Why is a 12 ga Parker a "boat anchor" these days?

[Ian Civco]

I recently asked for help with the evaluation of a 12 ga Parker shotgun and one or more responses compared a 12 ga Parker to a boat anchor. Little interest.

Why is this so? The commonality, or lack if rarity, of a 12 bore? Increasing interest amongst women who might find a 12 bore's recoil to be punishing? An increasing average age of Parker owners who might find a 12 bore uncomfortable to shoot due age and increasing frailty and/or health related issues? Less folks interested in side by side shotguns which makes the less common more affordable? Any and all of the above? Or, something else?

I think this applies to all 12 ga shotguns. A Fox Sterlingworth with good plus condition is a $500 gun and has been stuck there a very long time. I know of a 12 ga Ithaca 5E New Ithaca Double that was nearly 100% except the recoil pad was toast from sitting on it in an attic for 70+ years that brought $5750 at auction just last month, including commission.

Thoughts?

[Dave Noreen]

There are more shooter grade vintage 12-gauge doubles then there are people who want them.

[Rick Losey]

which 12 ga Parker - what grade and conditon

a few uninformed opinions doesn't make it true

but- it does seem common lower grade double guns in average or less condition - f any make - are not hot selling items right now.


ask them if they are willing to sell you a 12 ga Parker for the price of a boat anchor if they are so uninterested in them

[Ian Civco]

I should add that, not just to be PC, an interest in Parkers amongst women is a good, no great, thing! Goodness knows we need more interest in vintage side by sides, even if not 12 gauges. I sure wish I could get my wife interested.

[Ian Civco]

which 12 ga Parker - what grade and conditon

a few uninformed opinions doesn't make it true

but- it does seem common lower grade double guns in average or less condition - f any make - are not hot selling items right now.


ask them if they are willing to sell you a 12 ga Parker for the price of a boat anchor if they are so uninterested in them

GHE 12 vs Damascus barrels, 1927, with condition.

[Ian Civco]

I should add I am the prospective purchaser, so a lower price for a potential "boat anchor" is a good thing. I hope to negotiate wisely! However, and no one can predict this, nothing prevents this from becoming even more of an anchor over time. Demographics are not in the favour of Parker owners!

[Bruce Day]

If you are selling a light 1 frame 12 ga Bernard barreled boat anchor , contact me .

[Brian Dudley]

Lower grade 12g guns of any make will always be a “boat anchor” in any market as they are common. The more of them there are, the harder they are to sell.

[Alfred Greeson]

I can think of some things that make good boat anchors but never a Parker shotgun of any description. Like a nice set of concrete shoes, not in use at the moment, but never a classic Parker.

[Craig Larter]

I have been trying to sell a very nice antique DH 12ga 30" for $1850. with no interest so don't feel bad. The good news is you get a lot of gun for your dollar with 12 ga guns. I am a big fan of 12ga, there as pretty to look at as the small bores and 1/3rd the price. That way I can own three times as many! I figure why buy an expensive 28 ga long barreled Parker when I can just shoot very pleasant 3/4 oz loads in my 12's. :rotf:

[todd allen]

My safe is full of boat anchors. Some of them have nice wood and engraving. Being a hard core 12 gauge guy helps.

[John Allen]

There are several reasons 12 gauge doubles in general are loosing value.The main one in my opinion,is that very few serious shooters now use a 12 for anything but duck hunting. The advent of steel shot put most 12 doubles on the sideline.Younger waterfowlers want more firepower and a gun that can get wet and beat up without worry.As for upland hunters,most have gone to small gauge guns.Also,the gun market has gone to almost a pure collector market.Any gun in mint condition,even a 12,will bring more than ever.But the price difference between 100% and 90% condition has never been greater.

[Ian Civco]

I have been trying to sell a very nice antique DH 12ga 30" for $1850. with no interest so don't feel bad. The good news is you get a lot of gun for your dollar with 12 ga guns. I am a big fan of 12ga, there as pretty to look at as the small bores and 1/3rd the price. That way I can own three times as many! I figure why buy an expensive 28 ga long barreled Parker when I can just shoot very pleasant 3/4 oz loads in my 12's. :rotf:

That's a nice gun and no interest at $1850. It makes the GHE I inquired about probably less than a $1500 gun.

[Craig Larter]

Good luck in your search but a PM to me about the price of my gun would have been much more appropriate in my opinion.

John so if u don't shoot a small bore your not a serious shooter??? That's news to most the sxs shooters I know.

[Ian Civco]

Good luck in your search but a PM to me about the price of my gun would have been much more appropriate in my opinion.
Your opinions about price are just yours, but no need to trash prices you feel are not appropriate.

No, I didn't say that. $1850 seems really fair for the gun you have for sale. I am looking at a GHE a friend has for sale, price not determined yet. If that doesn't go through, yours at $1850 could be an option. I am amazed these are that low these days. I had an interest in this stuff years ago, and prices are much, much lower now.

[Bill Murphy]

Well, why are you complaining about low prices if you are a buyer? Start writing checks and adding to your collection. There are wonderful 12 gauge guns for sale today at great prices. Your question should be "Where should I be looking?" I am finding way more great guns than I can buy, at great prices.

[Ian Civco]

Okay, where should I be looking?

Right now I'm waiting for my friend to decide if he wants to sell me his GHE or not. He's still digesting the fact it's not a 4k gun in today's market.

[Brian Dudley]

Tell him to put it out on the open market for $4k. Or even for $3k and see how long it takes for him to realize it wont sell. He MAY get some interest around $2500 or so. But him crying about one buyer not giving $4k is hardly a test of the market and the true “right price” for the gun.

[John Allen]

Brian's suggestion is a great idea.Let him put it out at $4000 and see what happens.If he sells it,good for your friend.If not, you can make him a reasonable offer and you both are happy.

