although you know this is a dangerous gun your heirs may not. You want to avoid any future harm. Fortunately for you, the owners of these dangerous and junk guns there are a few folks who simply want to admire the work of the artisans who built them. We provide a proper and safe disposal service and we will pay a small fee plus shipping to prevent these dangerous relics from hurting you or your loved ones. If you own such a gun contact any of the following PGCA members for an evaluation and disposal instructions. :)

[Mark Ouellette]

Pete,

Please have them all shipped to my home address... :)

[charlie cleveland]

my parker 8 ga may blow up tommorrow but shes swallowed up to as much as 3 ounce loads without a whimper.....and its damascus....thanks for theinfo and story on damascus..... charlie

[David Holes]

I took damascus DH 12 out phez. hunting yesterday. Made in 97. Rolled up 10 shells and labeled dam. 7.5. Took a limit of 3 roosters and no arms. First time hunting with dam. gun. Sure was fun letting her work again. We won't wait another 50 years to go again. Our phez. numbers are low so I think she brought good luck.

[George Lander]

The Brits have shown ever since the introduction of fluid steel that their Damascus or Twist steel guns can be reproved by being able to withstand proof loads which are much in excess of ordinary game loads and are marked accordingly. Perhaps we should have a proof house on this side of the pond as well. JMHO.

Best Regards, George

[Dean Romig]

A proof house here? Unless it was mandated by the gummint I don't think we'll ever see one. I for one, would never subject any of my guns, Damascus or fluid steel to the extremes that a proof house might. I don't think in the ten or fifteen years I have remaining to shoot and hunt I could ever equal the stress using 7,500 p.s.i. loads I put upon my guns that one visit to a proof house would. Thanks, but no thanks.

[scott kittredge]

i will be proofing some guns on jan 1st :rotf:

[Drew Hause]

Good idea George :)

July 27 1895 Sporting Life
Call for a Government Proof House
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_18/SL2518019.pdf

[Jay Gardner]

To my knowlege Paul Harm is the only one on this board with personal, first-hand, experience with failure of a damascus barrel and, I remember the facts correctly, that was due to a re-load that would probably have blown-up just about any barrel; fluid, twist or damascus. Paul, you out there?

[Bruce Day]

Paul earlier said it was an inadvertant substitution of smokeless for black, PB I think it was. That is a well known blower-upper.

[Jay Gardner]

You are correct, Bruce. I shot with Paul a few weeks after the incident. Nasty wounds, indeed, but he was not missing a hand nor were ay bones broken. It certainly did not effect his abiliy to clobber clay birds, that's for sure.

[Russ Jackson]

You would think it could make a guy flinch a little !!!!:shock:

[Joe Wood]

Well, I blew one up years ago. Yesiree, 'bout 17 years old (back about '58) and got tired of cleaning all that old black powder residue outta my Belgium muzzleloader. Decided those old men didn't know all the stuff claimed. So I jest poured 'bout the same amount of Red Dot down that sucker. Dove came whistling by 'n that's 'bout all I remember. Never did find the breech area. Never have heard high frequencies again (kept me outta Vietnam). Never do THAT again.

Most of the guns I shoot are damascus and I have complete faith in them. Guess they'd stand a whole lot more pressure but as mentioned earlier I keep a 7,500 psi or less cap on it. Only benefit of going to higher pressures is to cycle automatics--sure don't gain anything else.

[Eric Eis]

If I remember correctly, Paul's handload was PB instead of BP and he had shot the gun three times using those shells until the fourth shell which did the trick, and I think he said that pressure was around 28,000 to 30,000 psi. Now that friends is a Hot Load.....! Eric

[Bruce Day]

Joe, what, a person taking personal responsibility for something foolish he did! Should have known a Texan would cowboy up and admit it.

How is that G 16ga working out for you, Joe? Only two more months of quail season down there.

Eric, that's about 2 times the Parker proof load for the gun.

Got a bunch of us going hunting in SW KS next week. Picking up east coasters at Wichita. Annual Friends of Charlie ( "FOC'ers") event. I saw clouds of pheasants last month when I was there and hope to put all the FOC'ers on birds again, never seen so many in Kansas as last month and rivaled anything I had ever seen in SoDak even in the 70's. Last year was highs of 10 and 12 inches of snow, looks a lot better this year with this global warming thing working out so well.

