shotgun shell ?

[Bill Crowden]

For the Parker experts
I have a DH made in1905 with Titanic steel barrels with new Briley thin wall screw-in chokes can i shoot Fiocchi 12ga 2 3/4, 1-3/8oz, #5 shot, 1250fps nickel plated lead shot without harming my barrels? Headed to Kansas to pheasant hunt.

[Bruce Day]

I'm no expert, but if it were me, I'd want to check the pressure of these cartridges against the Parker load tables that have been published here and in TPS p515 to ensure that they fall within the service load ranges.

Maybe I'm just ultra cautious.

[Pete Lester]

I would be less concerned about harming the barrels and more concerned about cracking the stock. Those are rather stout loads, the contact points between receiver and stock are small and the wood is 105 years old. You'll probably get away with it but why take a chance. Be sure the screws holding the stock to the receiver are tight. Loose screws will lead to cracked stock.

A good rule of thumb, pressure stresses barrel, recoil stresses stock.

Show me a pheasant that is in range for those loads and I'll show you the same one is in range for 1 1/4 ounce at 1175 to 1220 fps.

[Jack Cronkhite]

I've always looked at it this way. I would never put myself 40 yards down range and have someone fire the lightest load, lowest pressure shot shell known directly at me. As far as I'm concerned, they all will do the job on a bird, so I take it easy on the old guns and have not had any change in how the birds drop compared to heavy loads fired from "modern" pumps and autos. If the bird is unfortunate enough to find itself within the pattern of any type of shotshell I've ever used, they have become dinner. That has been my experience over 5+ decades of the chase.
Cheers,
Jack

[Francis Morin]

Fine shells BUT IMO- better suited for a modern era gas operated autoloader- A 1905 DH 12- the chokes were honed out and Briley thinwall screw in chokes installed, correct? But your fine Parker was built when paper shells were the norm, we were slowly moving from black powder into the smokeless powder shells- older style primers, waddding, crimps and possibly 2 &5/8" chambers.

I concurr with brother Lester about recoil and the wood at the critical stock head area- I'd stick with my favorite combo in my 12 GHE No. 2 frame Parker- 28" Imp. Cyl. and Mod.-- I use a 1 & 1/8th AA std. Trap load (not Handicap) 1150-1200 FPS range in the right barrel, and the same load in the left if shooting over a close working tight holding pointing dog- if over my Lab or with another friend with a flush dog, then I use some of my older Rem Express paper 1 & 1/4 oz. No. 6 shells in the left barrel.

What choke combinations do you plan to use in the DH with the Brileys? Kansas birds in Dec. snowstorm- I've heard that real cold weather may affect shotgun shells- but I have no direct knowlege of that.

Have a good trip- hope you get into some birds- maybe some fotos afterwards with the DH 12 as a "bonus"??:bigbye:

[Jack Cronkhite]

...I've heard that real cold weather may affect shotgun shells- but I have no direct knowlege of that.

I have hunted upland birds at -30 celsius (22 below F) and not had issues with various brands of shot shells over the years.

Back in paper days, some did swell on the miserable driving rain days for migratory birds. "Miserable" is a bit harsh, as those were the days we looked forward to for a great shoot. (That was in my youth. A warm fire, and SMS shared with other old geezers seems more civilized now :) )
Cheers,
Jack

[Francis Morin]

I have hunted upland birds at -30 celsius (22 below F) and not had issues with various brands of shot shells over the years.

Back in paper days, some did swell on the miserable driving rain days for migratory birds. "Miserable" is a bit harsh, as those were the days we looked forward to for a great shoot. (That was in my youth. A warm fire, and SMS shared with other old geezers seems more civilized now :) )
Cheers,
Jack Yessiree- and if you are hosting, and SMS means what I take it to me (McCallan?) I'm there. In Robert Ruark's classic "The Old Man and The Boy" his maternal grandfather, Ned Hall- often expressed that love of the warm fire and a toddy over taking a limit of ducks in a raging storm--

I look forward to our late Bonus 30 day season on Canadas- if it is not way too cold, and our rivers haven't frozen shut- 'tighter than Dick's hatband' to use a Ruark expression-- I usually use the "black ops. Mossenburgher 835 pump and 3" Federal steelies OO buck. Never have had a "fail to fire" yet, and if I steer it right, usually hear the bang- followed by the crash-thump of a Canada coming down-- I usually fill the Thermos with hot chocolate rather than coffee, and "dress warm, boy- dress warm"