[Craig Budgeon]

Markets change, 45 years ago 16 ga. guns were worth a third less than 12 bores, damascus guns brought a fraction of what a steel barrel guns brought, trap and skeet were the popular forms of competitive shooting replaced by sporting clays today, pheasants were plentiful and challenging now they are all but extinct in upstate New York unless you go to a game farm, and without a doubt there a fewer individuals willing to pay todays asking prices while years ago there was a line of people willing to buy good guns.

[Craig Budgeon]

Oh yeah, the internet has saturated the market with good 12ga. guns.

[edgarspencer]

I’d rather pass up an $1850 grade 3 and wait for a good (?) grade 2, said no one ever.

[Ian Civco]

Brian's suggestion is a great idea.Let him put it out at $4000 and see what happens.If he sells it,good for your friend.If not, you can make him a reasonable offer and you both are happy.

He is an octogenarian and it was quite time consuming even for him to locate the gun which ended up being in the most obvious place after all. He doesn't even wake up most days until noon due to a steady infusion of Old Grandad the evening before, which often can run to well after midnight. Not the type to seek a customer or market it. He just had decided that it was worth 3k two years ago and increased at $500 every 01 January. He will likely take a few weeks or months to comprehend that the going rate is much less and decide if he would have the cash or just keep the gun.

[Don Strelioff]

The gun in question has been evaluated on another posting ghe 12 ga Damascus nice gun good condition it is not s boat anchor it is not a 4 k gun and it is not a 1500$ gun it is a 2000$-2500$ and if the owner listed it for sale he would get that money for it because you the potential buyer thinks it’s a 1500$ gun does not mean that is what it is worth. The owner has not listed it anywhere for any price so this is all speculation and wishful thinking.

[Ian Civco]

The gun in question has been evaluated on another posting ghe 12 ga Damascus nice gun good condition it is not s boat anchor it is not a 4 k gun and it is not a 1500$ gun it is a 2000$-2500$ and if the owner listed it for sale he would get that money for it because you the potential buyer thinks it’s a 1500$ gun does not mean that is what it is worth. The owner has not listed it anywhere for any price so this is all speculation and wishful thinking.

Yes, the GHE was evaluated in another thread. Various opinions were given.

Over in the Classified section right now there is a very nice DH with Damascus barrels and antique, which is more desirable, for sale at $1850 and a GH for sale at $1895, also with Damascus barrels, but not antique. In similar condition to the GHE. Both haven't jumped off the shelf. Seems like $1800 is a stretch for the GHE in today's market.

In the GHE thread, 12 gauges were described as a boat anchor. That's where I got that from.

[Don Strelioff]

I have sold many firearms not many Parker’s but many , many many pre 64 model 70 Winchester’s and there is a firearm that has pricing all over the map it is subjective to one person a certain model is worth x amount of $’s and that model may sit at what seems overpriced and all of a sudden it sold for the price that it was marketed at this is know different. Many factors come in to play . I have been making a living in the firearms industry since since 1977 nothing is carved in stone As stated this particular gun has not be marketed on any site so know one has had the opportunity to buy this particular gun it may be the gun that one person has been looking for and it would be sold . It’s a very individual thing .

[Dean Romig]

I don’t believe a Parker with Damascus barrels made pre-1898 is any more desirable than if it was made later than 1898. A desirable Parker’s individual attributes should always far outweigh it being “antique” or not.





.

[Ian Civco]

Pre 1899 is definitely more desirable than post 1898. Cash and carry. No paperwork, no FFL, no record...

This is the case with Winchesters, Colts, etc.

[Dean Romig]

I disagree - If you like the gun and want the gun - Buy the gun.


If one insists on “No paperwork, no FFL, no record” you must have something to hide.


.

[edgarspencer]

Pre 1899 is definitely more desirable than post 1898. Cash and carry. No paperwork, no FFL, no record...

This is the case with Winchesters, Colts, etc.

:rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Ian Civco]

I disagree - If you like the gun and want the gun - Buy the gun.



Certainly that is always the case. But if presented two identical guns at similar prices, one being antique and the other not, I would definitely opt for the antique gun first.

FFL paperwork is a PITA and probably unconstitutional.

[Dean Romig]

1. if presented two identical guns at similar prices, one being antique and the other not, I would definitely opt for the antique gun first.

2. FFL paperwork is a PITA and probably unconstitutional.


1. That is certainly your prerogative but it doesn’t make a classic American SXS shotgun made before 1899 any more desirable to anyone else.

2. The FFL laws in place today have been tested against the US Constitution and the only people who’s right to legally obtain a firearm have been abridged are those people with a criminal background.
But I agree it’s a PITA.




.

[Brian Dudley]

Most assume the opposite. But, when you buy a gun on a nics check, serial numbers are not given to the atf. The firearms information is recorded in the dealers bound book and on the 4473 form, and both are retained by the dealer in their business records.
When a nics check is called in the only question asked by the “examiner” at the call center is “type of transaction and firearm?”. Answer is “Sale of Long Gun”. That is it. Period. All they know if that a long gun is being sold. They dont even ask how many. It could be 25 long guns or just one.

The only time that serial number would ever be communicated to the atf by that dealer is in the event of a trace. Which means the gun would have to have been used in a crime or stolen/recovered. The atf works FORWARD from the manufacturer to current day. And with a gun as old as a Parker... they wouldn't get very far.

[edgarspencer]

Pre 1899 is definitely more desirable than post 1898. Cash and carry. No paperwork, no FFL, no record...

This is the case with Winchesters, Colts, etc.
That statement is absurd.
I am quite familiar with many advanced collectors of Colt and Winchesters. I am confident that none of them limit their interests to 'antique only' firearms.
No point in considering Henry's, and 1866 guns, or 1876 guns as none of them were made post 1898, however there were plenty of 1873, 1885, 1886, 1892, 1894 and 1895 guns made well into the 20th century.
Anyone who even casually follows the results of nearly any good auction company today, is able to see countless numbers of guns selling well into six figures, with no correlation to the BATF determantion of antique status

But if presented two identical guns at similar prices, one being antique and the other not, I would definitely opt for the antique gun first.
This caveat does nothing to diminish the flaw in your first statement, other than to say YOU would 'opt' for the gun without paperwork.