[John Dallas]

PB or BP? It's tough to be as reloader if your are dyslexic

[Jay Gardner]

Here's a REAL damascus horror story... An aquaintance of mine in Maine was at an auction a couple of weeks ago and watched a 20 ga DH with 28" damascus barrels, showing virtually no wear, and a SSBP sell for $2,300. What made it horrible was he couldn't get his cell to work and so he couldn't reach me to ask me how much I'd pay for the gun. Not THATS a real horror story. Hell, flesh will grow back but how many 20 ga D-grades with long damascus barrels and SSBP's are floating around?

[Dean Romig]

That's how it happens sometimes Jay. Where in Maine? It can't have been one of the major auction houses in Maine - must be a local town auction.

[Jay Gardner]

Small local auction - way off the grid.

[Joe Wood]

Bruce, that 16 G is doing just fine. As you remember, it's on a #1 frame (damascus) and weighs in at 6/11. A tad heavy for a subgauge but handles well and has good momentum. Let's see.....I've had the gun cleaned (guts were totally gunked up with dried grease), put back on face, bores honed, chokes opened, and three new engraved screws for the floorplate. All the work by David Yale. Got waaay more in it than market value but hey, it's a good 'un. I took it hunting yesterday along with Mike Shepherd and we had a fine day. Didn't try to do a lot of damage to the birds but saw some great dog work. It was a "Parker 16" day for us: Mike shot his VH 0 frame with black powder loads in brass hulls. Me? just plain ole RST's in the GH.

Bruce, something bad is happening to the quail throughout Texas. There's a die off in many areas and it is not due to weather or food. Probably some disease. It's sudden and widespread. Many regions in August and September reported large numbers of birds and today not a one can be found. Our ranch southeast of Lubbock has suffered this fate. Yesterday morning we hunted my cousin's ranch north of Alanreed (70 miles east of Amarillo) and I'd call the numbers very poor. Mike's country north of Clarendon (65 miles southeast) is still quite good but he's got a concerned frown on his forehead. Dunno. The dean of Texas quail researchers, Dale Rollins, is frantically trying to identify the problem. One possibility is West Nile Virus. Sorta makes sense. Stay tuned.......

Heading to southwest Kansas in January? You need a gun bearer? Or a fairly decent beater?

Here's the results of yesterday. Oh, we only shoot cock birds. Took me a long time to teach Mike to discern sex in 1/100th of a second but he's getting pretty good now.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/flintchip/IMG_2674.jpg

[Richard Flanders]

The fact that Pauls gun survived more than one round at that pressure is a tribute to the strength of the gun and a corroborates Sherman's testing. Sounds like he's a lucky guy.

Nice picture Joe!

That IS a sad story Jay.:crying:

[Jay Gardner]

That IS a sad story Jay.:crying:

Indeed. Truly tragic, in fact. Hoping one of my benevolent Parker brethren will take pity on me and offer me a similar gun at a reasonable price.......:rolleyes:

[Eric Eis]

Indeed. Truly tragic, in fact. Hoping one of my benevolent Parker brethren will take pity on me and offer me a similar gun at a reasonable price.......:rolleyes:

Jay that was not even close to a reasonable price, that was a steal :shock:
Eric

[Jay Gardner]

Oh, I know and I would never expect one of our brothers to part with such a treasure at such a low price.

[Dean Romig]

"Opening Day" would know..... :whistle:

[Bruce Day]

Joe Woods, thanks for the update on Texas quail. Texas quail shooting is a whole culture from the Panhandle to Kingsville and you folks take it seriously. Quail numbers are on the increase up here, hopefully its very temporary in Texas and the problem can be solved.

The best thing the little 16 had going for it was that it was in unbutchered original condition. Sounds like its doing well by you. I had run a lot of Rem Action cleaner through it from externally but sounds like there was no better way than to take it apart and clean it.

Glad to see you shooting only the male quail. Folks may have thought I was joking but it can be done but just looking for the head and concentrating on only that target.

Best regards.

