Guns that you turned your nose to but have changed your mind

[Craig Larter]

In my collecting life I have never had any interest in the utility grade American doubles like the Fulton, Hunter Special and Nitro Specials. Bur recently I have spent time handling and researching these guns and have a new respect for there durability and solid quality. I think they represent an interesting part of our gun manufacturing history. How about you???

[Steve Huffman]

I buy what my eyes like and gun fund can afford never been disappointed .

[Garry L Gordon]

I could not agree with you more. I think guns like the Fulton and Nitro Special represent something of interest and value in the history of America, and certainly of gun manufacturing. These guns were my entry into collecting, and they represented good values then...and now.

[charlie cleveland]

I have never turned down a gun I liked or could afford...these guns being mentioned are all top quality guns...I would even add the lowly stevens to this group...charlie

[Brian Dudley]

The Lefever A grades are very nice guns. They dressed up the nitro special in just the right way.

[Jerry Harlow]

I like all of the "lower grade" guns. Lefever Nitro Special, Ithaca Flues, early Stevens with walnut and checkering, Winchester 24, Iver Johnson Hercules, Crescent, etc., and never hesitate to add these working class guns, fix them up and enjoy them. They brought home the game for millions of American hunters who could afford more than a single barrel. Especially when in 16 or smaller.

[Daryl Corona]

This was'nt a utility grade per se Craig but many moons ago I turned down a Win. M21 cased 2 barrel set in 20 ga., 26" and 28" because I'll admit I was a Parker snob at the time. I had the money and it was for sale for cheap money at the time.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::bang head:

I still have the Stevens 311 20 ga. that my father bought for me and I take it out for a spin now and then. Just a really solid, albeit rough gun, that is still dear to me after 50 years.

[Daryl Corona]

This was'nt a utility grade per se Craig but many moons ago I turned down a Win. M21 cased 2 barrel set in 20 ga., 26" and 28" because I'll admit I was a Parker snob at the time. I had the money and it was for sale for cheap money at the time.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::bang head:

I still have the Stevens 311 20 ga. that my father bought for me and I take it out for a spin now and then. Just a really solid, albeit rough gun, that is still dear to me after 50 years.

[George Davis]

First started shooting/collecting doubles I walked by many Fox Sterlingworths.
Today 2 of my most prized "hunters" are my 1913 16 gauge and 1920 12 gauge. I've hunted multiple states and killed many upland game birds with those two guns. The only double I've had on Huns was the 16 gauge and last year in Montana, I accomplished the same on late season pheasant with the 12 gauge.

[Bill Jolliff]

I think for many of us, it gives us our first taste of side by side shotguns.

I started with a 12 gauge Ithaca Nitro Special. Then I found I needed a side by side 20 gauge and in shopping for that, I discovered Fox doubles were pretty darn nice. Parkers too.

And that's how it started about 60 years ago.

What a ride!

[Rick Roemer]

I started with a Nitro Special in 12 gauge. And down the rabbit hole I went...

[Dean Romig]

The utility grade I started with when I was 13 was a 12 gauge Trojan. I freely admit I am, and have always been, a Parker snob. Oh I’ve had others over these many years and I can admire the beauty of other makes of shotguns, be they SXS’s, pumps or single barrel guns but I’ll never stray too far from my beloved Parkers and will likely add to my collection as time goes by.
I must say I have never actively looked for anything else.





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[bob weeman]

I now like guns that are no longer in original condition and have seen significant use but are mechanically sound. I particularly like guns customized within reason especially if it was done years ago. Allows me to pay a lower price, get a quality gun, and may even be more functional than when in original condition. Just bought a Lefever G grade where the stock has had wood nicely added to good dimensions, Also has 24 inch steel barrels choked modified and full that must not be original. Shoots well and with spreaders a good grouse gun. A very handy gun to me that so far I shoot well. And still regret not buying a very worn AH 10 gauge for 1800.00!

