The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

[Rick Roemer]

Hi. I’ll start with the good. Finally got out turkey hunting with Dad yesterday here in Ohio. Perfect morning with gobblers on all corners sounding off. 20 minutes after sunrise Dad called one in close enough for a shot. Using my Model 21 Heavy Duck gun, one shot and Mr. Tom was lights out- clean.

Packed up and headed home. Pulled the gun out of its case to take some pics with the bird to discover - The Bad! The left barrel is completely split at the muzzle. Needless to say I am thankful no one was injured or worse (more Good)

Obviously I have questions and I’d like to hear members opinions on what went wrong. I use this gun infrequently, maybe once a year on waterfowl - in fact the last goose I shot with it was my dog, Bock’s final retrieve. Good memories.

I also use it for a yearly turkey hunt. Many times no shots taken. And I’ve shot it at clays we throw in the back yard. Being a fairly heavy gun, it’s not used much.

Standard practice for me is bore snake and wipe down before any gun goes back in the safe -always.

Going to the field yesterday I put it in my floating gun case since it has a strap- makes it easier to carry the gun, along with everything else.

So of course the questions are what happened and what can be done?
I know there was no obstruction left in the barrel from the last time I used it. I always use the bore snake and I look down the barrels to make sure they’re clean after I pull it through.
I carried the gun to my spot in a sealed case. I sit on the ground, I really don’t think the muzzles ever were stuck into mud, etc.

I’ve never had barrels do this. Do the pictures indicate anything definite? Am I using too hot of loads for this model 21 magnum shotgun ? I shoot the Kent shells more than these new Winchester turkey loads I picked up for the hunt. In fact, this was the only shell I have shot from the box.

Could this gun be repaired (unlikely) or could the barrels be cut and new chokes fitted? If I found a set of replacement barrels would they likely need to be fitted to the frame like a Parker? Are barrels ever for sale ? What would you do with this gun in my situation ? I wouldn’t call it extremely fine condition but it’s far from abused. 32” barrels, full and full.

Thanks for your input - and as for the Ugly... there’s a reason my profile picture is of my dogs instead of myself !

[Dean Romig]

In your first picture there appears to be a bulge at the beginning of the split.... indicating the likelihood of an obstruction... :confused:

IMO those loads are made for pumps and autoloaders, not classic SXS's.



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[Steve Huffman]

Darn ! You didn't notice that till you got home ?

[Rick Roemer]

Yeah I have to think it was an obstruction but just doesn’t make sense all I could think is a leftover wad and like I say I always do the bore snake. If there had been a wad left in there would that cause this problem ?

No I didn’t notice it at all when it happened. shot the bird, unloaded then cased up the gun

[Shane Jennings]

Maybe full choke in those long barrels with the heavy tungsten loads weren't good for it??

[Dean Romig]

A wad would certainly have done that.... or a piece of a twig... or a piece of straw...





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[James L. Martin]

I can't see that happening without something being in the barrel. I really like model 21 , you might find a barrel but a 32" one will be hard.

[Rick Roemer]

Yeah that’s the answer I keep coming back to.
Do you think having them cut and re-choked would be economically worth it? I would probably be looking to sell it if I did that and try to get another one with the long barrels. I just don’t want to get too upside down on a repair, since cutting barrels Would seriously change the value. But it would make it shootable again I guess. Sort of looking for the next step .

[Dean Romig]

I'd spend some time looking for replacement 32" barrels if it were mine.

You could have the damaged barrels cut back and install thin wall screw-ins after you find replacement barrels. Then you'd have a decent SC gun too.





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[James L. Martin]

Dean is right on those shells I would not shoot any of those in any of my s/s. With that said I don't think they were at fault, there was something in that barrel. I would look for a barrel, they do come up, you may have to settle on a shorter length.

