Bismuth Handload

[Joseph Sheerin]

Hey all,

I am relatively new to shot shell reloading, and to this point I have only handloaded target loads.

But, was debating coming up with a decent bismuth load for ducks with my Parker Trojan..... 12ga 1926 gun with 30" M/F barrels.


So anything special about loading Bismuth?

I was thinking something along a 1 1/8 oz load of #5's.

Hulls, Cups, powders, etc?

What/where is the best place to buy Bismuth? I just want to load up 4 or 5 boxes for now.

I do have some 16mm brass once fired federal hulls....

[Jerry Harlow]

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[Joseph Sheerin]

Thanks!!

[Jerry Harlow]

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[Joseph Sheerin]

p.s. Please join as a member and then the Trojan won't be an only child. This is the place to buy guns from trustworthy sellers at fair prices not usually seen on the auction sites.

I will look into that....:cheers:

[Daniel Carter]

You are obviously into vintage doubles and there is no place else where ALL knowledge of them is more concentrated than this site. Any question on any double of any make from any country will find an expert here. Many members here are also members of all the other collector assoc.'s and will be able to give good advice. Being a full member also has many advantages.

[Joseph Sheerin]

You are obviously into vintage doubles and there is no place else where ALL knowledge of them is more concentrated than this site. Any question on any double of any make from any country will find an expert here. Many members here are also members of all the other collector assoc.'s and will be able to give good advice. Being a full member also has many advantages.

I just joined about 10 minutes ago, thanks!:cheers:

[Jeff Sweeter]

I loaded and shot ducks last fall with the first load from hodgdon site that is listed above and had excellent results.I would even drop the powder charge down to 30 grains.A little less velocity and pressure.1350 is plenty fast for bismuth as it acts more like lead than steel.I have loaded some down to 29 grains with the same components for older doubles.

[Pete Lester]

You are shooting a gun that is nearing 100 years old. I would not punish the gun or my shoulder with any of the loads listed above. Take a look through the Hodgdon online reloading center, you can find more appropriate/ period correct loads. For instance; AA hull, win209 primer, 26.4 gr of Longshot, RP12 wad, 1 1/4 ounce of bismuth, 1250 fps, 7500 psi. This load will kill ducks out to 40 yards with the proper choke and shot size.

[Jerry Harlow]

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[Pete Lester]

I just picked some loads using Cheddite hulls which are readily available in new primed form from the two sources. Remembering that Bismuth is lighter than lead, I feel that the few more grains of Longshot delivering the shot at perhaps 100 fps faster would give the same penetration as lead, since Bismuth will not have quite the killing power. Longshot I have found is a very dirty burning powder, perhaps not burning completely, and maybe the reason for heavier charges in the Cheddite hull which I use it with, as compared to the WWAA hull using less powder but a hotter primer. I think the recoil since both are 1 1/4 ounce loads would be negligible and unnoticed, but that is a decision for the shooter.

The slowest load you posted was at 1350 fps, that will produce 22% more recoil than an 1 1/4 ounce load going 1250. At 1400 fps recoil is 32% greater. That is a significant difference that both the gun and shooter have to absorb, one is going to feel it. Bismuth does act like lead and velocity is the enemy of tight patterns, in addition bismuth is more brittle and pellets have been known to shatter further reducing effectiveness. The old timers knew to increase killing power at longer range you increase the mass of the pellet, it still works today. I have been shooting bismuth reloads in 12 and 10 gauge for about 25 years with good effect. Loads moving at 1150 to 1250 work great with the proper shot size, I found there is no need to beat up a gun and shoulder with a higher velocity. I have never concerned myself with whether a powder is dirty or not unless I am shooting a gas automatic.

[Joseph Sheerin]

Loads moving at 1150 to 1250 work great with the proper shot size, I found there is no need to beat up a gun and shoulder with a higher velocity. I have never concerned myself with whether a powder is dirty or not unless I am shooting a gas automatic.

This is the sort of load I am looking for. I care more about the gun than I do killing ducks. :D And, I am not a pass shooter, I like to pull them into the stool, before taking them... So, Bismuth is lighter, so what shot size do you like for decoying ducks? #4 or #5 would be my thinking, I always liked #5's when shooting lead back in the day.