[Bill Murphy]

I'm a bit spoiled because my first real bird gun at 14 years old was a 28 gauge Parker. This thread has prompted me to write about guns down the rabbit hole, from Foxes to Purdeys and hundreds in between. Over the years, with five of my progeny taking up much of my income, I have been lucky to have had some friends who would pick up my "finds" in times of no money. I get to visit those guns fairly often.

[Larry Stauch]

I wouldn't normally be in the same zip code with some of these guns, but the other day I found a few that looked like someone kept them in a dresser drawer for the last 75 years. Now maybe someone is going to tell me they've been redone, but if that's the case a real master did it. Growing up with a WWII guy guns were a tool and some of these utility guns served that purpose well to Craig's point.
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[Dean Romig]

Looks minty original to me!





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[Dave Noreen]

Definitely redone. The pointed up checkering certainly is not original Nitro Special.

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Original Nitro Special checkering was flat-topped like this --

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See Walter Snyder's article on the Nitro Special in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Thirty, Issue 1.

[Brian Dudley]

Yup. That gun is restored. Not original. Case colors look good on the top and bottom, but are not right at all on the sides. And, as dave said, the checkering was never fully pointed up on those guns. They were flat topped with the lines cut to about half that depth. And they were cut very crudely. And the finish was lacquer. It is not uncommon to see the lacquer chipping around the edges of the checkering on higher condition original examples. The finish was never that nice.

Here is a super original example that just sold on GB.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/866836741

And another one for sale now.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867565031

[Craig Larter]

Dave thanks I went back and re-read Walt's article, fascinating. I own a first year 410 and just love it for what it is. I find it interesting that Ithaca jobbers were not supportive of Ithaca bringing out a 410, but they did anyway in 1925. It seems the quality of the Nitro improved in the later years,
I have a good friend that purchased a Crescent 410, nice gun for what it is, I think a step up in finish to the Nitro Special.
These guns are a very interesting part of our gun making heritage that I completely overlooked. I kinda like them used but not abused meaning that they have served there intended purpose and were cared for by people that couldn't afford Parkers or Foxes but treasured them just the same.

[Stephen Hodges]

The 20 Gauge Nitro Special that Brian referred to is my gun. :)

[charlie cleveland]

nice gun....charlie

[Stan Hoover]

Just an observation,

From what I've seen in the past, the Lefevers produced by Ithaca were sent out with the butt plate with the opposing half circles )))))(((((.

The butt plate with the Ithaca Gun Co INC was for the NID's.

I did not read this, just what I've found. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Stan

[Dave Noreen]

For most of the production life of the NID, they had a plain horizontally grooved butt plate. Here on a No. 5E --

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Here on a Field Grade --

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On the Lefever Nitro Specials they used the curved lines.

84065

Here on an A-Grade

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The butt plates with the horizontal grooves and the Ithaca Gun Co., Inc. at the bottom were primarily used on the Model 37s, but did appear on a few of the very last post WW-II NIDs --

84068

Also on a few NIDs restocked by Ithaca in the 1950s and 60s. Note that 1946 vintage, high condition, Nitro Special Brian provided a link to, 356035, has this butt plate.

[Pete Lester]

The 20 Gauge Nitro Special that Brian referred to is my gun. :)

I want to hear the stories and details of all those woodcock, pheasants and grouse shot with that gun :whistle:

[John Wayman]

Craig, hard to discount those guns completely. They all put food on the table. Most all of them got used hard, I bet, so to find a good example now is no easy feat. Some makers built so many utility guns that it may color how folks view the company in general. Ithaca made something like 250000 field grade guns,but their high grade guns are beautify done. You know I’m biased !!:)

[Joseph Sheerin]

I bought this 16ga Lefever Nitro for my Son, as a present for graduation from the Navy's Nuclear program..... I bought him this gun for 2 reasons....

1. It's built like a tank and can handle any off the shelf 16ga shells(no steel shot)
2. It is a "working mans" gun, that was in all but brand new condition.