[Francis Morin]

A proof house here? Unless it was mandated by the gummint I don't think we'll ever see one. I for one, would never subject any of my guns, Damascus or fluid steel to the extremes that a proof house might. I don't think in the ten or fifteen years I have remaining to shoot and hunt I could ever equal the stress using 7,500 p.s.i. loads I put upon my guns that one visit to a proof house would. Thanks, but no thanks. I in part agree with George Lander, I shoot a Damascus 12 PH made in 1904- either with RST 1 oz. 2.5" shells or Rem STS or AA lite- 1 & 1/8 oz. 1200 fps or less 2 &3/4"- with the caveat that I had Master Gunsmith Brad B check it over carefully first. This is "in lieu" of a formal proof house, IMO!!

But I also am "reading into" Dean Romig's posting and if I am over-reaching, Dean please understand- BUT a Federal Proof House- wouldn't each and every gun be traced back by serial number and description to the owner who sent it in for "proof"? Could this also lead into the "tacit" gun registration and possible later confiscation the current Adm. at 1600 PA Ave- wants-

Besides the NRA American Rifleman article on the 1911-A-1 Colt and the CMOH awarded to those who used same in combat with Valor- another issue profiled Iain Harrison- former British SAS Airborne sniper- now involved in other shooting venues here- and his prized handguns, both defensive and match target- he had to turn in due to Parliament enacting such a measure after a madman used handguns to kill children at Dunblane-- Common sense, from my point of view, says few of us will saw off the barrels on a 12 Trojan and use same to hold up a 7-11 store-

Of course, we can always consider the "Plan B" brother Lester suggests- perhaps a nice widow in East Bumblebucky Heights has a 12 or 10 32" Damascus barreled Parker with a fishtail top lever that has been gathering dust bunnies under her sette. Were she to sent it to me for proper 'disposal', and just for the insured shipping costs, I would not only tip the UPS driver, but gladly enroll her in a Fruit of the Month Club or other annual gifting program- Does Harry & David still operate "out in Medford, Oregon" or like Lawrence Welk, is that now a thing of the past?:whistle::bigbye:

[Bruce Day]

Francis, since you asked, you will be pleased to know that I have given your mailing and email address to Harry & David for fruit mailings and to Columbia Records for all special offers for Lawrence Welk and Lennon Sisters music.

Enjoy, and no need to thank me.

[Jay Gardner]

"Opening Day" would know..... :whistle:

Indeed.:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Eric Eis]

Yeap I would know :crying: and I wish I could find deals like that..:banghead:
Eric

[Francis Morin]

Nice to have friends in the right places. The late Lawrence Welk and SD and pheasants- things that make our heartland great-- good luck with the winter season Roosters- about 1978 ish- after Christmas went to hunt for the week between the holidays with a USMC buddy in Manhattan, KS- balmy weather, just as we are having here now- snow, mud, lotsa milo and picked corn- bunnies, quail, some roosters (pretty spooky by then) and even had a female coyote charge me in a uncut milo field-

I thought it was a stray German Shepard at first- but my buddy who was behind me and couldn't safely shoot- yelled- "Yoteeee- shoot it- so I did (with my 12 ga. M12)- back then a female coyote was about $40 bounty, a male about $25- so our farmer host got the "dinero"-- He told us that after the bird season ended- maybe late Jan?? back then- they group hunted coyotes and foxes for the bounty money- organized drives, etc.:bigbye:

[Mike Shepherd]

Glad to see you shooting only the male quail. Folks may have thought I was joking but it can be done but just looking for the head and concentrating on only that target.

I don't doubt that it can be done but I know absolutely my shooting student Joe Wood can't do it. On those rare occasions he downed a bird I always knew it wasn't the one he was shooting at.

Best,

Mike

[Bruce Day]

I don't doubt that it can be done but I know absolutely my shooting student Joe Wood can't do it. On those rare occasions he downed a bird I always knew it wasn't the one he was shooting at.

Best,

Mike

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Joe posted the pictures of the cock quail, so I thought he shot them. You mean you did? That scalawag! You mean he con't be trusted? Did he go out and buy dead quail?

Now Joe says that you are the shooting student and you call Joe your shooting student. Am I confused or am I being Texased?

[Mike Shepherd]

Joe hasn't killed four Bobs total in this century. I bring him along to haul dog water, remove sand burrs from the paws, take pictures, and clean birds. He is actually the perfect guest on my lease.

