Repro Parker Bros brass shot shells

[Joseph Flynn]

I recently bought some 10 guage brass shells from Track of the Wolf, Inc.. Figured I'd show them off incase anyone else was interested. I have not loaded or fired them yet but I will let y'all know if they don't function as good as they look.

[Jerry Harlow]

Joseph,

Are you loading black powder or smokeless in these hulls?

[Joseph Flynn]

They will be used with goex FFg black powder, I will load the first ones pretty light with 3 1/4 drams and 1 1/4oz of shot. I need to get some large pistol primers this week and will load them as soon as I do. I have never loaded brass hulls and don’t like the Idea of gluing the overshot card in place so I may use paraffin wax instead. Has anyone else done this, or had any issues with this?

[Brian Dudley]

I didn't know that reproduction shells were being made. They look great!

[George M. Purtill]

Those are wicked cool. Thanks for showing.
Are they expensive?

[Joseph Flynn]

George, I payed around $7.50 a hull for them, the 12ga are a bit less. I think they are expensive but I payed for the name. To justify my purchase, I tell myself competitors cost almost $12.00, and I can reload them many times.

[Bill Murphy]

I would hate to think about what my Rocky Mountain Cartridge eight gauge brass would have cost if I had paid retail. My question about the RMC and the Track of the Wolf cases is "Do they expand so much that we have to keep them segregated from shells fired in different guns?" I have not used my RMC cases because I have a supply of sized Remington eight gauge cases gifted to me by Daryl Middlebrook. I wish I knew where Daryl's sizing die is now, but it is probably lost with much of his other "stuff".

[Joseph Flynn]

Good question Bill, I am not sure yet how much they will expand in the chambers. I will get back to you on that after I fire them a few times, and try a couple different guns. They should be fairly strong, because I believe both them and RMC are turned on a lathe from solid brass.

[Jay Oliver]

Bill, yes the Track of the Shells do expand. I shot some 12 gauge shells in my early lifters(serial#s less than 4000) with black powder. They will not fit in my more recent lifters or top action guns anymore. So they are dedicated to those early guns now. I do have a RCBS 12 Cowboy die set new in the box that "should" be able to resize those I just haven't tried it out yet.

With the 10 gauge shells I have been able to use the shorter 2 5/8" shells in many different guns with out issue.

I do like these shells and have a bunch in both 12(2 1/2" and 2 5/8" and 10 gauge(2 7/8" and 2 5/8"). They are great quality and Track of the Wold sells a nice reloading pamphlet with these that I like as well.

Joseph, let us know what you think when you get a chance to shoot them.

[Jay Oliver]

One more thing Joseph, I use Duco Cement to glue the overshoot cards(which should be 9 gauge for your 10 gauge shells). That has always worked for me...

[Joseph Flynn]

Thank you for the info Jay, I will be using 9 gauge cards and wads. I will also pick up some Duco cement and give it a try.

[Bill Murphy]

I would love to use wax if it came in a squeeze tube, but Duco is a better alternative since it does come in a squeeze tube. I don't think either are dangerous.

[Joseph Flynn]

Sounds good bill, I have a ton of paraffin wax at the house, my Me'Maw quit canning and I took it off her hands. I figured it would be a good way to use it for something other than removing duck feathers and saltwater sealing shells. I will be trying a few different methods Duco being one of them.

[Matt Buckley]

I have had issues with the Duco Cement letting go from the brass. I have had the best success with a hot glue gun. I load up some pretty heavy 1 3/4oz loads for turkeys and there is some recoil so I like to make sure my second load stays together and I have not had any problems with using hot glue. I have some of these Track 2 5/8" 10 gauge shells I have reloaded 4-5 times and they expand a little but still fit nicely in my lifter. I think you are fine if they are being used in the same gun.

[Joseph Flynn]

Matt, what kind of range are you seeing out of your turkey loads? what is the barrel length and chokes? also what shot size are you using. I'm used to hunting turkeys with a 3" 12ga with 1 3/4oz of #5 shot and very tight turkey choke. The reason I ask is I have been struggling a bit this year not having the confidence to shoot at longer ranges, I have been hunting with a DH12 with 30" full chokes and 2 3/4-1 1/2oz #5s. I am wanting to load some 10 gauge loads and hoping to get a little more range. I am hunting the mountains of central Va and it is not an easy task to get a mtn Tom to venture closer once he's settled on a ridge to strut. I have had them hang up at 40 yrds multiple times this year and haven't been able to pull the trigger.