I paid $600 for it if I remember right, last year saw one that was identical to it sell for well over 1K on GB. At the time, I was concerned I'd paid too much for a Nitro... But, after watching that auction, felt better about it.

[Garry L Gordon]

I bought this 16ga Lefever Nitro for my Son, as a present for graduation from the Navy's Nuclear program..... I bought him this gun for 2 reasons....

1. It's built like a tank and can handle any off the shelf 16ga shells(no steel shot)
2. It is a "working mans" gun, that was in all but brand new condition.

I paid $600 for it if I remember right, last year saw one that was identical to it sell for well over 1K on GB. At the time, I was concerned I'd paid too much for a Nitro... But, after watching that auction, felt better about it.

Joseph, That's a beauty!...and a 16 to boot!!

[Joseph Sheerin]

Joseph, That's a beauty!...and a 16 to boot!!

Thanks, one of the nicest looking Nitro's I've ever seen in 100% original condition...... He is very happy with it, and I don't have to worry about him having to shoot 2.5" RST's out of it.:)

[Joseph Sheerin]

Also on a few NIDs restocked by Ithaca in the 1950s and 60s. Note that 1946 vintage, high condition, Nitro Special Brian provided a link to, 356035, has this butt plate.

My son's nitro has the horizontal lines Buttplate. It's a 1946 or 47 gun. I need to go look that up.... :rolleyes:

Just checked, his is a 1946 gun....356614

[charlie cleveland]

I have a stevens 410 double 3 inch gun you never have to worry about what shell to shoot in it...come to think of it I have never heard of any body saying any thing about what shell to shoot in a 410 except maybe the chamber length 2 inch versus 2 1/2 and 3 inch....I looked on my oldest shell boxes 410 they say just watch chamber length...nothing mentioned about barrel steel...I wonder aout this because a 410 has some mighty high chamber questions...I thought maybe I had seen some composite barrel 410 s but I may be remembering wrong....does anybody out there have a Damascus or wire twist 410......charlie

[charlie cleveland]

i quit looking to soon i did find a box of 410 shells that had the warning to not shoot them in wire twist or Damascus barrels...the box that had the warning on it was a peters box with the flying duck on it 2 1/2 inch shell box...the outher boxes i looked at were as old and older than the box the warning was on....i have no wire twist barreled 410 so i guess i m safe.....charlie

[Dave Noreen]

That is a great looking Type 3 Nitro Special. I was thinking the Type 3s were using up left over A-Grade frames, but lately I've noticed they use the same type forearm and cocking cams as the earlier Nitro Specials. The A-Grades use the same cocking cams and forearms with the J-spring latch as the 1935 and later Ithaca NIDs. A 20-gauge Lefever A-Grade above and a 28-gauge Ithaca NID below --

84201

[Joseph Sheerin]

I always thought the Lefever A Grade, and Ithace NID has more in common than the Nitro's......... Always put the Nitros in same category as 311, BSE, Win 24's..... A step below the field grade guns of Ithaca, LC Smith, Fox, Parker, etc....

[Dave Noreen]

I thought maybe I had seen some composite barrel 410 s but I may be remembering wrong....does anybody out there have a Damascus or wire twist 410......charlie

The .410-bore shells were first introduced by our North American ammunition companies in the 1914-15 time frame. Apparently Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. being the first out with them, according to Encyclopedia of The 410 Shotshell in America 1914 - 1942, by Greg Bickford. Apparently their first .410-bore shells were produced at their factory in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. From the 1915-16 Rem-UMC catalog --

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J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. claimed their No. 106/108 single as the first .410-bore gun in North America.

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However, just to muddy the waters, the 1910 Harrington & Richardson catalog offers their Model 1905 for the .410 Eley --

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For a couple of decades prior, out mail order houses, importers and our manufacturers of small single barrels offered guns for the .44-40 shot and .44XL --

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Many of these imported JABCs (Just Another Belgian Clunkers) had twist barrels. Many of the .44XL guns have been bored out to take .410-bore shells. If they have .44" bores like my H & R Model 1905 --

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they couldn't have had much of a gas seal with the old fiber wads.