Thanks for all the responses. I have over 40 years in metalic cartridge handloads, but just started with shot shells last year when I picked up a friend of mine's MEC Sizemaster. So far I have only loaded #8 1 1/8 oz target loads. And still get frustrated trying to figure out how to get the perfect crimp......:banghead:

[Joseph Sheerin]

I was looking around yesterday, and ran across these. They say they are safe for classic guns, but I dunno.... Sure seems pretty hot for a SxS that is almost 100 yrs old.... Says on side of box, for Modern or Classic guns.... I might shoot them out of my model 12, which is a 1946 gun..... But I'd think they have a pretty solid thump to them.

SPECS
Gauge: 12
Shell Length: 2 3/4"
Shot Weight: 1 1/4 oz
Muzzle Velocity: 1400 FPS

https://www.rogerssportinggoods.com/HeviShot-HEVI-Bismuth-Upland-Ammunition-12-Gauge-2-3-4-1-1-4-oz-Case-of-250

[Jeff Sweeter]

I dont have as many years experience as J.B.but I think you would have good results with the #5s at the distance you described.I have had some testing done by Tom Armbrust,and by his recomendation and as stated above,1200 fps is a good velocity as it may produce a better pattern than faster loads.I like using cheddite hulls as per the hodgdon site they usually produce less pressure than most other hulls.They usually require a little more powder as they have a greater case capacity than most other hulls.The loads listed on Hodgdons site are plenty fast with this hull.I visited with Tom a couple nights ago and he is coming to my place for a visit in a month or so,and I talked him into bringing his pressure barrel along.We plan on testing some 10 and 12 gauge bismuth loads.With Toms permission I can post some of them on here.There are many good loads posted by the powder companys,but most are a little hotter than I want to shoot through my older guns.No sense beating them up.There are several sources for bismuth.I have purchased some from Roto Metals and thought it looked good.They sometimes put it on sale.If you want to get any shells tested,I have Toms number and address.Precision reloading in Mitchell S.D.also does testing.

[Joseph Sheerin]

Problem right now.... Finding things in stock...

I see Ballistic Products has #5 shot in 7# bag. And, Cheddite 12ga 2-3/4 16mm brass, primed & skived hulls. So, skived is a new term to me, what is that?

[Jeff Sweeter]

Skived is the mouth of the hull is internally ground a little to provide a slight taper for wad insertion and possibly easier crimping.

[Joseph Sheerin]

Skived is the mouth of the hull is internally ground a little to provide a slight taper for wad insertion and possibly easier crimping.

Thanks, so those would make for a good hull to use.... ?

I may just order 7lbs of shot, and 100 hulls... That'd give me a start.

Now, if I can just find some longshot powder.

There is a graf's here in town, may have to slide over there.

[Joseph Sheerin]

Looks like with those hulls... This would be a good load, and could even back off the powder a bit? Since I already have the WAA12R wads.

Hodgdon Longshot Ched. 209 WAA12R 31.4 7,200 PSI 1,350

[Jerry Harlow]

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[Jerry Harlow]

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[Joseph Sheerin]

At $1.20 a shell I don't think you can load them that cheaply, especially if you value your time to load that many. That is a great price. As for me, I would not hesitate to shoot them in my number 2 frame guns, Sterlingworths, etc. Just me.

I ordered stuff to do some handloads.... Not to save money, because I have never saved a nickel doing handloads... But, because I enjoy doing it.

I am sure my Parker could handle those loads, but will enjoy making my own.... I can't remember the last time I killed a deer with a factory load, I don't have to do it that way, but I enjoy it....

[Jerry Harlow]

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[Daniel Carter]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;302816]The slowest load you posted was at 1350 fps, that will produce 22% more recoil than an 1 1/4 ounce load going 1250. At 1400 fps recoil is 32% greater.

Just wondering why if both loads are 1 1/4 ounces, 100 fps more would produce 22% greater recoil and 200 fps 32%. What is the source for these percentage figures? In an 8 pound 2 frame gun(with two shells in the chambers)? Just looking for the source since I don't see or feel the same in one ounce target loads at 1150 fps compared to the one ounce hunting loads at 1250 fps. Thanks.

If memory serves(ha-ha) Tom Roster did an article for Shooting Sportsman 4-5 or more years ago on that subject . You pay a stiff price in recoil for a small increase in velocity. The bigger downside is how fast that added velocity is lost.
It may seem counter- intuitive but the 100 fps gain does not carry downrange at that increase but at 40 yds. is negligible.