Ruark's great story about "It takes a duck to know a duck"-- the breakfast where his Grandpa cooks the fried eggs in the toasted bread- one of my boyhood favorites--:bigbye::bigbye:

[Jack Cronkhite]

Francis: You do have a clear understanding of "civilised". :)
Jack

[charlie cleveland]

any factory load of the majorammo companys will be stout in presure and recoil in the 1 1/4 ounce loads...you want know any differance ina 1 3/8 or a 1 1/2 ounce load....as said youll probably get by shooting the loads....its not the amount of lead in the shell that kills its the man who has been practicing before the hunt.....i like the screw in chokes yuumentioned...makes for an all around gun..... charlie

[Bruce Day]

Lots of people ( including me) have their personal opinions, but here is what Parker said about suggested and permissible loads for your gun as it was built.

Obviously it would make a difference if a gun is decrepit or in lesser condition now than when it was built.

[Pete Lester]

First let me say I reload, therefore I am in total control and I like that. I shoot low to moderate pressure loads. If you want to shoot old guns you should really look into reloading if you don't already. It opens up a whole new world.

The amount of recoil and thus stress placed on your stock will be a significant increase over a mild 1 1/4 ounce load pushed at 1220 fps.

The Fiocchi loads you cited will generate almost 24% percent more ft lbs energy in recoil in a 7 3/4 pound gun, 31.66lbs vs 25.65 pounds.

Let those wonderful Parker chokes do the work, you don't need to shoot baby magnums through a Parker.

PS. If you were to put the two loads on the pattern board you may find there is no signifcant difference in the patterns at 40 yards. The lighter load pushed at slower velocity has fewer deformed pellets due to barrel scrub and crushing in the shot column. The advantage to those baby mags is minimal. Especially if you go out and buy the nickle plated shot to reload with vs. magnum or chilled lead.

PPS. BTW I am not a Parker expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once and put a Parker shotgun under the bed.

[Francis Morin]

First let me say I reload, therefore I am in total control and I like that. I shoot low to moderate pressure loads. If you want to shoot old guns you should really look into reloading if you don't already. It opens up a whole new world.

The amount of recoil and thus stress placed on your stock will be a significant increase over a mild 1 1/4 ounce load pushed at 1220 fps.

The Fiocchi loads you cited will generate almost 24% percent ft lbs energy in recoil in a 7 3/4 pound gun, 31.66lbs vs 25.65 pounds.

Let those wonderful Parker chokes do the work, you don't need to shoot baby magnums through a Parker.

PS. If you were to put the two loads on the pattern board you may find there is no signifcant difference in the patterns at 40 yards. The lighter load pushed at slower velocity has fewer deformed pellets due to barrel scrub and crushing in the shot column. The advantage to those baby mags is minimal. Especially if you go out and buy the nickle plated shot to reload with vs. magnum or chilled lead.

PPS. BTW I am not a Parker expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once and put a Parker shotgun under the bed. Hey, besides a GHE 10 ( 2& 7/8" std. not 3.5" mag) 32" Goose gun, after reading your closing, maybe I can also wish for a night at a Holiday Inn with a Parker under the bed and Sarah Jessica Parker on the pillow next to me- sure beats a wrapped Mint every time!! Ho Ho Ho!!:p:bigbye:

[Bruce Day]

I know. So hard to decide. Sarah Jessica Parker or a Trojan, or a Trojan or Sarah Jessica. Maybe both?

[Richard Flanders]

A bit hard to read the bottom table that Dave posted but the middle one indicates that in 2-3/4" chambers loads of 10,500psi are ok. The middle one looks like it suggests 3-3/4 - 4 dram loads. Seems someone recently posted that the traditional 3-3/4dram, 1-1/4oz loads of recent yesteryear(50's-70's)are in the 10,500psi range. I've acquired a lot of those stout old loads the past couple of years and have shot them in stout and not so stout Parkers and my Daly and I can tell you they boot you good in the lighter guns, which is part of the reason I just purchased the #2 framed SG VH12 off Gunbroker. I really don't want to crack a stock on the lighter guns. Strangely enough, the Parker I worry the least about is my 1883 hammer gun with it's nice stout bbls and stock. I think it would even handle the old paper Super-X 2-3/4" 1-1/2 oz magnum 2's I picked up this fall, but I think they'll get passed on to Destry for use in his big #3 framed gun instead. Am I reading these posted load tables correctly??