[Ian Civco]

That statement is absurd.
I am quite familiar with many advanced collectors of Colt and Winchesters. I am confident that none of them limit their interests to 'antique only' firearms.
No point in considering Henry's, and 1866 guns, or 1876 guns as none of them were made post 1898, however there were plenty of 1873, 1885, 1886, 1892, 1894 and 1895 guns made well into the 20th century.
Anyone who even casually follows the results of nearly any good auction company today, is able to see countless numbers of guns selling well into six figures, with no correlation to the BATF determantion of antique status


This caveat does nothing to diminish the flaw in your first statement, other than to say YOU would 'opt' for the gun without paperwork.

I don't think collectors of Winchesters and Colts limit themselves to only pre 1899 firearms, but there is definitely a premium for these vs a similar but post 1898 gun. About 20%. I know Winchesters and Colts far better than side by sides and this is nearly gospel.

[Ian Civco]

Most assume the opposite. But, when you buy a gun on a nics check, serial numbers are not given to the atf. The firearms information is recorded in the dealers bound book and on the 4473 form, and both are retained by the dealer in their business records.
When a nics check is called in the only question asked by the “examiner” at the call center is “type of transaction and firearm?”. Answer is “Sale of Long Gun”. That is it. Period. All they know if that a long gun is being sold. They dont even ask how many. It could be 25 long guns or just one.

The only time that serial number would ever be communicated to the atf by that dealer is in the event of a trace. Which means the gun would have to have been used in a crime or stolen/recovered. The atf works FORWARD from the manufacturer to current day. And with a gun as old as a Parker... they wouldn't get very far.

Yes, all true. But you never know someday if bound books get into the wrong hands, whatever that may be.

Okay, at the very least, I can have an antique firearm delivered to my door and not have to pay an FFL fee and can use that money instead for a bottle of Jack Daniel's.

[Eric Eis]

Okay, at the very least, I can have an antique firearm delivered to my door and not have to pay an FFL fee and can use that money instead for a bottle of Jack Daniel's.

If you want to have it shipped to your door C&R license for $30 for 3 years and you can buy any gun more than 50 years old.

[Ian Civco]

If you want to have it shipped to your door C&R license for $30 for 3 years and you can buy any gun more than 50 years old.

If one buys 5 or so guns over 3 years is it worth it for the paperwork? I don't know as I've never looked into it and not something I considered before.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian's post reminds me of a funny story. The Parker Research Committee was hard at work at Ilion in 1998 when a Remington employee came into the archives and gave us a telegram or cable from an Italian police department. They implied a Parker shotgun had been used in a crime and asked if Remington could help them in their investigation. The Remington employee just said, "Can you guys handle this?" I assume Mark Conrad or Ron Kirby took the appropriate action. The serial number was very early but I can't remember whether we found the gun in the records. I still have a copy of the communication in my files. The week we were in the archives, we were asked to reply to any Parker related correspondence that came to Remington during that time.

[edgarspencer]

I don't think collectors of Winchesters and Colts limit themselves to only pre 1899 firearms, but there is definitely a premium for these vs a similar but post 1898 gun. About 20%. I know Winchesters and Colts far better than side by sides and this is nearly gospel.

Once again, I can't agree with you. You use words like "definitely" and "gospel" like there's no other opinion that matter's and that makes me suspect of your whole thought process. I have been collecting Colts, Winchesters, and Parkers, and ONLY those three makes for over 60 years. In my 72 years, I've met some of the best known collectors, and learned from each of them. Knowing what and how they have, and still do buy guns makes nothing but good common sense. There ain't no gospel according to anyone I know that says a pre '99 gun of equal condition is worth 20% more than a post '99 gun. Spend enough time behind your table at the Baltimore gun show, arguably the preeminent antique arms show in the east and you'll know this to be true.

[Ian Civco]

Once again, I can't agree with you. You use words like "definitely" and "gospel" like there's no other opinion that matter's and that makes me suspect of your whole thought process. I have been collecting Colts, Winchesters, and Parkers, and ONLY those three makes for over 60 years. In my 72 years, I've met some of the best known collectors, and learned from each of them. Knowing what and how they have, and still do buy guns makes nothing but good common sense. There ain't no gospel according to anyone I know that says a pre '99 gun of equal condition is worth 20% more than a post '99 gun. Spend enough time behind your table at the Baltimore gun show, arguably the preeminent antique arms show in the east and you'll know this to be true.

Spend time on the Winchester Forum and you will see I am correct. Hell, the Red Book of Winchester values differentiates from pre and post 1899 values. There was an uproar of sorts when it was determined that Madis' serial number charts included way too many Winchesters as antique and collectors paid a premium for post 1898 guns.

I've been to Baltimore several times.

Quality always brings a premium pre or post 1898.

[Eric Eis]

If one buys 5 or so guns over 3 years is it worth it for the paperwork? I don't know as I've never looked into it and not something I considered before.

You buy a ledger bound book, in it you list the date, make, cal/ga, serial number, who you bought from and then a who you sell it to if you do sell it or trade it. That's it so yes it's worth it to me and many other collectors. Go out of state to a shoot like the Southern see a gun buy it and give them a copy of your license. You have certainly taken this thread way off your original question

[Ian Civco]

That statement is absurd.
I am quite familiar with many advanced collectors of Colt and Winchesters. I am confident that none of them limit their interests to 'antique only' firearms.
No point in considering Henry's, and 1866 guns, or 1876 guns as none of them were made post 1898, however there were plenty of 1873, 1885, 1886, 1892, 1894 and 1895 guns made well into the 20th century.
Anyone who even casually follows the results of nearly any good auction company today, is able to see countless numbers of guns selling well into six figures, with no correlation to the BATF determantion of antique status


This caveat does nothing to diminish the flaw in your first statement, other than to say YOU would 'opt' for the gun without paperwork.

