Dry-fire Trojan

[John Bastiani]

Got my close to mint 1926 20 gauge Trojan today and had it apart to check it out and do some cleaning(didn't need much). After getting it back together is it alright to dry fire or should I use snap caps to release the pressure from being cocked?

[Jim DiSpagno]

You won’t damage a Parker by dry firing it but if it makes you more comfortable, by all means use snap caps.

[John Knobelsdorf II]

The springs are not the issue. It is the stop plate for ejectors that are a reason to have snap caps.

As I see in an example hang tag:

"If the gun is fitted with our automatic ejector, it is an excellent plan to have in the gun two exploded shells, so that when the gun is opened and the injectors operated they will have some work to do; other-wise the force of the blow occasioned by the ejectors being thrown against the stop plate tends to batter them and injure the plate."

Quoting from the far right tag, final sentence:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50874&d=1477448771

[Pete Lester]

Since your Trojan does not have ejectors dry firing should not be a problem, that's because a Parker does not have firing pins, only hammers. If you should ever dry fire an ejector gun without empty hulls or snap caps open the gun very slowly and press your thumb gently against the ejectors before they fire and this will provide the needed shock absorber. Perhaps Brian Dudley could give some advice on whether your gun should be stored in "relaxed" position. I was told by a gunsmith I trust the design of my Miroko Charles Daly 20ga O/U was such it should be stored with the hammers in relaxed position. It's the only gun I have ever done this for. Knock on wood I have never experienced a gun break a firing pin or hammer/hammer spring.

[Dean Romig]

Even when the hammers on a Parker hammerless shotgun have been dropped the springs are never completely relaxed - they remain under tension so it really doesn’t matter if you drop the hammers or not.

The hammers are conical in shape and the ‘cone’ terminates in a rounded point (firing pin per se) and the conical hammers drop into corresponding conical recesses in the frame. Dry firing a Parker hammerless shotgun does absolutely no harm.





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[Bill Murphy]

I have many Parkers that have been stored "cocked" for well over 100 years without any breakage. Maybe something will break in the second 100 years.

[John Bastiani]

The springs are not the issue. It is the stop plate for ejectors that are a reason to have snap caps.

As I see in an example hang tag:

"If the gun is fitted with our automatic ejector, it is an excellent plan to have in the gun two exploded shells, so that when the gun is opened and the injectors operated they will have some work to do; other-wise the force of the blow occasioned by the ejectors being thrown against the stop plate tends to batter them and injure the plate."

Quoting from the far right tag, final sentence:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50874&d=1477448771
Thanks for everybodys post! Does anybody know where I can get a original hangtag like the one on the far right?

[Dean Romig]

The PGCA is in possession of some hang tags that were found upstairs in the office building on Cherry Street in Meriden. The chances of a hang tag corresponding to your gun’s serial number are very slim but possible I suppose.





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[John Bastiani]

I would think that the "Directions for use" hangtag would be fairly common and packaged with every gun. Is the PGCA selling any of the hangtags that were found and whom do you contact?

[Dean Romig]

Yes, but only to those who have a gun with one of the serial numbers for which a hang tag exists.

I don't know who is holding those hang tags.





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[Tom Wooden]

Please go to the Research Tab, the information related to the hang tags are in that section. I have also copied it below:

Parker Original Work Order Tags - A number of original Parker Bros. work order tags were found in the old Parker Bros. office building in Meriden CT by a PGCA committee. The Original Parker Bros.'s work order tags will be made available by contacting:

PGCA Research Committee

P. O. Box 126502

Harrisburg, PA 17112

PGCA members who are the actual owner of the gun to which the tag applies (if such tags exist) . A photo of the gun, making sure the serial number is visible, should accompany each request. These tags are available to PGCA members ONLY and the cost for each tag is as follows:

Trojan to GH grade - $100.00

DH to BH grade - $200.00

AH and above - $300.00

"Click here" to view a complete list of available Parker Bros. Work Order Tags.

[Craig Budgeon]

I think Tony Galazan had blank hanging tags for sale and if I recall correctly they were originals. You may dry fire a hammerless Parker but since hammer guns have firing pins you may want to consider using snap caps.

[Mike Poindexter]

FWIW, I have always been told that guns with a coil mainspring, such as Parkers, do not have to worry about the springs taking a set like some leaf spring actions, i.e. British sidelocks and LC Smiths.

[John Bastiani]

Please go to the Research Tab, the information related to the hang tags are in that section. I have also copied it below:

Parker Original Work Order Tags - A number of original Parker Bros. work order tags were found in the old Parker Bros. office building in Meriden CT by a PGCA committee. The Original Parker Bros.'s work order tags will be made available by contacting:

PGCA Research Committee

P. O. Box 126502

Harrisburg, PA 17112

PGCA members who are the actual owner of the gun to which the tag applies (if such tags exist) . A photo of the gun, making sure the serial number is visible, should accompany each request. These tags are available to PGCA members ONLY and the cost for each tag is as follows:

Trojan to GH grade - $100.00

DH to BH grade - $200.00

AH and above - $300.00

"Click here" to view a complete list of available Parker Bros. Work Order Tags.
My guns serial number isn"t on the list but thanks anyway.