[Rick Roemer]

Ok thanks. As for the shells - what would you suggest? Is it not ok to shoot 3" in this gun? The tungsten matrix are advertised as safe for fixed choke guns - like bismuth. I honestly have only shot maybe 10 or so through it anyhow.
And the other shells are lead (the one that I used yesterday)

[James L. Martin]

I use those Winchester Longbeards. in a Remington 11-87 ,the shot load is encased in some sort of epoxy, you can cut open the shell and the shot will be one solid lump, I know that when fired it becomes a powder and buffer. I would shoot 1 1/2 oz max at 1200 fps or less. If that meant 2 3/4 " shells so be it. My self I would use 1 1/4 oz of 5 or 6 copper or nickel.

[Greg Baehman]

Another possible explanation could be the slight bulge and barrel split may have been caused by a phenomenon termed momentum -- too big of a load at too much velocity through too tight of a choke. These same catastrophic results could have occurred regardless whether lead, bismuth or tungsten loads were used.

[Bill Murphy]

First thing I would do after a blow up is to take the rest of the box of shells, weigh each one individually after assigning a number to each shell. Next, I would dismantle every other shell and weigh each component, leaving every other shell intact. I would keep all loads of powder in plastic bags for testing, to see if the powder is the powder that is supposed to be in that load. Next, I would take two of the shells and send them to Tom Armbrust for pressure testing. However, your blowup seems to be an obstruction.

[Bill Murphy]

How far back in your barrels is it to perfect, undamaged barrel?

[charlie cleveland]

I think a good welder could fix those barrels to be shootable again...might not be easy to hide the weld completely...and you can cut the barrels and have screw in chokes put in....some times these things just happen no way of knowing what went wrong... anyway good luck on the fix....charlie

[Rick Roemer]

How far back in your barrels is it to perfect, undamaged barrel?

I think you could cut it to 29", but probably best to go to 28". I suppose Briley would be the place?

[Rick Roemer]

I think a good welder could fix those barrels to be shootable again...might not be easy to hide the weld completely...and you can cut the barrels and have screw in chokes put in....some times these things just happen no way of knowing what went wrong... anyway good luck on the fix....charlie

Do you recommend anyone as a welder? Didn't really think this was possible. Looks don't really concern me as much on this gun.

[Rick Roemer]

Another possible explanation could be the slight bulge and barrel split may have been caused by a phenomenon termed momentum -- too big of a load at too much velocity through too tight of a choke. These same catastrophic results could have occurred regardless whether lead, bismuth or tungsten loads were used.

Yeah I wondered about this - just never thought of it prior to this accident. Choke in that barrel was .032.

[Steve Huffman]

Do you recommend anyone as a welder? Didn't really think this was possible. Looks don't really concern me as much on this gun.

I don't think any good welder would want to put his name on a project like that ! If you know what I mean JMHO !

[James L. Martin]

In 1957 Winchester's heavy 3" 12ga load was 1 5/8oz standard was 1 3/8oz. Your model 21 was most likely made around then or before. Those new Long Beard shells had I think 1 7/8oz plus buffer . Hope they had nothing to do with blow-up but it's a thought.

[Rick Roemer]

Well thanks for that info. Wish I had seen this prior. Never even gave a thought to the amount of shot. I am going to reach out to Briley to see what the cost of shortening with screw ins will be. But I definitely am on the hunt for long barrels to replace. Probably a hard find.

[Dave Noreen]

The original 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X load of 1 3/8 ounce of shot was introduced circa 1924/5. Western Cartridge Co. introduced their Lubaloy loads circa 1928/9. The 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum load with 1 5/8 ounce of shot was introduced in 1935 along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun. In the January 2, 1958, Western Cartridge Co. price list. the Olins introduced the 1 7/8 ounce 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum load.