Okay, have I proved that I am correct? https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rfiles/premium-for-pre-1899-lever-action-winchesters/#p92001

[Rick Riddell]

Circle of life: as younger shooter you don't have the strength to carry a 12 and as you get older you don't have the strength to carry a 12!!

[edgarspencer]

Madis' serial number charts included way too many Winchesters as antique .

Ancient news. a few models were off by a year

I've been to Baltimore several times..

As have I. This would have been my 25th anniversary had it not been cancelled.

Quality always brings a premium pre or post 1898.

At last you've said something I can agree with.

[Ken Snyder]

Ian,
This is the Parker forum. Perhaps it is just my impression but your tone is becoming increasingly argumentative. May I make a suggestion? Take this for what it's worth in today's .02 valuation....

Arguing with senior members of this board sells the experience you could be having well short of its potential. Many of the gentlemen that monitor this forum are genuinely interested in helping anyone with an interest in Parker guns. This is the place to come and listen, to learn, to absorb history from all aspects as it pertains to the Parker Gun Company, the men and their creations. This is a "low noise to info" forum where the members do everything they can to stay on track and provide solid information to help both novice and advanced collectors widen their horizons.

There are other online forum options if you're cruising for a conflict.

Kindness and civility will always be welcome attributes anywhere you go.

Have a great day!
Ken

[edgarspencer]

Okay, have I proved that I am correct? https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rfiles/premium-for-pre-1899-lever-action-winchesters/#p92001

Haha. It said so on the internet, so it must be true.:rotf: I'm only going by experience buying and selling for 60 years, Not trying to make me feel better about my old guns.
I would be happy to put 20% on some of my pre 1898 1894s if you've got the money. My wife says I have too many pistol grip takedowns with set triggers anyway. Make her happy.

[Craig Larter]

Ian please go away.

[Ian Civco]

Ian please go away.

Nice! What a wonderful welcoming forum!

Other forums are much less obtuse.

Congratulations, I was contemplating your Parker DH for sale if I don't snag the one from my friend. Perhaps I'll look elsewhere!

[Ian Civco]

Ian,
This is the Parker forum. Perhaps it is just my impression but your tone is becoming increasingly argumentative. May I make a suggestion? Take this for what it's worth in today's .02 valuation....

Arguing with senior members of this board sells the experience you could be having well short of its potential. Many of the gentlemen that monitor this forum are genuinely interested in helping anyone with an interest in Parker guns. This is the place to come and listen, to learn, to absorb history from all aspects as it pertains to the Parker Gun Company, the men and their creations. This is a "low noise to info" forum where the members do everything they can to stay on track and provide solid information to help both novice and advanced collectors widen their horizons.

There are other online forum options if you're cruising for a conflict.

Kindness and civility will always be welcome attributes anywhere you go.

Have a great day!
Ken

Y'all were increasingly argumentative and refused to even acknowledge that antique firearms might sell for more than a comparable one. Then when I provided at least a shred of evidence, y'all sneered.

What a bunch of self absorbed know it alls.

[Dean Romig]

Ian, you were comparing apples to oranges when you insisted we adopt your tenets on desirability of "antique" Winchesters and apply them to our Parker collecting preferences.... it doesn't work and now we're the ones who are "self absorbed”?

We hope you find a nice Parker.




.

[Bill Murphy]

The percentage of know nothings is very high over on the Winchester site, including, maybe especially, a certain moderator. You are using a poor example to prove your ridiculous point. I have been a "Baltimore guy" for more than fifty years and know a little about Winchesters and Parkers. On many sites, you would be known as "Are you a kid?". That is the suspicion of many of us here. "Are you a kid?" As our poster CL says, "Go away".

[Joseph Flynn]

Yes, the GHE was evaluated in another thread. Various opinions were given.

Over in the Classified section right now there is a very nice DH with Damascus barrels and antique, which is more desirable, for sale at $1850 and a GH for sale at $1895, also with Damascus barrels, but not antique. In similar condition to the GHE. Both haven't jumped off the shelf. Seems like $1800 is a stretch for the GHE in today's market.

In the GHE thread, 12 gauges were described as a boat anchor. That's where I got that from.

Ian, the GH was spoken for the first day it was posted. I believe the gun was priced very fairly. If the GHE you are looking at is in the same condition it should fetch more than a GH. I believe it should be priced in the $2500-$3000 range and that would be a "priced to sell" price.

[Ian Civco]

"Are you a kid?". That is the suspicion of many of us here. "Are you a kid?" As our poster CL says, "Go away".

And what is "are you a kid" supposed to mean?

My general impression of this forum is it's clique, a bunch of good old boys who spend all day putting "likes" on their friend's posts.

Look around you, folks! Wake up. The gun collecting world is full of grey haired folks. Some day you will have no one to sell your Parkers to. Being condescending doesn't help.

I seriously doubt I'll renew my "Parker Pages". Now that Parkers have become more affordable for middle class folks, like me, I thought I would develop an interest in them.

I think I'll see if I can purchase my friend's GHE and maybe I succeed, maybe I don't. And then call it a day.

This group of Parker collectors is just way too snooty for me. I'll stick to my smoke filled American Legions and VFWs where I fit in, once social distancing ends. I'll be sure to wave as you pass by in your Rolls on the way to the country club.

[Jay Oliver]

Ian...you got some great advice in several of your threads/posts and decided not to listen(or didn't like the answers). I would use the energy you are taking in telling this group that they might not know what they are talking about and go get that GHE.

Show up with a bottle of whiskey and some documentation from this forum. It seemed to me you were more focused on a good deal instead of a good Parker. If the range in value is 2-3K and you paid at the top of the range it may be worth if you really like the gun and the seller is a friend. The ejectors do add significant value. I would explain you want the gun and like that it was part of your friend's family/collection...then close the deal. Many collectors like to see there guns go on to someone the know so that may help.

By the way, I might not put a premium on it, but I agree with you that an antique gun is icing on the cake in terms of transactional purposes. Get your CR License too...it's easy and all the big events and auction houses will accept it. Some dealers may insist on an FFL and that is their prerogative. I use my C&R all the time, every collector should have one.

