28 gauge Parker choke boring/testing

[Garry L Gordon]

I'm reading about Parker choke boring as I gear up to measure/re-measure barrels, an ongoing Summer project of mine. In my reading I see that Ed Muderlak claims that all .410s and "some" 28s were targeted to measure chokes at 30 yards, rather than 40. I've not found any supporting information in TPS yet, but our home page FAQ section says that it's "possible."

I only have one Parker 28, a DHE grade, and the research letter states it was choked full and full (no pellet count). My initial (and quick) choke measuring back when I first purchased the gun revealed chokes a bit more open than the typical choke chart (again, the one posted on our home page FAQ link) suggests for a 28. However, if Parker did indeed target/pattern at 30 yards, wouldn't the constriction be less (compared to the chart) than if they targeted at 40 yards?

(I've not patterned my 28, and have shot it using spreader loads on the several occasions I've used it, so beyond a not-so-careful measuring, I don't know much beyond the fact that it kills quail if I point it well.)

**I'm curious if those of you who have original chokes in your 28s, and have a research letter for them, have measured those chokes and compared them with the typical choke constriction charts. If so, what are your findings?**

[Bill Murphy]

You didn't tell us what the FAQ says about 28 gauge chokes, or what your choke constriction is, but full choke Parker 28s in my experience have been .020.

[Garry L Gordon]

The chart lists .022. I assume it is for 40 yards, although it's not explicit.

[Garry L Gordon]

Sorry...and my initial measuring came out about .017".

[Bruce Day]

Parker’s brochure The Small Bore Shot Gun used this:

A killing circle is that which places six shot pellets on a medium size bird ( I don’t know what bird) . A killing circle concept is more sensible for a hunter than just a 40 yard 30 inch circle pattern where it takes only one number 8 shot to break a clay.

[Garry L Gordon]

The table (thanks, Bruce) certainly speaks to the lethality of 28s within a reasonable range. I pulled my copy of the Small Bore Shot Gun out and looked to see if there was any clarification for choking 28s or distances at which the guns were targeted -- none that I found. The table in the back lists both the 3/4 and 5/8 oz. loads for the 28 and has percentage of #7 shot in a 30 inch circle at **40 yards** I believe the brochure is from the late 1910s or early 1920s(?).

So is there any proof that "some" (as Muderlak suggests) 28s were patterned
at 30 yards rather than 40? If so, to achieve a full choke pattern (65% using the brochure number) wouldn't the constriction be less than the .022" figure from many published tables? It seems logical to me that it would. And if they did use 30 yards for some pattern testing, when the records say "full choke" (with no pellet count), what might the constriction be? Just curious.

[todd allen]

I only have one Parker 28, a DHE grade, . . . .
Only one Parker 28, a DHE?
You ain't getting any pity from me
:)

[Garry L Gordon]

Only one Parker 28, a DHE?
You ain't getting any pity from me
:)

Did my wife put you up to this post?:rotf:

[Bruce Day]

Garry , there is proof for patterning at 25 yards but none that I know for 30.

As to the second part of your question , consider this. I do not know the answer directly , but I can provide reasoning to an educated guess. The tightest choke 20 ga that I know of is in a C that I own, .028 “ , certainly a tight choke when a usual 20 ga full choke is about .020. The .028 in a 20 is a 4.55 percent choke.

Your 28 ga at .022 “ constriction is a 4.0 percent constriction. If it were constricted to 4.55 it would be a .024 “ constriction. We know that as gauge reduces, it requires less constriction of the barrel inside diameter to achieve the same or similar percent of pellets on target , that is why full choke on a 12 is .030 or less and full choke on a 20 is .020.

So , your 28 at .022 is certainly full choked and may be at the effective limit of choke boring , any more and the jamming of shot at the constriction could result in more flyers and a broader pattern.

[Chuck Bishop]

Here is the stock book information for a VHE 28ga. If you look at the far right, the patterning was done using size 8 shot in a 30" circle at 30 yards. I'm not sure if they always used these measurements. If you look at the gun directly above 201921, it's a 20ga. using a 30" circle at 40 yards, and the gun below was a 16ga. gun also using a 30" circle at 40 yards. I wanted to see what they used for a .410 but from the data in TPS, the earliest .410 was 215833, well after Parker changed their stock book from a horizontal format to a vertical format. The vertical format doesn't show patterning info.

It would be interesting to see what a hang tag would say was used on a 28ga. or .410. Maybe they used a generic hang tag that all read 30" at 40 yards or used a hang tag specifically for 28ga. and .410. Anybody got one?

My 28ga. has .018 and .022 chokes. IM and full.

[Dean Romig]

It would only make sense that PB would pattern a 28 bore at it's average effective distance and 30 yards sounds about right. Sure, we have made good (lucky?) shots with our 28's out to forty yards or so but that doesn't mean a responsible gun manufacturer should pattern the gun at such a range.





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[Garry L Gordon]

Thanks to all who have replied so far. So, based on the entry that Chuck shared, Ed M. was correct that at least some 28s were choke patterned at 30 yards.

So, if your 28 was patterned at 30 rather than 40 yards, it would likely have less constriction (at least slightly?) than one patterned at the standard 40 yards. I would really like to see the pellet counts for some 28s.

[Bill Murphy]

Pellet counts and patterning procedures for .410s, 28s, and 8s were available to the 1998 PGCA Research Committee, but we just didn't think about putting that information together. Our copying machines just wouldn't handle the right side of a Stock Book page.