83767

A bit of real trivia -- From its introduction the Super-X 12-gauge 3-inch 1 3/8 ounce load (P37) was just that and the Super-X 12-gauge 3-inch 1 5/8 ounce load (P38) was the Magnum. February 19, 1952 --

83765

By 1953, Western Cartridge Co. was changing their load symbols and along with that the 12-gauge 3-inch 1 3/8 ounce load gained the Magnum appellation. January 16, 1953 --

83766

[Brian Dudley]

The barrels are toast.
The only way they can be salvaged is to cut them back to before the damage and have a shorter barreled gun. Or you have that one tube sleeved with a new tube.

You may be able to get replacement barrels made and fitted to it by Galzan. They do the model 21 service today.

[Reggie Bishop]

Sorry this has happened to your classic Winchester! This just reinforces my conservative shell selection for my prized shotguns!

[charlie cleveland]

people add barrel length to guns all the time...these card shooters have some really long barrels...most with added length to other barrels....as you say most all welders would not put their name on this work but also I do not know of a gun smith who will tell you this gun is fool proof and want blow up....I bet you could shoot 2 ounce loads through this set of barrels with them cut off and fixed with new chokes till you got tired of buying shells with no problem to the barrels..i m sure there is some model 21 shooters out there who have shot plenty of magnum steel shot oy there with no broblems to the barrels...I have a lc smith long range with 32 inch modified chokes both barrel that have shot boxex and boxes of heavy magnum loads with no problems with the barrels...no streaking of the barrels and no problems with the stock I did glass bead the stock before shooting these magnum loads...charlie

[Jerry Harlow]

My two cents is this was shot bridging, since I see they were number 3s. The tungsten matrix is hard; tungsten by definition is harder than steel even in the matrix blend they make. And with a heavy wad with thick walls, when going down through the .032 choke there was no give and no shot deformation as with lead. The shot in the column formed a solid block and the walls like Jerico came tumbling down under the stress. With 4s, you may have gotten by, with 6s probably 99.9% of the time. With 3s or larger, disaster. With a more open choke, you probably get by. Remember with steel or harder shot, an IC shoots Mod., a Mod. shoots Full, and a Full shoots Extra Full and a thin barrel lets go.

Remember if you cut this back two inches, you are probably in the very thinnest part of the barrels, and there may not be enough metal to install chokes. so measure or have them measured to see how thin they will be where they will be cut. I think having the left side retubed is going to be the best bet, by somebody like Kirk Merrington.

[Joe Graziano]

Keep an eye on EBay. I found a set of 28 in Atlas Arms barrels with chokes installed for a ridiculously good price. I had them fit and use them as my upland barrels.

[charlie cleveland]

ja s opion is the best one yet...retubeing will make the gun new again....if you cut the barrels and can get new screw in chokes put in her it may out shoot the 32 inch barrels....charlie

[Rick Roemer]

Man I do appreciate all the responses to my unfortunate problem. I do love this gun and it has some memories. I shoot RST in every other double I own, but this one seemed to be my most modern double. Never worried about it. I used it at Hausmann's last year on the Nash Buckingham Bo Whoop shoot. No issues. If I get this gun back and up to speed, I will need advice on what to shoot - not for clays - but for serious waterfowl and turkeys. Otherwise I will go back to the Benelli SBE - and I really don't want to go there.! Seriously thank you all for your response - no where else on the planet for any real/honest/knowledge based information. So glad I am a member. And very glad this wasn't a Parker. 21s are reputed to be super strong. Cie La Vie. Thanks again

[todd allen]

Kirk Merrington can probably replace the damaged barrel. Might end up being a partially Italian gun when done..

[Brian Dudley]

21s are no less likely to fail than any other quality double.

[Paul Ehlers]

My two cents is this was shot bridging, since I see they were number 3s. The tungsten matrix is hard; tungsten by definition is harder than steel even in the matrix blend they make. And with a heavy wad with thick walls, when going down through the .032 choke there was no give and no shot deformation as with lead. The shot in the column formed a solid block and the walls like Jerico came tumbling down under the stress. With 4s, you may have gotten by, with 6s probably 99.9% of the time. With 3s or larger, disaster. With a more open choke, you probably get by. Remember with steel or harder shot, an IC shoots Mod., a Mod. shoots Full, and a Full shoots Extra Full and a thin barrel lets go.