I have learned so much from this group, but I try to listen just as much as I talk.

Get that GHE and start shooting it, you will glad you did...

[Ian Civco]

Ian...you got some great advice in several of your threads/posts and decided not to listen(or didn't like the answers). I would use the energy you are taking in telling this group that they might not know what they are talking about and go get that GHE.

Show up with a bottle of whiskey and some documentation from this forum. It seemed to me you were more focused on a good deal instead of a good Parker. If the range in value is 2-3K and you paid at the top of the range it may be worth if you really like the gun and the seller is a friend. The ejectors do add significant value. I would explain you want the gun and like that it was part of your friend's family/collection...then close the deal. Many collectors like to see there guns go on to someone the know so that may help.

By the way, I might not put a premium on it, but I agree with you that an antique gun is icing on the cake in terms of transactional purposes. Get your CR License too...it's easy and all the big events and auction houses will accept it. Some dealers may insist on an FFL and that is their prerogative. I use my C&R all the time, every collector should have one.

I have learned so much from this group, but I try to listen just as much as I talk.

Get that GHE and start shooting it, you will glad you did...

I never considered a C & R license as the vast majority of my stuff is pre 1899. It is something worth considering I suppose. The potential for an ATF audit has held me back.

[Brian Dudley]

I never considered a C & R license as the vast majority of my stuff is pre 1899. It is something worth considering I suppose. The potential for an ATF audit has held me back.


The C&R is well worth the money if you buy a lot of guns that are 50 years old or more. And if you buy more than one gun on it, it has paid for itself. You may run into some fuss with sellers that wont accept them. But most do.

The ATF would have to really have nothing to do to audit C&Rs today.
The last time I had an audit for my FFL (which was after being in business for 8 years mind you) the investigator told me that his office, which covers half of our state had not visited a C&R in about 15 years. Before that they were only supposed to visit 3 per year.

[Kirk Potter]

I no longer have a C&R but did at one time.. I have a good relationship with the FFL who I use, and they are only about a couple of minutes drive from my house.

But, when I did have my C&R, I was audited by the ATF within the first 6 months. So never say never.

[todd allen]

And what is "are you a kid" supposed to mean?

My general impression of this forum is it's clique, a bunch of good old boys who spend all day putting "likes" on their friend's posts.

Look around you, folks! Wake up. The gun collecting world is full of grey haired folks. Some day you will have no one to sell your Parkers to. Being condescending doesn't help.

I seriously doubt I'll renew my "Parker Pages". Now that Parkers have become more affordable for middle class folks, like me, I thought I would develop an interest in them.

I think I'll see if I can purchase my friend's GHE and maybe I succeed, maybe I don't. And then call it a day.

This group of Parker collectors is just way too snooty for me. I'll stick to my smoke filled American Legions and VFWs where I fit in, once social distancing ends. I'll be sure to wave as you pass by in your Rolls on the way to the country club.
Ian, in my humble opinion you are laboring under a misconception. I have been around this group almost from the beginning. There is a mix of fairly successful folks, and commoners like me. This is not about your station in life. This group has a common interest in guns in general, and Parkers in particular. The typical vehicle will be a well used pickup truck, or an SUV, not a Roll Royce.
We welcome newcomers, and offer guidance and knowledge freely. I'm sorry to hear that you got the wrong impression. This is fixable, or at least should be.
First. Understand you are in the midst of a very down to earth group. Don't make sweeping generalizations about a group this large.
Pull back, buy your Parker if it works for you, and ask questions based on the quest for knowledge. You won't be disappointed.

[Bill Holcombe]

Ian, good luck on your purchase. Parkers and this forum are great. While I am significantly on the young end of our forum's age spectrum, I have been able to have a membership to CCA, WCA, and this forum. Even made it to the CCA convention in Dallas last fall. I enjoy collecting the others and actually have more Colts and Winnies than I do Parkers, but this is the only association I have put in for a lifetime membership on. I haven't purchased a parker in close to a year, but I am happy with my 4. This is a great forum with tremendous knowledge and is very friendly. Some members get a little more defensive than others about postings but it is a good crew. I find it far more engaging than winchester collectors forum.

I encourage you to find that parker and buy it if it interests you. I purchased a nice VH 7 or so years back that has turned into 2 DHs, a CH, and a CHE I dearly love each of. All 12 gauges.....ok technically one is a 10 ga with a 12 ga barrel added at the factory
Fine guns and I am more than happy with them. Not a boat anchor in the bunch. I have shot a multitude of brownings, Remington, and winchester shotguns over the years and not a one including A5s, 21s, superposeds, model 12s, 870s, 1100s, or whatever else I have fired have matched the shootability of my parkers. I heartily encourage you to try it out if you have the interest.

One point you may be missing is that the E on your GHE adds a pretty good premium for MOST buyers. Personally ejectors vs extractors doesn't amount to a hill of beans to me.

General advice is to buy the best parker you can afford. It took a bit to get me to understand that and stop buying whatever junker parker I could find or easily afford. They just eventually pass down the road and are more of a pain to sell.

Again, this thread has riled and ruffled some feathers on both sides. But if you stick around you will find we are a pretty amiable bunch.

Regarding premiums for age....I would not pay a premium for a pre 1899 parker. It's a nice bonus on an internet buy, but nothing quality wise....Now I might pay a premium for a 3 dog DH or CH but that is another matter.

[Rick Riddell]

Stick around and help keep this alive, you'll get to know the ones to avoid and you'll see some of the same attitude from the same people on other sites, so it's just not here. I've seen a good number up and leave due to a few here, hate to see it happen! There are some really good guys here.

[Ian Civco]

Stick around and help keep this alive, you'll get to know the ones to avoid and you'll see some of the same attitude from the same people on other sites, so it's just not here. I've seen a good number up and leave due to a few here, hate to see it happen! There are some really good guys here.