[Jerry Harlow]

Josey,

Buy or load some Tungsten 18g/cc 9s in the 12 with 1 1/4 ounces of shot and the 12 will turn into a 45 to 50 yard plus gun easily. The load has 453 pellets and has more energy per pellet than a number 5 at that distance. The same load in number 5 lead has only 217 pellets. The load I am using is 1300 fps and because the pellets are so small they do not lose their velocity at longer ranges as larger lead pellets do. And because the Tungsten Super Shot loads are double shot-cupped and with buffer, I have never had any barrel scoring. The 2 3/4" 20 gauge loads of one ounce 9s more than double the amount of shot in a turkey target at forty yards as compared to a 3" 1 1/4 ounce lead load in the same 20. I have shot lots of targets in the last two years with it (and a few turkeys) and I would never go back to lead or even Hevi-shot (12g/cc). Just my 2 cents.

https://www.tungstensupershots.com/viewtopic.php?t=7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQUmeHZvrIQ

[Joseph Flynn]

Thanks for the info Jerry, I will read up on it, Looks like it would be a good load for ducks as well.

[Jerry Harlow]

I am sure it would be great on ducks. But at over $3 an ounce not counting the other odd-ball components the loads call for, and I would think an ounce or less would be more than sufficient, it would get pretty pricey.

Plus shooting at the body of a bird would present a problem with TSS buried deep into the cavity, making one hesitant to take a bite for fear of breaking one's teeth. I posted a thread over a year ago about making a trap to recover your test shots (idea and info on the TSS site). This year from the 1.25 ounce loads I would recover about 1.125 ounces of the undamaged TSS and from the one ounce 20 gauge loads nearly the whole amount in the steel backed trap.

[Matt Buckley]

I shoot my brass 1 3/4oz turkey loads out of a 32" twist steel 10 gauge lifter. It is choked full and full and the load patterns very nicely out to 30-35 yards. It opens up a little more at 40 yards than I would like but would probably still kill a turkey if I make a good shot. I have thought about loading the TSS out of the brass shells but I have been told it is not recommended in the older twist and damascus barrels. I have some loaded up in Fiocchi 12 gauge hulls in 1 5/8oz I'm using this turkey season out of a 12 Trojan. The patterns with #9 are excellent at 40 yards. I just don't feel comfortable shooting at them a lot farther out but they may kill a turkey farther than that if I do my job putting the pattern where it needs to be.

[charlie cleveland]

the tss shot willput your pattern out to 10 yards farther than anything you have patterned before...i shoot a lot ofdifferant guns at up to 70 long steps with the tss shot it is hands down the best shot load to choose from...but it is expensive ...charlie

[Milton C Starr]

I wonder if anyone here has experimented with the teflon wraps and tss in a older gun ?
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Teflon-Wraps-10-to-12ga-50_pak/productinfo/TEFLON/

[Joseph Flynn]

I’m not sure I really understand how those work? Are they supposed to create a buffer for the shot to barrel contact?

[Milton C Starr]

I’m not sure I really understand how those work? Are they supposed to create a buffer for the shot to barrel contact?

If I recall and dont quote me on this as its been awhile but I think they go inside the wad before you add in the shot . But yes I think it works like you said creating a barrier between the shot and bore . I have read concerns of tss going through the wad petals when firing . Not that I have any evidence to support that just a concern I seen with people loading tss .

The guys on duck hunting chat used to post all sorts of creative loading techniques . I have always read never to shoot HTL shot through fixed full chokes . I dont mind shooting lead or bismuth but its interesting to see the performance of TSS .

they also sell a mylar wrap im not sure how it differs from the teflon .

[charlie cleveland]

tss is harder than steel so you have to use aspecial wad such as a steel shot wad...i wood not shoot them in a parker unless it was a repo...they have barrels made for hard shot...charlie

[Milton C Starr]

tss is harder than steel so you have to use aspecial wad such as a steel shot wad...i wood not shoot them in a parker unless it was a repo...they have barrels made for hard shot...charlie

Something about steel shot wads I have been wondering about .
The 3oz 10 ga loads I had were loaded in a steel wad that was unslit .
From what ive read though you're not suppose to load wads unslit like that .