[Pete Lester]

Are you guys on drugs? You would mix a good looking conservative well built Trojan with an ultra liberal gun grabbin hollywood siren?

Hell with the gun I can buy those, just have Santa bring me conservative Megyn Kelly of Fox news any day.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj57/nhshotgunner/MegynKelly.jpg

[Bruce Day]

Yes. Some are definitely stout, stouter than I like for my shoulder, but the gun was designed and built to take it. These guns are more capable than a lot of people give them credit for. I load down too, but I'm frustrated when we don't distinguish between choice and the fact of what the gun was made for.

[Bruce Day]

Sarah Jessica is for Francis to tame. Just talk to her, Francis.

[Richard Flanders]

"Some are definitely stout, stouter than I like for my shoulder, but the gun was designed and built to take it. These guns are more capable than a lot of people give them credit for. I load down too, but I'm frustrated when we don't distinguish between choice and the fact of what the gun was made for."

I agree Bruce. I don't worry as much about the gun other than the stock. My #1-1/2 and smaller frame guns have pretty slim grips. No way I'd put those stout 3-3/4 dram loads through my 1-frame 12ga damascus gun. That would hurt regardless of whether the gun would handle it.

[Bruce Day]

That's true, those light 12's can kick a lot. But there are a bunch of 12's out there with fairly thick wrists too. I saw one the other day that was built for a man with a way bigger than normal hand and a 15" LOP.

Years ago I passed up a genuine 6 1/2 lb VH 12ga 26" 1 frame ......4" DAH. Was interesting but I bet it kicked hard.

[Fred Preston]

Sure hope Pete didn't forget the Trojan under the bed when he checked out with SJP. I guess the poor housekeeper is used to dealing with that sort of thing.

[Pete Lester]

Sure hope Pete didn't forget the Trojan under the bed when he checked out with SJP. I guess the poor housekeeper is used to dealing with that sort of thing.

Worse things have happened, somebody sold a house with an Invincible in the attic.

[Bruce Day]

Fred, it was Francis, not Pete Lester, who was with SJP. Or maybe it was Pete's evil twin Moe.

[John Dallas]

Pete - I saw a young couple come into the Southfield MI Fly show with 5-6 fly rod tubes under their arms. They found them in the attic of their recently-purchased home. The rods were all big-time sticks -Young, Garrison, Payne, etc. They didn't know which end of the rods to hold, but they sold them for enough money that their mortgage was paid for a year, I'm sure.

[Francis Morin]

Fred, it was Francis, not Pete Lester, who was with SJP. Or maybe it was Pete's evil twin Moe.-- I'll tell you what fellas- I'd gladly swap a full night at a Holiday Inn with Sarah Jessica Parker (Trojan grades optional I guess) for a closed deal and deed to a nice older farm house with 420 acres of prime bird cover, three good ponds that hold waterfowl, no super-close anti-hunting neighbors and a Invincible of ANY gauge stashed in the attic in its case- Shoot, I'd even accept an A-1 Special or even a AAHE-- make mine a 20 gauge size O frame 28" open bored barrels, straight grip. splinter, DT and leather covered pad- about 14 & 1/2" LOP and I'll pretend SJP never existed- Hey, if you're gonna dream, dream big, right?? Happy Holidaze:bigbye:

[Bruce Day]

Pete - I saw a young couple come into the Southfield MI Fly show with 5-6 fly rod tubes under their arms. They found them in the attic of their recently-purchased home. The rods were all big-time sticks -Young, Garrison, Payne, etc. They didn't know which end of the rods to hold, but they sold them for enough money that their mortgage was paid for a year, I'm sure.


A 5wt Payne recently sold for $7,000. Bob Summers has one listed for $11,000. And people think Parkers are expensive.

[John Dallas]

Better buy it quick. Just looked on Bob's site. The Dickerson is now up to $12K. By tomorrow it may be $15K

[Francis Morin]

Better buy it quick. Just looked on Bob's site. The Dickerson is now up to $12K. By tomorrow it may be $15K
Yup- and if you find a Mint unaltered Hawes, Gillum or Garrison- then you are talking some real dinero--

Just as knowing if a VHE 20 has been "upgraded" to a AHE takes a real expert examination, so does the "counterfeiting" or refinishing for the real fine cane rods- also, the smaller sticks for the lighter wt. lines usually command a premium, as would a Mint BHE 28 ga. over a Mint 12 perhaps.

