Which looks better?

[Steven Groh]

I am trying to educate myself as to what constitutes good, better, best.

Am I correct to think that more case color is usually better than less? And deeper, clearer engraving lines are superior to worn and faded lines?

Here are two examples of 12 bore GHEs about 5,000 numbers apart.

8732987331

8733087332

All other elements being equal (which they almost never are), which would you choose, and why?

[Greg Baehman]

With all things being equal, i.e. grade, gauge, wood, dimensions, etc., it will always be the amount of original case color remaining that will drive value and desireability to most Parker collectors.

[Mike Franzen]

The way you’re question is phrased, which looks best is going to be in the eye of the beholder. Some guys like that honest, well worn look. I really like the look of high grade guns that have been used for their intended purpose. Others only like pristine condition. Given the choice between the 2 guns pictured I’d take gun number 2 every time. Gun number 1 looks like the finished was polished off imho.

[Chuck Bishop]

Neither gun is in high condition but so what. They both have character and are nice examples of Parker Brothers shotguns. Assuming general overall good condition, I'd fix the buggered screws and enjoy the guns the way they are.

[Steven Groh]

With all things being equal, i.e. grade, gauge, wood, dimensions, etc., it will always be the amount of original case color remaining that will drive value and desireability to most Parker collectors.

That's what I thought. It would be interesting to see how different people ranked the factors in order of importance, such as, for me it might be:

a) grade ($ budget)
b) gauge (also a budget item)
c) barrel length
d) wall thickness
e) frame size
f) stock dimensions
g) mechanical function/integrity
h) wood fit and figure
i) engraving wear
j) case coloring
k) barrel bluing
l) chokes

[Steven Groh]

The way you’re question is phrased, which looks best is going to be in the eye of the beholder. Some guys like that honest, well worn look. I really like the look of high grade guns that have been used for their intended purpose. Others only like pristine condition. Given the choice between the 2 guns pictured I’d take gun number 2 every time. Gun number 1 looks like the finished was polished off imho.

Sort of sanitized. In order to remove the warts, they removed the character.

[CraigThompson]

I could deal with either of them . I 100% prefer original even if the guns less than 30% . Now with that being said the 8 gauge in my care is totally redone , but I doubt if I could’ve afforded another like it that was let’s say 50% or better .

[Russell E. Cleary]

Steven:

I can’t argue with your list. But, in my humble opinion, I would say that any listing of the elements between A and L would be considerably modified by the attribute of originality, i.e.,

c) are Barrels of original length?

j) is gun RE-case-colored? (as Greg (WILD SKIES) said).

f) is stock tinkered with, including non-factory pads added after-market?

k) are barrels RE-blued?

l) are chokes opened after-market, and not by the factory?

a) even the issue of Grade relates to originality, should the gun have been up-graded.


To illustrate how kaleidoscopic the process of evaluating these qualities can be, here is a 12-gauge DHE that is apparently all original, but not high-condition. All that should complicate the application of the very relevant features you list.

If collecting criteria were easy, who would bother?

[Mike Franzen]

Sort of sanitized. In order to remove the warts, they removed the character.

That’s why most PGCA members will recommend caution about making alterations to the guns. Sometimes it’s necessary to keep the gun functional. Sometimes it’s purely cosmetic. A person can unknowingly reduce the value of a gun because of lack of knowledge / experience. What might seem like a great idea for your gun might backfire. A good policy before doing anything is to post about it here or if you know someone with true expertise talk to them.

[Steven Groh]

Preservation versus conservation versus appreciation (not financial).

[Craig Larter]

I personally would select gun number 2. I like honest used but not abused guns. I try to not buy projects but I will restore poor repairs or damage caused by negligence on a rare gun I desire. Lets say a rare example with better than average condition has multipule rust spots on the barrels and someone cleaned the rust with steel wool causing a big light area on one third of the barrel, I would have that barrel restored by a craftsman capable of producing a factory finish. Everyone has their own opinions and standards. Buy what YOU LIKE!

[Mike Franzen]

Preservation versus conservation versus appreciation (not financial).