[Jerry Harlow]

The recipes I am hand loading use the mylar wrap in 12 gauge and a 28 gauge wad top portion inside the 20 gauge wad. Both call for buffer. I find the buffer to be more as a filler than as a cushion for the shot or the barrel. The number 9 shot or even 7 is so small there is no concern with bridging as with big steel shot, and I have shot these hand loaded TSS in Parkers, Foxes, and Browning A5s, and I have no concern about the bores. The shot charge is so small because the shot is so heavy that it does not fill the shot cups. Plus it is not as if I am shooting two boxes every time I go, and the way turkey season is going the test shots may have been all that I will shoot.

[charlie cleveland]

thanks for that info j a......i may carry my old 10 ga parker and use gauge mates and use them 12 ga tss shells i bought...charlie

[Paul Harm]

Jerry, why do you think #9 shot doesn't slow down as much as larger shot ? This is the first time I've ever heard of that. Has someone taken down range velocity test ? Thanks for any help.

[John Dallas]

For an equivalent charge weight, there will be more #9 pellets than say #6's. Assuming those two charges are started with the same velocity, each charge group will have the same energy in total. Since there are more pellets in the #9 charge, individual pellets will carry less energy than their big brother 6's, and therefore will slow down more quickly due to wind resistance

[Paul Harm]

Someone please show me where velocities were taken down range of different size shot. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but I'd like some published data. If I'm reading everything correctly, John claims the #9s slow down more quickly, jerry just the opposite. Me, I don't think there's hardly any difference to write home about other than the bigger shot will have more retained energy. But then there's more of the smaller shot.

[Jerry Harlow]

For an equivalent charge weight, there will be more #9 pellets than say #6's. Assuming those two charges are started with the same velocity, each charge group will have the same energy in total. Since there are more pellets in the #9 charge, individual pellets will carry less energy than their big brother 6's, and therefore will slow down more quickly due to wind resistance

Don't think so. The link below shows the velocity. At 57 yards, the #5 lead is 526 fps if I'm reading the chart which is now somewhat obscured a Photobucket overlay. At 71 yards the #9 TSS is 537 fps. At these respective distances, both have 1.5 inches of penetration in the gel, due to the smaller pellet entering the gel has less resistance. So the TSS in 9 more than equals to the 5s fps at the same distance. In the thread it quotes Federal where it says that TSS is 56% denser than lead. Lead is 11g/cc and TSS is 18g/cc so with a difference of 7 and 7 % 11 = .63. So lets say somewhere in the 60% denser. Now two pellets, one small and one large leave at the same velocity, but one is more dense/compact than the other. Which one slows down the fastest?

Here is another quote I wrote before: "The Tungsten 9s have the same penetration at 70 yards as lead 9s do at 15 yards" This is what the chart shows, and I am a believer. Below are two threads I previously posted so I'm not going to beat the dead horse. And I had a #9 pellet go clean through a turkey's breast, not at the top, but at the bottom where it is not too thick. But it went through it. Neither lead or Hevi-shot at that distance will do that. I know.

Lastly, I will add a target I shot a week ago with a 20 gauge A5 using only one ounce of 9s at a measured 40 yards through a .030 full choke and not a turkey choke. The distance was measured and not stepped off. I think 27 hits to the head and neck from a lowly one ounce of TSS would be more than sufficient to turn his head to nothing but broken bones.


https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/the-difference-in-shot-ballistics-with-different-shot-densities.267784/

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23838

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24219&page=2

From Federal Ammunition:

Features

• HEAVYWEIGHT® TSS payload with advanced buffering material
• As much as twice the pellet count of lead No. 5 loads of the same weight
• 22 percent denser material than standard tungsten; 56 percent denser than lead
• FLITECONTROL FLEX™ wad provides extremely tight, consistent patterns through standard and ported turkey chokes*
• Roll crimp and clear card wad keeps buffering material in place
• Full-length wads prevent direct contact of the extra-hard pellets and the bore, protecting the barrel
• 5-count pack
• 12-gauge, 20-gauge and .410 loads available
• A portion of the proceeds are donated to the National Wild Turkey Federation

[charlie cleveland]

looks like its about as cheap tobuy fsctory shells as too make your own loads..charlie

[Jerry Harlow]

looks like its about as cheap tobuy fsctory shells as too make your own loads..charlie

Charlie,

Yes, if you want 3 1/2" or 3" 12 gauge or 20s with 1 1/2 ounces or 1 5/8 ounces in 3" shells. The shot will cost you more than you will pay for the box of five shells for the magnum guns. But if you want to make a 2 3/4" turkey killer out of an old gun with 1 1/4 ounces in 12 or 1 ounce in 20 you have to reload them yourself. Federal is not making any 2 3/4" shells unless you custom order them and they they are terribly expensive. The only ones loading 2 3/4" shells are stuffing way too much shot for our old guns since the TSS takes up so much less space they can really pack it in. But I want to shoot 1 1/4 in 12 and 1 ounce in 20 in vintage guns.