Remember if you cut this back two inches, you are probably in the very thinnest part of the barrels, and there may not be enough metal to install chokes. so measure or have them measured to see how thin they will be where they will be cut. I think having the left side retubed is going to be the best bet, by somebody like Kirk Merrington.

This is the best advice offered so far! Send the barrels to Kirk to find out what your options are and follow his advice. It's not going to be cheap, but you will be saving a classic gun.

If it were my gun I would see if Kirk could just sleeve the one damaged barrel back to the original 32" length. I have a friend that had Kirk replace/sleeve just one barrel on a model-21 and it came out wonderful, you really had to look & know what you were looking for to detect that the one barrel had been replaced.

You'll probably never know exactly what caused the blow-up, but IMO; the first step is to never shoot any of those shells again to be on the safe side. Secondly; Get in the habit of looking down the barrels before you drop in a new round.

[Rick Roemer]

Definitely. Already talked to Kirk this morning. What a nice and knowledgeable guy. Getting information like this from all of the PGCA forum folks is THE reason for me being a member. Thank you PGCA. Hopefully my situation will cause all to be extra cautious. Looking down the barrels - for sure. These shells are going up for sale - or to the garbage. Thanks again.

[Larry Stauch]

I would send some pictures to Galazans, they are the factory. Galazans will work on 21s only and they can probably do the replacement barrel factory new.
They do exceptional work on 21s, cosmetically as well as mechanically. No disrespect to these other outstanding gunsmiths, but why would you go to anyone but the factory.

[Jerry Harlow]

These shells are going up for sale - or to the garbage.

Your Benelli SBE that you mention will eat those shells as if they were target loads.:)

[Curtis Jennings]

Oh my, that really ruined what should have been a great day. I do not think that there was anything in the barrel, those Win Long beard XR shells are a solid slug of resin with a center fill of #4 lead shot, plus a plastic wad. They are "engineered" to break up when reaching the choke. Unfortunately in this case your barrel gave way before the resin. The way the end of the barrel is blown so wide open is what I remember seeing back in the beginning of steel shot. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Bill Murphy]

Why would you throw the shells in the garbage when the payload may have turned into an oversized solid mass that could have destroyed your gun? Oh, well, we tried.

[Craig Larter]

I have always felt shoot a load for which your gun was designed. Parker 2 frames and AH Fox 12 ga guns 1 1/8oz , Super Foxes and 3 frame Parker 12ga 1 1/4 oz., Model 12 3 inch duck 1 5/8oz.
The best thing that has improved my scores the last few years are 3/4 oz 12ga reloads at less than 6000psi. No recoil
I also agree the solid slugs hitting the choke split the barrel, sad I hope it turns out well.

[Phil Yearout]

...or to the garbage.

Better hope they don't burn garbage at the city dump :)!

[James L. Martin]

The more I think about that barrel the more I believe those Winchester long beard shells may have been at fault. They use new technology that may not be compatible with the old shotgun's we love. They may have lead shot but that resin plus 1 7/8 oz of shot may just be a formula for disaster.

[Rick Roemer]

I would send some pictures to Galazans, they are the factory. Galazans will work on 21s only and they can probably do the replacement barrel factory new.
They do exceptional work on 21s, cosmetically as well as mechanically. No disrespect to these other outstanding gunsmiths, but why would you go to anyone but the factory.

This is more great advice. Called them today. Thx

[Rick Roemer]

The more I think about that barrel the more I believe those Winchester long beard shells may have been at fault. They use new technology that may not be compatible with the old shotgun's we love. They may have lead shot but that resin plus 1 7/8 oz of shot may just be a formula for disaster.

This is what I feared all along. I’m very cautious with my Damascus barrels and only shoot RST in everything else. I guess I figured modern ammo was ok in my Winchester magnum. Wrong by me.