[Dean Romig]

In about 1960 or so when my friend and I discovered his late grandfather’s Trojan in his family’s cellar tucked in behind the chimney, and in its original canvas case the hang tags were still with it but were so oil soaked and dilapidated and completely illegible, we just rossed them in the trash.





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[charlie cleveland]

boy that was a great find...dean I bet that really excited you and your friend...charlie

[Chuck Bishop]

The PGCA doesn't have Hang Tags, we have Work Order Tags. Totally different tags. Work order tags were made after the gun was finished production and were not shipped with the gun. They gave build specifications. Hang Tags were filled out separately and were attached to the gun when shipped

Edited

The more I think about the WOT's I think the tags were made at the office and the info from the Order Book was written on the WOT. The WOT was then taken to the factory and the gun built according to what the tag said. I doubt the Order books ever left the office building. They were constantly being used. Parts were picked, S/N established, then as each procedure was finished, entered into the stock book.

[Dean Romig]

boy that was a great find...dean I bet that really excited you and your friend...charlie


Charlie, I had that Trojan on semi-permanent loan for the next four years when my family moved to a town many miles away and I had to give it back. But during the time I had it I shot pheasants, woodcock, ducks and rabbits with it. I learned to shoot a sxs on that gun even though it was too big for me in the first year or two that I had it.

I wrote about that Trojan in Parker Pages many years ago in my story “The Last Trojan Pheasant.”

I'll start a new thread with a "reprint" of that story.





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[John Bastiani]

The PGCA doesn't have Hang Tags, we have Work Order Tags. Totally different tags. Work order tags were made after the gun was finished production and were not shipped with the gun. They gave build specifications. Hang Tags were filled out separately and were attached to the gun when shipped

Edited

The more I think about the WOT's I think the tags were made at the office and the info from the Order Book was written on the WOT. The WOT was then taken to the factory and the gun built according to what the tag said. I doubt the Order books ever left the office building. They were constantly being used. Parts were picked, S/N established, then as each procedure was finished, entered into the stock book.
You would think that through the years that a few of the Parker "Direction for use hangtags" would come up for sale. After collecting Winchesters for over 40 years-I have found several original hangtags.

[Dean Romig]

Chuck, is there the exact same information on both the work order tags and the book entries with no variations?





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[John Bastiani]

The PGCA doesn't have Hang Tags, we have Work Order Tags. Totally different tags. Work order tags were made after the gun was finished production and were not shipped with the gun. They gave build specifications. Hang Tags were filled out separately and were attached to the gun when shipped

Edited

The more I think about the WOT's I think the tags were made at the office and the info from the Order Book was written on the WOT. The WOT was then taken to the factory and the gun built according to what the tag said. I doubt the Order books ever left the office building. They were constantly being used. Parts were picked, S/N established, then as each procedure was finished, entered into the stock book.
Sir: When I purchased my Parker I received 3 letters with the gun and two are typed giving the specifications of the gun from the PGCA(2001) and signed by Mr. Ronald Kirby. The third letter is handwritten and list every detail and specification about the gun. It has the letters RYNY in the bottom right hand corner. Is this letter taken from the original factory ledgers and called the stock book or the order book?

[Chuck Bishop]

John, I would have to have the S/N of your gun. I can tell you that we started archiving research letters in 2004 and when searching for your name found none. Ron Kirby did the first letters but didn't archive them. Mark Conrad took over from Ron and did them for about 8 years, then I took over the letters in 2012. Mark started archiving in about 2004. The Order Books ended December 1919 so if there is Order Book information in your letter, it would have had to been made prior to 1920.

Give me your S/N.
Chuck

[Chuck Bishop]

Dean, I was all excited to dig into your question but when I looked at the WOT's, except for the real early ones which are real small and extremely dirty, most of the WOT's are in the range of 220k to 235k range, well after the order books ended in 1919. I did match up a bunch of them with the stock books but the stock books don't really give special instructions that the order book entry would. What I did find most interesting is that many of the WOT's showed a recoil pad where the stock books would never mention the butt treatment so the assumption would be that the gun had the standard butt for the grade of the gun. There are a lot of guns out there that we assumed they were retrofitted with a recoil pad when that was not the case. The large WOT's (there were 3 different sizes) many times would have interesting things written on the back side of the card. I've seen leather recoil pads, straight ribs, rounded recoil pad for a woman, etc. Real interesting reading. I think I'll start another thread with some pictures when I get time in my busy schedule:whistle:

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Chuck - you’re always very accomodating and eager to dig into finding answers to the more generalized questions we may have.