NITRO is the only one I can find making the short shells and they put 2 ounces in 2 3/4" 12 and 1 5/8 ounces in the 2 3/4" 20s.

http://www.nitrocompany.com/ammunition.html#TSSTable

https://apex-ammunition.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/gt-20-9-20-gauge-1-5-8oz-9

p.s. Now if someone will figure out a TSS load that we can stuff into the 10 gauge brass that the original post showed, I will use them exclusively. That would be a good mix of old and modern.

[Bill Murphy]

The trapshooters.com chart is wrong in so many ways, I ran out of paper writing down the errors. Read it carefully.

[Jerry Harlow]

The trapshooters.com chart is wrong in so many ways, I ran out of paper writing down the errors. Read it carefully.

OK Bill, you have convinced me we are all wrong. I'm throwing away all of my TSS and going back to pure lead, maybe some vintage shells with no plastic wad.

I'm through discussing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxyiA87IF60

[Joseph Flynn]

Update:
I loaded up all 10 of my Track of the wolf shells and fired them yesterday evening. I loaded them up pretty mild using Winchester large pistol primers, 3 1/4 drams of Goex FFg and 1 1/4oz of lead shot. I used a hot glue gun to hold the overshot card in place, because I was shooting them right after and I haven't picked up any Duco yet. Everything went according to plan. I cleaned the shells by soaking in dish soap and water, which caused them to tarnish some and change color, but nothing a run through the tumbler can't fix. I slid them into my grade 3 Hammer gun and they did not appear to have expanded to the chambers yet so looks like for now I can shoot them in either of my 10 ga guns. My only question is regarding the over shot cards, because after shooting I noticed them about 5-10 yards in front of me. How far should they go from the muzzle? Is this normal or something I did wrong? Thanks

[Rick Rappe]

I stopped my desire for brass shells when all I encountered use pistol primers, and I couldn't figure out how to re-prime. (I have a big scar on one finger when a regular shotshell primer detonated when I was reloading .410s as a kid with one of those original Lee load-alls and the brass shards buried into my fingers. Happened again recently sans personal injury, when beginning to reload BP shells into plastic cases by hand. I now do black loads on the MEC, but still scoop-dumping at the powder drop station.) Can someone 'splain how to re-prime with pistol primers?

[Joseph Flynn]

I’m sorry If I’m making it sound simple, but I don’t fully understand what there is to know about re priming. You just take a punch or the reloading tool and knock the spent primer out and then start to seat the fresh primer with your fingers. Once it is in place you can use a Capping tool or you can apply even pressure on a hard surface with the reloading tool inserted in side the hull until the primer is seated. If I am missing what you mean I apologize.

[Jay Oliver]

How did they shoot? Any doubles? I love it when I get double with black powder! I have a few guns with tighter chokes that really shoot well with black powder shells. I often shoot lighter loads too, in fact, I loaded up 50 that are a notch lighter than you did. 3 drams of 1 1/2 F and 1 1/8oz of shot. This works very well on a sporting clays course for a 10.

All the wads and cards do end up all over the place. So nothing unusual about them being 10 ft away. The good news is they are biodegradable unlike plastic wads.

One of the things I like about loading brass shells is that you do it by hand and can use vintage loading tools. I do have an original adjustable powder/shot dipper I do have original cappers in 10, 12, and 16 gauge. Go on Ebay and you'll find them and other original reloading tools. This is the only way I would prime them, I don't like hammering against a flat surface. I have a 12 gauge brass reloading set from RMC that has lots of useful tools including a pin/punch for to knock the primers out, on 10 gauge shells I put the shell on an upside down socket(of about the same size) and then knock it out. On the posted picture you’ll see my dipper and capper, I didn’t put my pin/punch in for the picture, but you can see an original on the Track of the Wolf manual. You can make one or find something on Ebay.