[Rick Roemer]

Why would you throw the shells in the garbage when the payload may have turned into an oversized solid mass that could have destroyed your gun? Oh, well, we tried.


Hi, not sure I understand your comment here. “We tried.?” Thx for clarification

[Rick Roemer]

Better hope they don't burn garbage at the city dump :)!

Actually these would go to our local sheriff who has a system of disposing of unused ammo.

[Larry Stauch]

I've had to send this one to Galazan's after some of the others had their try.
Now, no problems.
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[Rick Roemer]

Holy moly- what a gun! Thx for sharing

[Jerry Harlow]

Actually these would go to our local sheriff who has a system of disposing of unused ammo.

My original post about the bridging of the Tungsten Matrix was on the assumption that they were used to kill the turkey. But do I understand that the Winchester shell did the damage? Either way, one or the other did or started the damage previously. If you had shot some of the Kents before in that barrel, the splitting could have been started by the large shot and the unforgiving resin packed Long Beards XRs finished it off.

But if you want to dispose of the shells, send them my way. They'll go through my Browning BPS, Franchi 912 Variomax, or Beretta Xtrema sewer pipes just fine.

[Bill Murphy]

Rick, my comment was disappointment that you didn't try to establish cause by dismantling the shells to determine whether the shot had bonded into a mass or to determine whether the powder charge was equal in all the shells in the box. I am very sympathetic to your situation. I have been trying to buy a cheap damaged set of Model 21 barrels for years, to mate with my cutaway Model 21, without success.

[Bill Murphy]

Larry, can you tell us about your pictured gun? It is outrageous in its engraving. Who did it?

[Larry Stauch]

Unfortunately, I do not know the identity of the engraver. Once I saw it I knew I had to have it. It has the most life like animal engraving I have ever seen on a gun.

[Rick Roemer]

Rick, my comment was disappointment that you didn't try to establish cause by dismantling the shells to determine whether the shot had bonded into a mass or to determine whether the powder charge was equal in all the shells in the box. I am very sympathetic to your situation. I have been trying to buy a cheap damaged set of Model 21 barrels for years, to mate with my cutaway Model 21, without success.

Ok I did get that comment but as this has just happened, I have not got around to dismantling any shells. That is in my plans. Do you think before I open up the shells it would be prudent to contact Winchester ammo?

[Dean Romig]

Winchester may want you to send them the remaining shells.... then what have you got?... Nothing.

If you contact Winchester ask if they will accept findings from an independent lab.





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[Rick Roemer]

OK that’s kind of why I haven’t taken them apart yet independent lab is good advice

[John Campbell]

This is a rough scan of Winchester's standard disclaimer on ammunition packaging. Was your gun "in good condition"? And can you prove it? Did you check the barrel for obstructions prior to firing this round? Or "excess lubricant"? If not, you have a slim case. Or none at all. Just my view of things...

[Brian Dudley]

https://connecticutshotgun.co/winchester-model-21-repairs/

[Rick Roemer]

Thank you Brian. I have been talking with Galazan

[Ken Hill]

https://connecticutshotgun.co/winchester-model-21-repairs/

$5300 for a set of barrels seems reasonable. Sleeving is about $2K for both barrels plus extras. A new set of British barrels is well over $12K.

Ken

[Joe Graziano]

Or, you could buy another M21 for less than the cost of a set of barrels. Sleeving one barrel wouldn’t be cost prohibitive.

[Chris Robenalt]

You might pm Dale Medders. Im sure he has a set of ejector barrels he'd sell you.
Chris

[tom tutwiler]

Late to the party here. What shell caused the problem, the Kent or the Winchester?

[Rick Roemer]

I’ve shot the Kent shells for several years with no problems and good results. I only shot one of these Winchester shells and it blew up the barrel. Based on several qualified smiths looking at the barrels I’m fairly certain the shell called caused the problem. I’m yet to hear back if Winchester will do anything about it. The realist in me says maybe some free shells. But I would be pleasantly surprised if the company would share in the repair cost.