Best,

Mike

Edit: Another good reason to bring him; He doesn't know anything about bird dogs and so he thinks mine are great and brags on them.

[Richard Flanders]

Nice to know you're loved and needed, eh Joe??!:rolleyes:

[Joe Wood]

For those of you who have outgrown their training wheels, sometimes I feel like a Shmoo in Little Abner......jest don't get no repect 'n git kicked around.

P.S. 'n I got a powerful better nose than Mike's worthless turd hounds. They're great pointing turkeys 'n armadillos cause they kin see 'em.

[Joe Wood]

The best thing the little 16 had going for it was that it was in unbutchered original condition. Sounds like its doing well by you. I had run a lot of Rem Action cleaner through it from externally but sounds like there was no better way than to take it apart and clean it. Best regards.

Bruce, David Yale told me he had never seen a gun so gummed up that still worked. He was very surprised it did. Seems to me the only thing squirting cleaner into a gun would do is soak the stock with crud 'n oil. Just MHO.

[Paul Harm]

I blew up a 1889 Remington with twist barrels. By mistake I was useing 92grs of PB instead of Pyrodex. Got to station 2 on the skeet field and on the second pair the left barrel let go with the shell sticking out of the chamber. So it took 4 shots to destory it. I was lucky, it only took 24 stiches to put the flap of skin hanging down back in place. Sent the shells to be tested and was told they were at 25,000psi. Now I have ONE press ONLY for black powder. A week latter I bought my first Parker - a hammer gun with laminate barrels and a week after that another Remington just like the deceased one. And yes I thought about the blown one the first time I shot the "new" Remington. But knowing it was me and not the gun I continue to shoot damascus barrel SxS's. Out of the 10 guns only two have regular steel barrels, the other eight have damascus. Paul

[Richard Flanders]

92gr of PB? You are a lucky fellow Paul. I blew the cylinder of a very nice Colt SAA .45 clean in half once from accidentally double charging some cases. Impressive. The middle round cooked the adjacent two off and the top of the cylinder just disappeared into the woods somewhere. The top strap was humped up pretty good but not broken. The frame was repairable in my book but Colt refused to touch it so I traded it off in return for gunsmithing services on a replacement SAA but kept the cylinder and to this day I put it on the bench next to me as a reminder EVERY time I reload pistol.... and I did that in about 1981.

[Paul Harm]

Sounds like the glove that's ripped in half sitting on top of my mill as a reminder NOT to wear gloves around a mill. I was skaking so bad I just sat there looking at the mill and glove for about a half hour. Paul

[Richard Flanders]

I think I'd have that blown Parker mounted on the wall right above the reloading press...

[Bill Murphy]

If I had that big a flap of skin to be stitched, I don't think I would have it put on my hand. Paul, we have heard the PB story before and feel for you. Referring to the mill story, have you seen the video of the guy with the concrete drill?

[Robert Nikkel]

My wife and I both have DHE's; her's is a 1905 with #2 frame and 32" barrels that were cut down by Pachmayer (1930's) to 27" - so no chokes! My gun is a 1910, #2 frame and 32" barrels (full & full) that are not cut down; both have english stocks (factory originals), and both have PGCA letters. We have a GHE #2 frame damascus barrel set (Mod & Full), which I would like to let my dear Cyndee use on her DHE for hunting. Would someone(s) with knowledge let us know the wisdom of my desire (don't know the s/n on the barrel set, but I could dig it out, if need be). Thanks for your reply(s), Robert Nikkel, PGCA member #3186.

[Steve Huffman]

Do They fit ? Bet not. If they do your a day late you should of played the lottery last night .

[Dave Suponski]

Robert, The first thing I would do is to have the barrel wall thickness checked by a proven Parker familiar gunsmith. Are the barrels the same frame size as the gun you want to fit them to? Where are you located? We can help you locate a good gunsmith. Not every barrel set can be fitted even if it is the same frame size....just rambling here....:rolleyes:

[Robert Nikkel]

Autumn, GHE damascus barrels are #2 frame size. Haven't measured them for wall thickness, nor have I tried to put them on the DHE #2 receiver. I'm in the Denver area, and member of the Rocky Mountain Vintagers. Thanks for your reply, Robert

[Dean Romig]

Robert, a word of caution. Before attempting to fit a set of barrels from one gun to another, remove the cocking hook from the barrel lug. These are the words of experience.