Sure, every site has folks on it with attitudes. However, I have to say this site takes the cake when it comes to bad attitudes. I wonder how many folks have been driven away over the years because of it. Every person interested in Parkers drives up demand and a potential increase in sale price when one wishes to sell their rusty relics in order to fund their retirement. Why, then, discourage it?

Being completely closed minded when I present a point of view with evidence to prove it and then being told to "go away" when other forum members are proven to be wrong is not exactly a warm welcome.

But I intend to stick around. I have thick skin...

[edgarspencer]

Being completely closed minded when I present a point of view with evidence to prove it and then being told to "go away" when other forum members are proven to be wrong is not exactly a warm welcome.

But I intend to stick around. I have thick skin...

Ian, Running back to a Winchester site, and soliciting ONE responce doesn't PROVE anything. Bona fide sales, and auction results is a much better indicator of relative value. Keep in mind, 1898 was an arbitrary date chosen when the 1968 GCA was implimented. There is no one particular relationship in guns manufactured prior to, or after that date. Colt had very many fewer changes to existing models, and the first generation SAA ran for 25 years prior to, and 45 years after 1898. There are lots of 2nd gen guns bringing more than first gen guns (Buyer trends and whimsy?)
Lots of Special Order feature from Winchester didn't come out until after 1898.
I will grant that many people get an attitude towards government, big brother, when it comes to going on record (4473,etc) buying a gun, but buying a gun without paperwork doesn't impart any additional quality to the gun, making the GUN more valuable, only a value to your individual preference. No different than buying a gun from a guy down the road because you didn't have to go to the other side of town, using more gas.
Do some more homework and the C&R license. It makes life much simpler, even for the casual collector. There aren't many 50 year old guns that concern the BATF guys anyway.
I won't argue that I can get my back up, just like guys on any forum. I haven't spent two minutes on the Winny forums in years, partly because they have as many opinionated people as any other site, and partly because, despite accumulating a lot of Winchesters, they don't get my juices flowing like a nice Parker (12,28, hammer or hammerless). I collect the Parkers, Colts and Winchesters, because they are Connecticut guns. Not a coincidence that those three makes have far fewer swings in value, and overall, always trend upward, some moreso than others.
I'm glad you're sticking around. You wound me up right from the getgo by using words like Gospel, Definitely, like your statement is cast in stone. I don't give two shits what you think about old people, but we were young once, but you haven't been old yet.

[allen newell]

Edgar, you have a wonderful way with words. Thank you.
Ian, stick around. Life with Parkers only gets more interesting.

[Ian Civco]

Ian, Running back to a Winchester site, and soliciting ONE responce doesn't PROVE anything. Bona fide sales, and auction results is a much better indicator of relative value.

Well, you are obviously set in your ways! The easiest way to quickly confirm my hypothesis was to create that thread on the Winchester Forum. Multiple publications confirm this as do threads on the Colt forum as well. A comparison of recent auction sales, although time consuming, would likely prove the same.

Maybe shotguns are different. Purdeys are often refinished and not scorned, maybe Winchesters and Colts are different than Parkers.

I did some research about the Gun Control Act of 1968 previously. I had previously believed that in 1968, 70 years was determined to be antique, leading to the question of why wouldn't a 1950 production gun be an antique today. It has nothing to do with age but rather capability. The Mauser 1898 action was deemed "modern", but, due to a clerical error, the cutoff was 01 Jan 1899 and not 01 Jan 1898, gaining an extra year of antique status.

Makes sense. Someday an AR 15 will be 70 or 100 years old and they ain't exactly quaint.

[Rich Anderson]

You started off comparing a Fox Sterlingworth to an Ithaca 5E as far as price goes. Thats an apple to oranges comparison.
The gun market as a whole is in a slump not just 12 ga guns. I have a BHE live bird gun thats been for sale with a reputable dealer for a long time as well as an upgraded Parker A1 special 28ga two barrel set. I was going to take both guns back at the Southern, then The NE shoot but as both have been cancelled I'll wait a while longer as I hate shipping guns.

I wouldn't pay $2500 for a GHE 12 when a gun such as Craigs DH can be had for less. FWIW I know Craig and he's an honest fellow who sells a gun for an honest price. If you want the gun your friend has my suggestion is take a fifith of his favorite beverage and when it's about half gone ask to see the gun, start haggling price and walk away with it if it's what you want.

[Ian Civco]

I wouldn't pay $2500 for a GHE 12 when a gun such as Craigs DH can be had for less. FWIW I know Craig and he's an honest fellow who sells a gun for an honest price. If you want the gun your friend has my suggestion is take a fifith of his favorite beverage and when it's about half gone ask to see the gun, start haggling price and walk away with it if it's what you want.

That's a very valid statement! That very nice DH for $1850 makes it quite difficult to shell out much more than $1500 for the GHE. What's going for the GHE is it's local and I've had it in my hands, and the owner did not insult me, LOL!

Under the influence of Old Grandad is likely to get me further. Have to wait for the state stores to open.

[edgarspencer]