[charlie cleveland]

I too have a stevens 410 single barrel with 44 caliber marked on it...some good info here...how about the imitatin twist steel barrels..i have heard of this before but never seen it in writing...charlie

[todd allen]

My opening day gun is a Nitro Express .410
84314

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This is my backyard Eurasion dove shoot.

[todd allen]

Not a very good picture, but I think this gives a good feel for the little dove killer
84317

[charlie cleveland]

the little 410 doubles are the best...charlie

[Dave Noreen]

Some of these little "entry-level" .410-bore doubles getting are pretty spendy!! Steve B. has a fully optioned Lefever A-Grade listed at $12,500! In 1984 I handled a similar one at the Kittery Trading Post with $750 on the tag and I didn't buy it.

[allen newell]

My first shotgun was a single barrel 410 ga Springfield with plastic stock and fore end. Hunted rabbits with it at age 13. Only shot it for one year till my dad let me shoot his Parker 16 ga. While over the years I have acquired and shot Brownings, Berettas, Winchesters and Ithaca shotguns, I've always returned to my Parkers. But recently I purchased from Dean R. a near mint 20 ga Fox Sterlingworth, and have not touched any of my Parkers since. I must be loosing it...

[Dean Romig]

Didn’t I warn you? Those extra tight chokes are contagious!





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[allen newell]

You did warn me Dean. I have shot skeet and trap very well with this Sterly and i can not put it down. It is a fun gun to shoot. My parkers are crying in the gun safe. Lol

[Bob Brown]

Thanks Researcher, for posting the info on the 44-40 and 44 XL. Never seen those ads before. I've been thinking of working up a load for what I think is a 44 XL I picked up a little while back. It is a Walters and Son stamped laminated steel, but the worn areas look like fluid steel. The pattern is visible below the forend. Belgium made posing as British. Tiny little thing.

84375

[Mike Koneski]

I always had a soft spot for the Crescent Arms hammer doubles. Had a few of them and they all held up their end of the bargain. I also have a soft spot for the Stevens 311. That was my Pappy's favorite (and only) double gun and in 16g too. It took countless rabbits and pheasants on the farm. Still have it. Only thing I ever did was add a recoil pad to give it some length. Still a good, solid gamegetter.

[Dave Noreen]

Until shortly after The Great War, H & D Folsom Arms Co., owner of Crescent Fire Arms Co., had the guns they marketed marked American Gun Co.

H & D Folsom Arms Co. Catalog No. 11 --

84401

H & D Folsom Arms Co. Catalog No. 18 --

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H & D Folsom Co. Catalog No. 23 --

84403

[Craig Larter]

Dave, were the Cresent's made in Batavia?? Where was the manufacturing plant??

[Rick Losey]

Crescent guns were made in Norwich Connecticut until bought up by Savage

[Brian Dudley]

Folsom later acquired Baker in Batavia and some Baker guns were made with the crescent name on them, among others.

[Dave Noreen]

H & D Folsom Arms Co. bought the fire arms part of the Baker Gun & Forging Co. circa 1919, and moved production to their Crescent Fire Arms Co. factory in Norwich, Conn. A lot of the Folsom era Bakers don't have an address on them, just BAKER GUN CO. on one lock plate and BATAVIA LEADER on the other, but here is one with the Norwich, Conn. address --

84410

84411

All the Folsom era Bakers have an F in the serial number. It appears the Batavia Leaders and the Black Beauty Specials have a lower serial number range --

84413

84412

While the graded guns are in the 201xxx range --

84414

[Dave Noreen]

Crescent guns were made in Norwich Connecticut until bought up by Savage

J. Stevens Arms Co. combined the Davis-Warner Arms Corp. and the Crescent Fire Arms Co., both of which they acquired early in The Great Depression, as the Crescent - Davis Arms Corp. which continued in Norwich, Conn. until 1935, when it was dissolved and the remains moved to the J. Stevens Arms Co. factories in Chicopee Falls, Mass.