That’s a good way to look at it. It’s not very often that alterations will increase the value of your gun - especially in the lower grades. Usually it’s the other way around because quality work ain’t cheap. So when you add the cost of alterations to the cost of the gun you quickly get upside down. Higher grade guns can be a different story..... sometimes. There are collectors here who have taken special Parkers, had them restored professionally and increased their worth. That’s the exception rather than the rule. Most of us who have been at this for awhile have paid our respects to the Parker Graveyard for Unrealized Financial Dreams and left our bouquets of red dollar signs. So my advice to anyone reading this who seriously wants to “Invest” in these guns with the intention of making money is to find someone who is successfully doing it and ask for their advice. If, you want to know how to buy guns and only lose several hundred dollars when it’s time to sell I’m your man - but I ain’t cheap!

[Steven Groh]

I have a dear, dear friend who is in his 94th year, and in the four decades of our acquaintance, I have seen him time and again, buy what I would consider to be a benchmark gun (many makes, including Winchester 21s, Dickson round actions, Westley Richards, Parkers, etc) from a high end dealer, then immediately send it to Jack Rowe, Kirk Merrington, et al to make it more perfect.

After emptying his wallet and waiting many months, he would shoot a box or two of cartridges, show it off for a couple of months, and then lose interest. He would inevitably sell it, usually for less than he paid for it, not to mention the consignment fee.

But he loved the hunt for the perfect gun!

If you can afford it, it's good fun.

But few of us can lose money for sport.

[Brian Dudley]

I cant imagine that, if someone had a choice, anyone would desire worn case colors or worn engraving over high condition.

[Dean Romig]

If anybody thinks they’re going to add to their retirement fund by buying and selling Parkers, or any classic SXS be it American made or from overseas, think again. And the caveat to that is “You don’t make money when you sell them - you make your money when you buy ‘em.”






.

[Alfred Greeson]

Sorry but I'm a little confused. I have a pair of honestly high condition 16's, one VHE and one VH. I have owned both guns for a few years and kept both as I found them. Given that I don't mess with originality, I still want to own a 20 DHE in good condition. Would you let your 16's go to get the 20, or are the 16's the better investment over time?

[Daryl Corona]

Go with the 20.

[Steven Groh]

Sorry but I'm a little confused. I have a pair of honestly high condition 16's, one VHE and one VH. I have owned both guns for a few years and kept both as I found them. Given that I don't mess with originality, I still want to own a 20 DHE in good condition. Would you let your 16's go to get the 20, or are the 16's the better investment over time?

A 20 may be a better investment, but I would still much prefer to shoot a 16.

[Hal Sheets]

Dean is correct, as he so often is. It's just like the livestock business, you make you money on the buy, seldom on the sell.

[Mike Franzen]

Dean is correct, as he so often is. It's just like the livestock business, you make you money on the buy, seldom on the sell.

Please explain how that works.

[Brett Hoop]

The cost you laid down to purchase. Or maybe better stated Bought Right for a good if not discounted price. At least guns you don't have to feed.

[Hal Sheets]

The cost you laid down to purchase. Or maybe better stated Bought Right for a good if not discounted price. At least guns you don't have to feed.

Brett's got it right. You buy your stocker or feeder cattle, weanling pigs or weanling lambs as low as possible, because you can't count on the market being up when your ready to sell. And holding them back, for a better market costs money, out of your pocket.

[Dean Romig]

Please explain how that works.


You simply can’t make any money if you buy too high. That’s all there is to it.

I will say however, that I’ve bought all my Parkers at retail... or at least what the seller wanted.



.

[Stan Hillis]

Many of us would probably have to admit that our best buys, as far as cash outlay goes, were ones where someone contacted us with an offer, out of the blue .......... or that we just stumbled onto ........... and not specific guns that we went looking for and found. Reminds me of the old saying "You'll back over more good luck than you'll ever chase down".

SRH

[Jack Cronkhite]

a) grade ($ budget)
b) gauge (also a budget item)
c) barrel length
d) wall thickness
e) frame size
f) stock dimensions
g) mechanical function/integrity
h) wood fit and figure
i) engraving wear
j) case coloring
k) barrel bluing
l) chokes

I shoot mine and seldom sell. Not seen as dollar investment but an investment in my own pursuit of happiness. For me the most important from the list is d followed by g. I would add condition and alignment of all visible screw heads. When they are not good then I know the gun has been worked on and not by a knowledgeable professional. After those factors are dealt with the fact the gun is a Parker Bros is enough for me to consider depleting my toy budget. Once I have it I will completely disassemble replace anything broken inside clean lube reassemble and shoot, usually with a view to taking home a wild pheasant. Cheers Jack