[Pete Lester]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;302816]The slowest load you posted was at 1350 fps, that will produce 22% more recoil than an 1 1/4 ounce load going 1250. At 1400 fps recoil is 32% greater.

Just wondering why if both loads are 1 1/4 ounces, 100 fps more would produce 22% greater recoil and 200 fps 32%. What is the source for these percentage figures? In an 8 pound 2 frame gun(with two shells in the chambers)? Just looking for the source since I don't see or feel the same in one ounce target loads at 1150 fps compared to the one ounce hunting loads at 1250 fps. Thanks.

I used an online shotgun recoil calculator to get precise difference in ft lbs for 7 pound 12 ounce gun which is about what most 12ga Trojans weigh.

http://www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

An ounce and quarter at 1350 to 1450 is way too stiff for my tastes and too stiff for old classic doubles as far as I am concerned. You definitely do not need that kind of velocity to kill waterfowl with the right size bismuth shot, even at 40 yards. Have you patterned them at 40 yards to see what they are doing?

[Joseph Sheerin]

[QUOTE=Jerry Harlow;302853]

If memory serves(ha-ha) Tom Roster did an article for Shooting Sportsman 4-5 or more years ago on that subject . You pay a stiff price in recoil for a small increase in velocity. The bigger downside is how fast that added velocity is lost.
It may seem counter- intuitive but the 100 fps gain does not carry downrange at that increase but at 40 yds. is negligible.


This one: https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html

[Daniel Carter]

There is also an article he did that focuses on recoil when velocity and/or charge weight are increased. Made a light charge weight / slow guy out of me for clays with no change in my abysmal scores.

[Garry L Gordon]

When in doubt, go lighter. The gun...and your body, will thank you.

[Jerry Harlow]

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[Pete Lester]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;302865]

I tried that website to see how they came up with their calculations which I believe are way too high, but it is blocked telling me it is a dangerous website (?).

As I stated before, if their calculations are correct, I should notice quite a bit of difference between 1 ounce loads going 1150 fps (2 3/4 dram equivalent), 1200 fps (3 dram equivalent), and 1250 fps (3 1/4 dram equivalent), but I have never felt a 22% increase in recoil between the first and the third load, which if the chart is correct would apply.

Here is what Tom Roster has to say about lead and tungsten for velocities and then what he clearly states for loads with shot that is less dense than lead, for which he supports higher velocities:

"...the science-based reality that with lead and nontoxic tungsten-composite pellet hunting loads possessing lead shot equivalent pellet densities, all you need for effective (spelled: lethal) velocity is something near 1250 fps ± 50 fps. For steel loads, all that is needed is something near 1350 fps ± 50 fps."

Bismuth as we know is not lead equivalent (but denser than steel); therefore Tom Roster is recommending between 1300 and 1400 fps for stuff less than lead. I believe that is why Hevi-shot has loaded their "Hevi Bismuth" shells that are "FOR MODERN AND CLASSIC GUNS" at 1400 fps. I feel certain that they have done more testing than any of us could ever imagine before releasing their product and advertising that they were "safe" for classic guns. They apparently know something about downrange velocities as well.

I do know for sure that modern steel loads at these extremely high velocities are like night and day compared to the initial steel loads first brought onto the market that were being pushed at normal velocities of 1200 fps. I forbade those goose hunting with me to use the early loads. They too have seen the need for higher downrange velocities. To each his own and I won't argue with whatever someone else is successful with but I always look for an edge for not every shot I make is perfect and I hate wounded game birds.

If you are happy shooting a 1 1/4 ounce load at 1400 fps out of a 7 3/4 lb classic double have fun. I have found there is no need to punish the gun and and my shoulder with something that heavy. Personally I don't think it's good advice especially when you don't know the condition of the gun they will be used in. There are plenty of people on this forum successfully taking ducks and geese with bismuth loadings in 10 and 12 gauge guns with a velocity between 1150 and 1250. Again if you want greater killing power at longer range increase the mass of the pellet. Try shot size 3.5 from Roto Metals on ducks. It looks to be about the same number of pellets per ounce , 137 as the original Bismuth Cartridge Company #4 (which was oversized, almost a #3, late in production they downsized the #4 pellet). The "old" 4's work great on ducks and close geese at 1150 to 1250 fps and I'll bet those 3.5's will too. I am just about out of bismuth #1 and I think I am going to try Roto Metals #0 next for geese.