84415

84416

84417

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84419

84420

84421

84422

From 1937 to WW-II the Crescent - Davis guns were listed on the last page of the J. Stevens Arms Co. Wholesale Price List.

84425

But the pictures they used were old Springfield No. 311 and 315 pictures. From this time period we see some really strange combinations of Stevens, Crescent and Davis parts put together.

[Mike Koneski]

Researcher, you need to write a series of books!!

[Mills Morrison]

Another thread idea is ones you wished had turned your head and left your heart alone. Thing is I have been trying to forget about those

[Phil Yearout]

Often listed alongside the Winchester 24 as the ugliest side by sides ever made are these Stevens/JC Higgins/Model B/etc. .410's. The squared off receiver might be a little off-putting, but they are tons o' fun for not a lot of money (although the prices do seem to be going up)…

https://i.imgur.com/7qCLl2Gl.jpg

Actually I never turned my nose up at mine; I've always rather liked it :)!

[Bill Jolliff]

I guess we're showing off our 410 doubles.

Here's my Ithaca Lefever Nitro Special 410 with 26" M/F barrels. As you can see, it's a later one. Weighs 5# 12 oz.

I've had this one for 51+ years. Paid $150.00 + $7.50 tax from Pearson's Gun Shop in Auburn, NY.

It has accounted for many cottontail rabbits and a few grouse.

In fact, I was grouse hunting with a PGCA member (Tom) quite a few years ago and was standing in some heavy cover with some tall Norway Spruce trees scattered here and there. I noticed something dropping from above.

It was grouse poop and some of it landed on the stock of my 410. Have you ever had a grouse poop on your gun? Almost justification to shoot them in the tree but it took flight and away it went. No shots taken.

All in good fun and sport.

https://i.imgur.com/9O6BKXG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NaWKjEc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2pgI04t.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QptpIlw.jpg

[todd allen]

I was the guest of an old gentleman on an Iowa pheasant hunt a few years back. Though he could afford to shoot anything he wanted, his gun of choice was a well worn Stevens 311, in 12 gauge.
When asked, he explained that he has hunted with that old gun since he was a kid, and he shot it well.
And, he shot it well!

[Bill Murphy]

Phil, your flat frame .410 with checkered walnut is a thousand dollar gun, or close, today. There are other variations that sell for close to that. They will kill a pheasant and are easy to carry.

[Mills Morrison]

Julia's Marlin fake LC Smith 410 is deadly in her hands

[bob weeman]

I have heard about the Winchester 59 for many years and always said why would anyone want one. I heard the stories of those that loved it and others cursing the butt heavy feel among other things. Never handled one until a couple months ago. One was in a local gun shop and I chuckled at it and picked it up. It felt pretty good but still not my taste. I went back for other things a few times and always picked it up. Well the price was 299.00, it was in decent shape and had a modified barrel. I said what the heck lets give it a try and bought it. Took it down back to the range, set up the trip wires and shot it from many angles and both split and stacked doubles. It was a very fast handling gun that pointed well for me. Not sure how many birds I shot but only had one miss. So far so good but more shooting needed for a better assessment. Sure does carry nice at 6 and a half pounds!

[Craig Budgeon]

In the right hands, the guns mentioned, would take as much game as a Parker Invincible, Fox G Special, etc.

[Mills Morrison]

I recently bought a Model 59 from a cousin of mine. It was family heirloom and the price was a giveaway, so I have one now. I still have not shot it.

[Dean Romig]

I recently bought a Model 59 from a cousin of mine. It was family heirloom and the price was a giveaway, so I have one now. I still have not shot it.


Was the word "Woolner" etched or carved anywhere on it?... That's the only one I would like to own.





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