I have really enjoyed these shells and I am glad you got a chance to try yours out already. I would love to get a group of us together and have a Parker black powder shell shoot and/or a plan a hunt using the ammunition these guns would have shot when new.

[Joseph Flynn]

Jay, I would love to do a shoot or hunt, sounds like a great idea! I am using all antique hand loading tools as well I have most of them for 10,12,and 16ga. I have acquired some From eBay and gunbroker and inherited some as well. I didn’t have a capping tool(hasn’t arrived yet)for 10ga so I used the wood push dowel/de-priming tool to push down from the inside of the case to seat the primer, I agree with you and don’t think it is a good idea or recommended to use any kind of hammering to seat them.

[Matt Buckley]

I have all the antique reloading tools as well for 10, 12, and 16 and enjoy reloading the black powder brass hulls.

[Wayne Owens]

Here is a 10 gauge lifter in a case I put together including Parker reloading tools and Track of the Wolf. 2 5/8" shells. Very enjoyable to reload and hunt with this gun.

[Rick Rappe]

A bit late in answering Josey F. about my Q on seating pistol primers, which doing it the old way with shot shells I've had 2 detonations when seating a regular primer by hand. In one instance I have a permanent scar when the brass head of a .410 separated and blew fragments into my fingers. It happened again recently when I was using the old way on a few plastic shells I cut short for some Pyrodex test loads. I was seating wads and the new primer with a wood dowel close to full 12 ga. size. The primers seemed to need a bit harder tap to get all the way in. This time, the shell rim held but the full primer force split the dowel into 4ths and my hand holding it was unhurt (whew). I am assuming the same is possible with the much softer and teeny by comparison primer (but obviously not near enough ker-bang as a shotgun primer). Any primer I might be able to seat that doesn't need more leverage than finger pressure also makes me remember the old doubles with broken firing pins that got stuck in the primer so didn't rebound and bent or broke when the gun was forced open. What am I missing?

[Joseph Flynn]

Rick, I believe I understand your concern, unfortunately I am not aware of any better or safer way to do this. I have not had a primer go off personally, but have heard similar story’s to yours. I guess I would suggest using a capping tool like the one Wayne posted above, you could wear Leather gloves when seating them as well. Sorry I can’t give you any better info, Hopefully someone else will chime in that is more help than me.

[Joseph Flynn]

Wayne, that is one beautiful case, it all looks great together!

[Jay Oliver]

This has been a good thread, sounds like we all should start planning something with hammer Parkers and black powder shells :)

Wayne, That is a gorgeous gun, accessories, case, shells. I like everything about that and need to work on something similar for both a 10 and a 12. I. You grab your case and go...have a great day in the field...reload at night for the next day. I'll send you a separate note to ask about it. What a great presentation...

Rick, I have had a primmer go off once, in a 44 special shell with the Lee Loader kit. I was more surprised than anything. I think the larger pistol primers are fairly easy to seat in the brass shells though they require more than finger pressure. The antique cappers are a nice way to go. I do have a shell holder for 12 gauge and that is really quick on just a single station press with a primer feed. Most of the time though I like using the vintage tools.

[charlie cleveland]

i to have had a primer to go off while reloading shotgun shells...it stuck into a piece of plywood on my reloading table i left it imbedded in that wood to remind me how stout a primer is..charlie.....

[Paul Harm]

Jerry, thanks for the info. It looks like someone did do some down range testing and the TSS is the way to go. I've never had a primer go 9off and I just use a dowel/hammer and a wooden table top. I'll make sure to use my old time tools [ have one for 12 & 10 ] in the future - don't need a piece of wood stuck in my hand, and knowing my luck I'd do it sooner or latter. Because I only shoot clay birds anymore, with BP in the 12 or 10 I use anywhere from 80 to a 100 grs of 2F and just 1oz of shot. The powder charge varies on how much boom I want - to excite my fellow shooters. I've even used 70grs of 3F and 1oz - works great. And you get a 100 shots out of 1 lb of powder with the 70gr charge. I know you load by volume, but I checked one time and 100grs of 2f by volume equaled a 100grs by weight.

[Jerry Harlow]

Jerry, why do you think #9 shot doesn't slow down as much as larger shot ? This is the first time I've ever heard of that. Has someone taken down range velocity test ? Thanks for any help.

More proof that the smaller TSS is faster than the bigger lead from Federal Cartridge Company courtesy of the May/June TURKEY COUNTRY from the NWTF: