NH and PH is there a difference ?

[Milton C Starr]

Something I have been wondering about for awhile and I have read conflicting information when I tried researching it . Is there a difference between a NH and PH ? One source said a NH was the same as a PH but stood for the 10 and 8 gauge grade 1s and the PH was the smaller gauges . Which is not true because the PH was made in 10s and 8s also .

Another thing I read was NH was a earlier designation and was dropped when the PH came about , which doesnt seem correct either as both grades were advertised together . Unless that was when they were phasing out the NH to the PH ?

I figured it would be better to just ask here and get to a knowledgeable answer.

One thing I have noticed is NH dont show up as often as the PH guns for sale .
The engraving patterns looks nearly the same as my NH .

[Brian Dudley]

They are effectively the same. It is a bit of a holdout from the early grading system. In the hammer gun days there was a myriad of grade letters for the guns. The gauge and also grip configuration determined the grade. Letters like R, T and U were used for grades, among many others.

The NH was a hammerless 10 or 8g and it came later when the N was dropped as a separate grade that they all just became PH grades. Regardless of gauge.

A study of the grades section of TPS would be worthwhile. As well as period catalogs.

[Milton C Starr]

They are effectively the same. It is a bit of a holdout from the early grading system. In the hammer gun days there was a myriad of grade letters for the guns. The gauge and also grip configuration determined the grade. Letters like R, T and U were used for grades, among many others.

The NH was a hammerless 10 or 8g and it came later when the N was dropped as a separate grade that they all just became PH grades. Regardless of gauge.

A study of the grades section of TPS would be worthwhile. As well as period catalogs.

I have been looking at some Parker catalogs on different sites for sale , I would like to get a earlier one around the time my Parkers was built .

Ive had the idea of picking up a small bore PH to go with my NH 10 ga and they look almost identical besides the frame size of course .


A slightly different question , ive seen a few Parkers listed as PT grade which ive read is not a grade but means plain twist barrels . Which I assume could be either a grade 1 or 0 ?

[Dave Noreen]

From the introduction of the Grade 1 hammerless guns in 1890 into the early 1900s the 12-gauge and smaller gauges were Quality PH with a list price of $65 and the 10-gauge was Quality NH with a list price of $70.

Here are the pages form the "Blue Ink" catalog (circa 1900) which the late Ed Muderlak had reproduced.

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By the catalog that introduces ejectors (circa 1901) it is just the Quality PH with a list price of $65 in all gauges but 8-gauge which is $105. I've never seen an 8-gauge Grade 1 hammerless with the watertable marked NH.

[Milton C Starr]

From the introduction of the Grade 1 hammerless guns in 1890 into the early 1900s the 12-gauge and smaller gauges were Quality PH with a list price of $65 and the 10-gauge was Quality NH with a list price of $70.

Here are the pages form the "Blue Ink" catalog (circa 1900) which the late Ed Muderlak had reproduced.

86294

By the catalog that introduces ejectors (circa 1901) it is just the Quality PH with a list price of $65 in all gauges but 8-gauge which is $105. I've never seen an 8-gauge Grade 1 hammerless with the watertable marked NH.

Ive seen 2 or 3 NH 8 gauges that have sold before . When was the NH grade dropped for the PH ?
There was also 108101 that was listed as a NH 8 gauge and 117160 .

[Dave Noreen]

The Quality NH disappears from the catalogs between 1900 and 1901. From the serial numbers you show, the boys and girls on the factory floor were still stamping Ns on watertables into at least 1904.

108101 and 117160 are listed as a T2 in The Parked Story, page 1003. 128636 isn't on the listing, nor is 157318 Quality PH that I pictured in my earlier 6-frame thread.

[Milton C Starr]

The Quality NH disappears from the catalogs between 1900 and 1901. From the serial numbers you show, the boys and girls on the factory floor were still stamping Ns on watertables into at least 1904.

108101 and 117160 are listed as a T2 in The Parked Story, page 1003. 128636 isn't on the listing, nor is 157318 Quality PH that I pictured in my earlier 6-frame thread.

My NH was ordered was ordered on December 12 1902 and shipped and was delivered June 8th 1903 which seems like a pretty quick time for a custom order .

One seller said there was 29 NH 8 gauges built another claimed only 8 .
Heres one that appears to have the frame blued and someone jewelled the watertable .

https://www.gunsamerica.com/907987848/1903-Parker-8-ga-double-SXS-Grade-NH.htm

Heres the other with 40" barrels
https://www.icollector.com/Extremely-Rare-and-Excellent-Parker-Brothers-NH-Grade-Side-by-Side-8-Gauge-Hammerless-Shotgun-with-4_i12221577

and
https://www.icollector.com/Very-Rare-Parker-Grade-NH-Damascus-Double-Barrel-8-Gauge-Hammerless-Shotgun_i9966791

If 128636 isnt recorded wouldnt that mean its a 40" barreled gun thats not listed with the known 40" 8 gauges ?



I was confused at first because I seen a PH 10 ga that was made in 1902 but it was a few thousand serial #s before my NH ordered at the end of 1902 .
So I guess a way to look at it the 1902-1904 NH guns were when Parkers was transitioning to only PH grade 1s ?

[Dean Romig]

I would have thought a T2 would indicate a Grade 2 with Twist Steel barrels.....?





.

[Rick Losey]

the PH 10 I sold a while ago here lettered as an NH -

serial number 144964 ordered and shipped in late 1907

barrels were twist

PS;

water table and letter

[Kevin McCormack]

Who reproduced the "Clown" catalog that Dan Cote is now offering?

[Bill Murphy]

I assume Dan did it. He owns a publishing company. I don't know which original he used.

[Dean Romig]

I'm pretty sure Daniel did or had it printed through the publisher who does his printing of magazines, books, prints, et.c.





.

[Dave Noreen]

the PH 10 I sold a while ago here lettered as an NH -

86304

I would suggest that that Order Book No. 73 does not state it is a Quality NH. Order Book No. 73 very likely lists something like 1 - 10/32 Twist PG Hammls and from that the author of the letter interpreted Quality NH not taking into account the time period. The letter also states the price of $65 and when the Quality NH was actually being used it was $70.

Letter on my Quality NH from 1894 --

86305

listing the $70 price.

[Chuck Bishop]

Parker S/N 144964 is technically a PH, not an NH. The 1905 catalog still shows the NH at $70.00. I don't have a 1906 catalog. The 1907 catalog dropped the NH line so all the grade 1 guns were PH's for $65.00. If the owner of 144964 want's a corrected letter, let me know.

[Rick Losey]

thanks Chuck

no need, i no longer own the gun

[Dave Noreen]

I don't have many Parker Bros. catalogs, but after the circa 1900 "Blue Ink" catalog which is the only one I have that shows the Quality NH, this allegedly 1901-02 which introduces automatic ejectors doesn't.

86308

Just $65 and the $105 for the 8-gauge.

Cornell Pubs is offering this same catalog on ebay and saying it is circa 1910 --

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-c1910-Gun-Ejectors-Catalog/370791492453?hash=item5654e52b65:g:BEcAAOSws6ZaCkb d

I suspect they have a 1 and a 0 transposed.

[Milton C Starr]

I don't have many Parker Bros. catalogs, but after the circa 1900 "Blue Ink" catalog which is the only one I have that shows the Quality NH, this allegedly 1901-02 which introduces automatic ejectors doesn't.

86308

Just $65 and the $105 for the 8-gauge.

I found a place online that sells Parker reproduction catalogs for $15 and they have a 1902 one , I should buy some I suppose would be interesting to have a few different ones .