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[John Bastiani]

John, I would have to have the S/N of your gun. I can tell you that we started archiving research letters in 2004 and when searching for your name found none. Ron Kirby did the first letters but didn't archive them. Mark Conrad took over from Ron and did them for about 8 years, then I took over the letters in 2012. Mark started archiving in about 2004. The Order Books ended December 1919 so if there is Order Book information in your letter, it would have had to been made prior to 1920.

Give me your S/N.
Chuck My gun was made in 1926. The serial number is 218350. Also; the letters are not in my name but the prior owner-Carl Balderson.

[Chuck Bishop]

John, since your Trojan was made after 1919, there is no Order Book information on this gun however there is Stock Book information available. The Stock Book lists frame size, grade and barrel steel, grip type, LOP, DAH, and weight.

If you can, please post copies of your letters. If Ron Kirby had more information other than what is in the Stock Book, I'd be really surprised and so would the rest of the PGCA membership. BTW, I also checked the Griffin & Howe database for the gun and they don't list your gun.

Regards,
Chuck

[David Noble]

....... The Order Books ended December 1919.....Chuck
Chuck, are you saying that PB quit using Order Books in Dec. 1919 or that the PGCA doesn’t have any records from Order Books made after that date?

[Garry L Gordon]

Dean, I was all excited to dig into your question but when I looked at the WOT's, except for the real early ones which are real small and extremely dirty, most of the WOT's are in the range of 220k to 235k range, well after the order books ended in 1919. I did match up a bunch of them with the stock books but the stock books don't really give special instructions that the order book entry would. What I did find most interesting is that many of the WOT's showed a recoil pad where the stock books would never mention the butt treatment so the assumption would be that the gun had the standard butt for the grade of the gun. There are a lot of guns out there that we assumed they were retrofitted with a recoil pad when that was not the case. The large WOT's (there were 3 different sizes) many times would have interesting things written on the back side of the card. I've seen leather recoil pads, straight ribs, rounded recoil pad for a woman, etc. Real interesting reading. I think I'll start another thread with some pictures when I get time in my busy schedule:whistle:

I look forward to such a thread!

[Dean Romig]

Ron Kirby, along with supplying the information available in the dooks, also supplied names of employees and contractors who worked for PB, as having worked on “your” gun. I always suspected he tossed in that info just for embellishment and don’t believe those folks names were actually recorded as having worked on specific serial numbered guns.





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[John Bastiani]

John, since your Trojan was made after 1919, there is no Order Book information on this gun however there is Stock Book information available. The Stock Book lists frame size, grade and barrel steel, grip type, LOP, DAH, and weight.

If you can, please post copies of your letters. If Ron Kirby had more information other than what is in the Stock Book, I'd be really surprised and so would the rest of the PGCA membership. BTW, I also checked the Griffin & Howe database for the gun and they don't list your gun.

Regards,
Chuck

The third letter is on a plain sheet of paper and is handwritten(printed) and has a line in the middle. Starts out: Make|Parker model|Trojan SN|218350 Gauge|20ga and goes on to list every other feature about the gun: LOP -frame size -date of manufacture-pistol grip- etc. At the very bottom in the right hand corner there are four letters "RYNY" The only thing that doesn't match is the chamber length which the PGCA and handwritten letter states as 2 3/8 and the auction company called it 2 1/2. Which chamber length should it be? Also: Its entirely possible that the previous owner could have wrote this information down for his own reference.

[Chuck Bishop]

The stock book does show your gun as having 2 3/8" chambers. I would really like to see those 3 letters. If you can't post them here, you can send me an e-mail to pgcaresearch@verizon.net with them attached. I'll tell you what I think privately or I can post them here with your permission.

[Dean Romig]

According to what I’ve read, the 2 3/8” chambers were cut to that length to accomodate 2 1/2” shells, presumably to allow the shell to open into the taper of the forcing cone thereby affording a better gas seal.





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[Chuck Bishop]

Chuck, are you saying that PB quit using Order Books in Dec. 1919 or that the PGCA doesn’t have any records from Order Books made after that date?

I wasn't sure if PB stopped using Order Books after 1919 but I was pretty sure they did but wasn't certain until I started looking at the Work Order Tags. The WOT's with S/N's after 1919 do show an order # on the tag so I'm now certain that the Order Books continued at least until Remington ownership. What happened to those books nobody knows. They could have been discarded or given to someone who won't acknowledge they have them. Remington also had codes on their IBM cards but no one knows what they mean.

[allen newell]

Dean, I once had a friend who loved franks and beans. Unfortunately his forcing cone did not have a gas seal. Lol