[Jeff Kuss]

My 28 is choked .012 right and .020 left.
It letters as rh patterned 180 pellets and lh 200 pellets of #8 at 30 yards.

[Dave Noreen]

The table in the back lists both the 3/4 and 5/8 oz. loads for the 28 and has percentage of #7 shot in a 30 inch circle at **40 yards** I believe the brochure is from the late 1910s or early 1920s(?).

Our North American ammunition companies only offered 5/8 ounce 28-gauge loads until early 1931. Bulk smokeless Powder --

85506

85504

85505

Dense smokeless Powder, Infallible or Ballistite --

85507

Dense smokeless Powder, Walsrode --

85508

In early 1931, Western Cartridge Co. introduced the 3/4 ounce, high velocity, progressive burning powder, Super-X 28-gauge load put up in their 2 7/8 inch FIELD shell --

85510

85509

[charlie cleveland]

I like the looks of that super x load...I have never been able to get that 2 7/8 length 28 ga box of shells in my collection yet...charlie

[Dave Noreen]

In the early years of the 28-gauge here in North America Chas. Askins wrote about hand loading 2 1/8 drams of bulk smokeless powder and 3/4 ounce of shot in the 2 7/8 inch hull for his 6 3/4 pound 30-inch Parker Bros. 28-gauge.

[Bill Murphy]

Some of the Askins' guns have been located, and others will be known by serial number, but what about that long legged 28?

[Chuck Bishop]

I'm not blaiming the committee that copied the stock books but a more careful placement on the copier would have made the entire patterning information visable. Some copieed pages show all the info, some only a portion, and some not at all. The xerox copier was only 17" wide and the stock books were probably at least another 2". There is even more info past the patterning data. Maybe Bill can tell us what it contained. It was a long and big job copying those books.

[Chuck Bishop]

Here is a good example of what I mean about how the placement of the book on the copier was critical. The book could have been placed just a little more to the left and still copied the first left hand column which tells the grade and barrel steel. Also, note that the pellet counts are always ending in either a 0 or a 5. Did they really count those pellets or just guesstimate? They probably just rounded up or down based on a guess. All those 12 gauges in a row couldn't have all been 250 pellets!!!

[Garry L Gordon]

Reading TPS suggests that Chuck is correct and they did not count pellets, but rather bored to a choke percentage and verified at the patterning plate.

I'm sure sorry that we don't have all of the records, but I'm also very grateful for the work done by those who copied and produced what we have. It must have been a tremendous task.

[Garry L Gordon]

Our North American ammunition companies only offered 5/8 ounce 28-gauge loads until early 1931. Bulk smokeless Powder --

85506

85504

85505

Dense smokeless Powder, Infallible or Ballistite --

85507

Dense smokeless Powder, Walsrode --

85508

In early 1931, Western Cartridge Co. introduced the 3/4 ounce, high velocity, progressive burning powder, Super-X 28-gauge load put up in their 2 7/8 inch FIELD shell --

85510

85509

Dave, the brochure that I cited was from 1921 according to TPS (it's number 64 in figure 17.10 on page 760). Any ideas how this reference reconciles with the 1931 Western introduction of the heavier load you mention? Could another maker have loaded the 3/4 oz. loads? Or maybe Parker reprinted the brochure with updates later?

[Dean Romig]

They couldn’t?





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[Dave Noreen]

Dave, the brochure that I cited was from 1921 according to TPS (it's number 64 in figure 17.10 on page 760). Any ideas how this reference reconciles with the 1931 Western introduction of the heavier load you mention? Could another maker have loaded the 3/4 oz. loads? Or maybe Parker reprinted the brochure with updates later?

I suspect Parker Bros. knew what gun cranks were loading on their own. As what I mentioned about Chas. Askins. I've seen Parker Bros. paper mentioning 1 ounce 20-gauge loads well before any of our major ammunition companies were loading 1 ounce 20-gauge loads.

I have access to the catalogs of Western Cartridge Co., Peters Cartridge Co., Union Metallic Cartridge Co./Remington, Winchester and U.S. Cartridge Co. and I don't see it. Our major ammunition companies pretty much marched in lock step as to the loads they offered. They were essentially a trust.

[Garry L Gordon]

I suspect Parker Bros. knew what gun cranks were loading on their own. As what I mentioned about Chas. Askins. I've seen Parker Bros. paper mentioning 1 ounce 20-gauge loads well before any of our major ammunition companies were loading 1 ounce 20-gauge loads.

I have access to the catalogs of Western Cartridge Co., Peters Cartridge Co., Union Metallic Cartridge Co./Remington, Winchester and U.S. Cartridge Co. and I don't see it. Our major ammunition companies pretty much marched in lock step as to the loads they offered. They were essentially a trust.

Interesting! It would be nice to have access to the "backroom" goings on at both Parker Brothers and the cartridge manufacturers.

[Bill Murphy]

The order for my old #2 frame 20 specified 3 dram, 1 ounce loads. So Parker Brothers apparently approved of the use of such loads, even though they were not commercially available. The Small Bore booklet also mentions the testing of load heavier than were commercially available. Some of the Stock Book entries mentioned by Chuck may be shown in The Parker Story. I agree that the pattern (pellet) counts posted in the Stock Books were not actually counted, but eyeballed.

[Dave Noreen]

Of the hang-tags I've saved pictures of up into the 211xxx range they give pellet counts on the tag. The next one I have is in the 232xxx range and is stamped MOD and FULL. Similarly, early A.H. Fox Gun Co. hang-tags gave pellet counts and later ones were just marked with the choke designation.