[tom tutwiler]

I’ve shot the Kent shells for several years with no problems and good results. I only shot one of these Winchester shells and it blew up the barrel. Based on several qualified smiths looking at the barrels I’m fairly certain the shell called caused the problem. I’m yet to hear back if Winchester will do anything about it. The realist in me says maybe some free shells. But I would be pleasantly surprised if the company would share in the repair cost.

Thanks. I believe a fair number of Fox folks shoot those kent shells out of their Fox Supers for waterfowl. I am not aware of anyone shooting the Longbeard ammo out of any Foxes (including me). I just did some searching on Old Gobbler (turkey hunting forum) regarding issues with long beard ammo. There have been a number of issues that have surfaced lately. First, is failure to fire. The second is a bad batch of Longbeards where the resin was too hard and came out much like a slug. Folks who were getting amazing patterns were instead finding cases where there was a slug like hole in their targets where the resin failed to shatter when going through the choke (which is what they are designed to do). Accordingly, there is a possibility that you have a box of ammo that is essentially acting like a slug, and that's what caused your issue.

What I'd recommend is mark every shell you have and then send some of those marked shells to Winchester and keep some for yourself for independent testing and also take a picture of the box and the marked shells together showing the lot number. I'd picture the heck out of everything and tell Winchester what you are doing (in a nice way). FWIW, this issue has been reported to Winchester about the Resin being too hard and not shattering as it was intended to when going through the choke.

Read this thread, it might be helpful: http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,94113.0.html

[James L. Martin]

That's very disturbing info on those long beard shells ,I have killed 3 or 4 birds with them but mine are at least 3 years old. I am using a Remington 11-87 with Rem.extra full choke tube. After reading that thread I am now sure those shells did cause that model 21 to fail.

[Rick Roemer]

OK thx. Like I said originally I’m really glad nobody got hurt but if there is a defective element to the shells I believe Winchester should step up. Pretty deep pockets.

[Stephen Hodges]

I use the Winchester Longbeard Ammo for turkey hunting out of my Benelli SBE2. I can tell you they knock the SNOT out of you, and that is with an auto that is pretty heavy and bleeds off some of the recoil. They are very stout loads that I would not think are appropriate for anything but a modern gun. But I might be wrong.

[Bill Murphy]

What people don't understand is that Model 21 3" magnum barrels are the same barrels that are installed on 2 3/4" skeet guns. The wall thickness is the same in both, unlike the 3" Model 12 barrels, which are thicker and heavier. There may be exceptions to this rule, but every 3" Model 21 I have owned, including some that I still own, have been 7 1/2 pound guns, no heavier. I would not shoot a shell in my Model 21 magnum guns that had a name like "turkey", "heavy goose" or any such title. They are common thin barrel field guns made with good steel that normally holds up under stress, but not always.

[Joe Graziano]

I was shooting my M21 on clays today. I shot the original M/F barrels and the Atlas Arms barrels with thin walls. Both work perfectly, thanks to Lou Rotelli. I wouldn’t recommend home gunsmithing on a M21. It looks so simple, but isn’t. That was a lesson learned.

[Jeff Stegmeier]

Rick, this is Jeff from Grand Rapids. Once upon a time I may, or may not have stuck a Fox sticker on your Jeep First, congratulations on the fine turkey and second, sorry to hear about the severe damage to your gun. Ouch! At least there were no injuries. Tom "vaturkey" was kind enough to share your misfortunate on the Fox Forum. I can't offer any advice, but I will say that I own a very light weight German Simson with thin wall choke tubes, so, it can be done. Jeff

[Rick Roemer]

Hey Jeff a.k.a. Mr. Fox! Good to hear from you this is the same gun I was using At the bo whoop shoot last year at Hausmann’s. I know you and I were there together. Hope to run into you again real soon