[calvin humburg]

Can I hear the rest of the story Dean.

[Dean Romig]

Calvin, I've done it twice. ou would think I would have learned the first time but not me!!
Couldn't get the barrels off without removing the buttstock and the floorplate and very tediously reaching in with a dentist's pick to unhook the cocking hook from the cocking crank.

I will NEVER do it again without first removing the cocking hook from the barrel lug.

An ounce of prevention is worth a TON of cure.

[David Lien]

"Damn good advice":)

[Eric Eis]

" I will NEVER do it again without first removing the cocking hook from the barrel lug.

An ounce of prevention is worth a TON of cure. "

Yeap Dean, been there, done that, too. Eric

[Harry Collins]

I had a set of #1 frame 16 gauge damascus barrels that fit right on a PH #1 framed 12 gauge with beat up Twist barrels. Having screwed this operation up on another Parker, I did remove the cocking hook and the barrels dropped right in. I was amazed. I swapped the cocking hooks with the Twist barrels and put the forend on and the gun cocked and I was able to remove the barrels. I was double barrel amazed. I had a set of #2 frame Damascus barrels that looked like they might work (after removing the cocking hook) on the frame of the sacrificed barrels for "Finding Out for Myself". I sent them to Brad Bachelder and what a job he did of fitting. Brad redid the Damascus as well. Can't wait to get it back from the stocker.

Harry

[Fred Preston]

Done that too; but, managed to remove the hook with the breech open and the barrels on the gun.

[Francis Morin]

92gr of PB? You are a lucky fellow Paul. I blew the cylinder of a very nice Colt SAA .45 clean in half once from accidentally double charging some cases. Impressive. The middle round cooked the adjacent two off and the top of the cylinder just disappeared into the woods somewhere. The top strap was humped up pretty good but not broken. The frame was repairable in my book but Colt refused to touch it so I traded it off in return for gunsmithing services on a replacement SAA but kept the cylinder and to this day I put it on the bench next to me as a reminder EVERY time I reload pistol.... and I did that in about 1981.:)Wow- Harry are lucky. I am an occasional BP shooter- have used some 2.5" red paper English BP factory loads in my 12 PH with 30" Twist barrels- love the acrid smell afterwards. I have a 1861 Colt Navy .36- cal. wheelgun- and I always use Crisco to cover the balls after ramming them home in the cylinder-- A friend has a similar Colt, but a Army series in .44 cal- he forgot that once and had a "chain fire occur"- like me, he always wears safety glasses, a heavy glove and ear muffs when shooting our handguns. Just picked up a nice Colt 1911-A-1 .45ACP Officer's Model- 3.5" barrel, shorter 6 rd. std. magazine, so 7 with one
uppa da pipe"-- tuned by CA pistolsmith Bob Chow years ago-- it will now be my carry weapon instead of Dad's old .38 cal Det. Special "snubbie"- flatter, less bulk from the cyliner, and a tad more stopping power for the druggies that might want to mug me--

Mills and neckties, gloves, radial arm drill presses, lathes, etc- The first day I apprenticed at my grandfather's machine shop, back in the day when Starrett, Brown and Sharpe, Lufkin, Stanley, Parker & Snow, Nicholson, etc. were "King"- he showed me a heavy rafter beam-- the shop was built in 1995 near Canal St. in The Queen City--and a lathe chuck key was embedded into the splintered wood- some "rookie" left the chuck key in the jaw and hit the "go button" on a LeBlond compound lathe-The rookie was lucky, had it been in forward instead of reverse, that key would have drilled right through his head and most likely- ruined his day--Never ever get too comfortable or relaxed around machine tools or firearms--:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:

[Bill Murphy]

Blind Dog, you are a lucky guy. Some screws can be removed from the hook while the barrels are on the gun. Some screws just don't quite give us enough room to remove them. I have tried dozens of barrels on Parkers without removing the hook, finally got caught with a stuck set about three years ago. I had to remove the floor plate and the sear pin and springs to get access. In the process, I took a chip off the corner of the stock below the sear pin while the stock was not supported by my too few hands. After fifty years of playing the odds, I finally got stung.