Well, you are obviously set in your ways! I am, and have a pretty good library of experieces in order to rule out what doesn't appeal to me. Ya get that with age.(And NOT being an Alligator; ALL mouth, and NO ears) I've done the English smoothbores, and double rifles, the German combination guns, and quite a few military guns. It came down to the Wichesters, Colt, and Parkers. All the rest was fluff. The easiest way to quickly confirm my hypothesis was to create that thread on the Winchester Forum.I think a sampling of one is not really what they call statistical analysis, but this running back and forth between here and the WACA forum is entertaining:corn::corn::corn: Multiple publications confirm this as do threads on the Colt forum as well. A comparison of recent auction sales, although time consuming, would likely prove the same. I'm sure you can find publications that support your opinion. I see lots of opinions on Parkers, right here. Much of them are personal, and somewhat supportive of their own belief their collection is "worth" a certain amount. When it's all said and done, what they actually trade hands for is the only real test. Same holds true at auctions, and all you have to do is look at the recent past of Morphy and Julia auction liquidating the Petersen collection and several other large collections. There were some beautiful 1873 & 1876 guns, pre '98, but there were many more of his guns bringing high 5, and 6 figures that were made in the 20th century. I have years worth of their catalogs, but only because they're too pretty to throw out.
I did some research about the Gun Control Act of 1968 previously. I had previously believed that in 1968, 70 years was determined to be antique, leading to the question of why wouldn't a 1950 production gun be an antique today. That's a very good question, but don't ever confuse people who write these things with someone who actually knows stuff.If I'm not mistaken, there was no C&R license category in 1968, so a gun was either modern, or antique Why is the C&R cutoff 50years and not 70? It has nothing to do with age but rather capability. The Mauser 1898 action was deemed "modern", but, due to a clerical error, the cutoff was 01 Jan 1899 and not 01 Jan 1898, gaining an extra year of antique status.There is a very extensive document defining what is "Modern", C&R Eligible, and "Antique". It's available from BATF. Especially useful in these days of toilet paper shortages. Guns are categorized, not just by their model number, i.e. 1898 Mauser, but also by year of manufacture.
Someday an AR 15 will be 70 or 100 years old and they ain't exactly quaint. The AR-15, and M-16 first came out well over 50 years ago, and AR-15s are C&R. The M-16 can be C&R qualified, but further controlled by NFA, so C&R eligible is irrelevant . Individual states may ban them but that doesn't alter their BATF designation.
Despite this deep and lasting friendship we've developed, this is my last comment on the subject as the thread has gone way off the rails.

[Craig Larter]

Ian gun collecting is more than a dollars and cents endeavor in my opinion. It is a passion with many personal twists and turns, likes and dislikes. Much like acquiring art one man's beauty is another man's dislike. I would say 99 percent of the forum members are passionate Parker collectors and price is a consideration but not their primary concern. We aren't trading stocks, we are passionate gun art collectors. Many of us have way over paid the market price to obtain an example that satisfies our passion. We're not concerned about future returns, the satisfaction we get from living with and using these fine guns is our compensation. I am a baby boom generation guy and I am uncomfortable with the edgy dialogue that seems to be the status quo with the younger generation. Many seem to know everything and dismissive of grey haired people. I think the best approach is always to tone down the dialogue.

[Milton C Starr]

I dont think its fair to assume all the older members here who can collect nicer Parkers as rich snobs . I have seen this assumption before when it comes to expensive doubles in general . I have met many financially successful old fellows when I did quail hunts . Most were courteous and down to earth people . The old man who let me shoot his Purdey was as well and seemed excited someone took a interest in it .

Being 27 though I have realized alot of my generation expects to start out with everything , a nice house , fancy cars and whatever whims having wealth provides .
From my perspective though you build up to that over years of good fortune and a level head .

[allen newell]

Amen to this post.

[Dean Weber]

According to this thread, we the association, judge people by a number of socio-economic indicators so I will be transparent so we don't have to discuss whether I am young, old, or a snob. I will be 55 in a few weeks and I have exchanged tens of thousands of dollars with my esteemed fellow members. Yet, I am not independently wealthy and have much to learn from all of you.

I am also a new member who has looked for years without committing and rarely posting. Why, you might ask? The answer is complex, but this thread is a good indicator. I do not absolve Mr. Bojangles for his part in this discussion, but it appears to me we have implemented a mob mentality within this thread (this is not the first time). We have also gone so far as to tell Mr. Bojangles he is not welcome. I am embarrassed by this thread.

When I think of a Parker, I think of a gentleman. Perhaps, we as a society have lost decorum. However, we as an association do not have to succumb to the age of using a keyboard to engage in a conflict and bicker over semantics. I challenge us to be better than this.
Best,
Dean Weber

[allen newell]

Amen please

[Ian Civco]

According to this thread, we the association, judge people by a number of socio-economic indicators so I will be transparent so we don't have to discuss whether I am young, old, or a snob. I will be 55 in a few weeks and I have exchanged tens of thousands of dollars with my esteemed fellow members. Yet, I am not independently wealthy and have much to learn from all of you.

I am also a new member who has looked for years without committing and rarely posting. Why, you might ask? The answer is complex, but this thread is a good indicator. I do not absolve Mr. Bojangles for his part in this discussion, but it appears to me we have implemented a mob mentality within this thread (this is not the first time). We have also gone so far as to tell Mr. Bojangles he is not welcome. I am embarrassed by this thread.

When I think of a Parker, I think of a gentleman. Perhaps, we as a society have lost decorum. However, we as an association do not have to succumb to the age of using a keyboard to engage in a conflict and bicker over semantics. I challenge us to be better than this.
Best,
Dean Weber

Thank you for your kind words.

I will agree perhaps I'm not an angel, but this forum feels not much more than sixth grade where someone is bullied and their friends all cheer on the bully. As exhibited by those who did not want to acknowledge my opinion, even so called "experts" who were proven wrong, and all their "friends" acknowledge the true greatness of their most juvenile post.

Too bad that instead of having an open mind to ideas that differ from what one wants to believe, the response is just to make it go away.

[Dean Weber]

Ian,
I see you are a veterinarian. Shoot me a PM and we can discuss hunting dogs.

[todd allen]

I come to this site to learn, or share something. I think that is the mission of the PGCA.
I own a number of working guns that happen to be Parkers, and I love the exchange of knowledge, and sharing of beautiful guns.
There are plenty of sites out there that people can go to for a good fight. I happen to own one, and it's NOT the Shooting Sportsman site, if you know what I mean. (I'm not rich, but am a Luckydog)
On these pages, when snarkiness comes out, I disconnect. Not because I'm afraid of a fight, it's because I'm in someone else's house, and choose to abide by the rules.