There is also a "flip side" to that coin-- The 10 gauge steel barreled hammerless grade Parkers (and LC Smiths and perhaps also Ithaca NIDs) also seem to command a premium- as do the "Big Gun" Salmon rods as made by Payne and Gillum and others of that era.

Just as the fine R.L. Winston influenced rods made by the late Gary Howells took a big jump in resale pricing after his untimely passing, once when visiting Bob Summers he remarked that after he passes on, he'd like to come back and see what prices his fine Paul Young influenced sticks will fetch- His workshop is amazing- how he can find anything in his private clutter, but he does- and Bob is as honest as the day is long.

Mae's family cottage is on Lake Bellaire, somewhere in that area the late Lyle Dickerson had his shop and turned out his "Steinway" rods.

[Bruce Day]

A 6'6" 3wt Howells sold recently for $5,000, so I was told. Its the same adage as in Parkers; the less broadly useful, the higher the value to some. That's why I am going to miraculously find a Parker BB gun. I figure I'll start at a reasonable $30,000.


We had a BB gun thread here a couple years ago. I thought I had it made with a near mint in the box Daisy Red Rider, and I knew that Bill Murphy had not started collecting those in the second grade. But then that darn Dean Romig steps up with some fantastic high grade well tennis shoed collector edition Daisy BB gun and puts all the rest of us all into the bottom feeder class of collecting. Just goes to show, there is always somebody with something better out there. I think its a mint , un-aired, only touched by cotton gloved hands, high grade made during the best years of Daisy.

[Francis Morin]

A 6'6" 3wt Howells sold recently for $5,000, so I was told. Its the same adage as in Parkers; the less broadly useful, the higher the value to some. That's why I am going to miraculously find a Parker BB gun. I figure I'll start at a reasonable $30,000.


We had a BB gun thread here a couple years ago. I thought I had it made with a near mint in the box Daisy Red Rider, and I knew that Bill Murphy had not started collecting those in the second grade. But then that darn Dean Romig steps up with some fantastic high grade well tennis shoed collector edition Daisy BB gun and puts all the rest of us all into the bottom feeder class of collecting. Just goes to show, there is always somebody with something better out there. I think its a mint , un-aired, only touched by cotton gloved hands, high grade made during the best years of Daisy.

Col- we had those Daisy Red Ryder BB guns at summer camp in Northern Mich during the 1950's- you had to be at least 12 to shoot the old WW1 surplus .22 rifles on the range, so the younger campers got the BB gun and slingshot range for 'starters'--That was a treat for me- as my father wisely (in retrospect) didn't allow me have a BB gun, as did some of my boyhood pals down in the Queen City area- when he was growing up a friend lost an eye to a stray BB pellet in a "Cowboys and Indians" scenario. I did have ,22 rifles, but always under parental supervision until I was 16, ditto the M12 20 I received when I turned 12--

I have seen some pretty beat up Red Ryder BB guns at flea markets, etc. $30K, huum?? Wonder about the rumored protoype Over-Under Parker bros. may have had on the drawing board- if such a gun exists, what a rare find indeed-

As far as fly tackle, I dealt more in the reels than the rods- fly reels are pretty straight forward- they either work, or they don't. I like the older Hardy Perfects- smooth as silk, and more affordable than the Vom Hofes, Walkers and Bogdans (the later a true "Rolex Reel" though-- Stan Bogdan's son Steve, who now runs the small shop in NH- served in the Navy in Vietnam- not sure of his rate or MOS- believe he was on a cruiser in the Gulf of Tonkin though- :bigbye::bigbye:

[Bruce Day]

Didn't R L Wilson recently find the long rumored Parker over/under?

[Dean Romig]

Francis, I have a Hardy "Prince" for my 9 ft. 7/8 wt Thomas & Thomas "Illiaska Special".
I love the Hardy, though it was a bit embarassing the first couple of years I used it... the thing screams like a banshee when a good salmon is rippin' the line off.

[John Dallas]

Dean - Here's what you need - Ring tones for your cell phone which are the sounds of that Hardy Salmon Reel.

http://www.salmonreel.com/

[Dean Romig]

Thanks John!! I've never heard of such a thing.... Screamin' reel ringtones! I'm definitely going to do it.

Thank you

Dean