[Pete Lester]

I will wade in. First I like boat anchors, I call them shooters. All my doubles are used for hunting. Mostly salt water duck hunting which is not a good place for a high condition or high grade gun IMO. Where can I find a modern double of the same quality as a mechanically correct Trojan or Sterlingworth for the same price? Some pretty nice people here shoot boat anchors, I don't really care what my friends shoot and if they are my friends they don't care what I shoot either. My guns are not my investments, they are my toys, and over the years it's been win some, lose some. Maybe markets have changed and put more in the lose some column, so what, I had years and years of enjoyment with those for the difference. I have a 12ga Trojan I like to shoot sporting clays with, even more so than my GHE Skeet. Truth be told my friends don't look at my gun, good or bad they only seem look at my score at the end of day. Some days they are quiet other days they laugh. Try to have some fun with your boat anchors.

[Dean Romig]

Some of us have shot with Pete and a few of us wish our ‘boat anchors’ shot as well as his ‘boat anchors’ do.





.

[Pete Lester]

Some of us have shot with Pete and a few of us wish our ‘boat anchors’ shot as well as his ‘boat anchors’ do.





.

It comes and it goes Dean, somedays the bug other days the windshield :rotf:

[Ian Civco]

I will wade in. First I like boat anchors, I call them shooters. All my doubles are used for hunting. Mostly salt water duck hunting which is not a good place for a high condition or high grade gun IMO. Where can I find a modern double of the same quality as a mechanically correct Trojan or Sterlingworth for the same price? Some pretty nice people here shoot boat anchors, I don't really care what my friends shoot and if they are my friends they don't care what I shoot either. My guns are not my investments, they are my toys, and over the years it's been win some, lose some. Maybe markets have changed and put more in the lose some column, so what, I had years and years of enjoyment with those for the difference. I have a 12ga Trojan I like to shoot sporting clays with, even more so than my GHE Skeet. Truth be told my friends don't look at my gun, good or bad they only seem look at my score at the end of day. Some days they are quiet other days they laugh. Try to have some fun with your boat anchors.

Right you are! I own a few Fox Sterlingworths and a few A Grades. Sterlingworths can still be had for around $500. Where else can you find such a BARGAIN, fine workmanship so cheaply? I even scored a really nice 16 gauge Sterlingworth for $800 a few years ago. And 12 gauge Parker Trojans aren't much more!

[Frank Cronin]

Some of us have shot with Pete and a few of us wish our ‘boat anchors’ shot as well as his ‘boat anchors’ do.

.

As long as you beat Pete and Billy, it was a good day! :rotf: In all seriousness, shooting with the NH Boys is a lot of fun. Looking forward to when we all can shoot some sporting clays when this "social distancing" comes to a close so I can shoot my newly acquired "boat anchor" 30" twenty gauge Lefever with XF chokes.... :shock:

[Dean Romig]

Dang! We could have done a small-bore shoot but I just sold my XXF 20 gauge Sterly.





.

[Shane Jennings]

I will wade in. First I like boat anchors, I call them shooters. All my doubles are used for hunting. Mostly salt water duck hunting which is not a good place for a high condition or high grade gun IMO. Where can I find a modern double of the same quality as a mechanically correct Trojan or Sterlingworth for the same price? Some pretty nice people here shoot boat anchors, I don't really care what my friends shoot and if they are my friends they don't care what I shoot either. My guns are not my investments, they are my toys, and over the years it's been win some, lose some. Maybe markets have changed and put more in the lose some column, so what, I had years and years of enjoyment with those for the difference. I have a 12ga Trojan I like to shoot sporting clays with, even more so than my GHE Skeet. Truth be told my friends don't look at my gun, good or bad they only seem look at my score at the end of day. Some days they are quiet other days they laugh. Try to have some fun with your boat anchors.

Do you shoot steel shot in the old guns? I've considered buying one for duck hunting, but I was concerned about the barrels holding up to modern waterfowl loads.

[Pete Lester]

Do you shoot steel shot in the old guns? I've considered buying one for duck hunting, but I was concerned about the barrels holding up to modern waterfowl loads.

I would never use steel in a Parker or any classic double gun, you are asking for trouble. I don't like the commercial loadings of bismuth for their price and their loadings. I reload my own bismuth to what are period correct shot weights, velocity and pressure. I think that is the only way to go with old doubles when it comes to ducks and geese.

[charlie cleveland]

get one of the parker repos they are made to shoot steel shot in the 12 ga water fowl guns...i have a field grade lc smith long range gun that i found a secound set of barrels that are modified choke that i have shot steel shot in it with no problems so far...but as pete said best to leave steel shot for guns made for it...

[Shane Jennings]

I would never use steel in a Parker or any classic double gun, you are asking for trouble. I don't like the commercial loadings of bismuth for their price and their loadings. I reload my own bismuth to what are period correct shot weights, velocity and pressure. I think that is the only way to go with old doubles when it comes to ducks and geese.

That's what I was thinking. I don't reload for 12ga anymore (for clays or upland birds), as factory ammo is as cheap or cheaper than reloading these days. But I would reload for waterfowl, if I had an old gun that required it. I reload for all my rifles. I enjoy it. Kinda like tying flies. An old field grade double would be fun to hunt with.

[Victor Wasylyna]

I've considered buying one for duck hunting

Shane:

There is something special about hunting waterfowl with a Parker 10 gauge. Get one and read up on loading the “short ten” in our reloading subforum. Once you do, those steel loads in your arsenal will sit and collect dust.

-Victor

[William Woods]

Ian,

I am a fairly recent member, compared to guys like Dean and Edgar, to mention two. I am not an affluent individual, and cannot afford most of the mid level Parkers. I remember John Allen having two 16 GA. Parkers at a gun show, and wish now I had bought both of them. At the time I might have been able to scrounge up enough cash for one. I am one that is not as young as I used to be. I have always liked the D grade Parkers as being attractive enough, but not so collectible that they cannot be hunted with. In my neck of the woods, I have seen three DH(E)'s come to auction. The first was a 12 with short barrels that I was the first loser on. The second I bought, not knowing all the ill's it suffered, and because I could afford the price (initially). The third was my preferred 16 GA, but it had tighter chokes than I wanted and longer barrels. It sold for close to 10K, then was listed on one of the gun sites for 10K more than the telephone bidder bought it for. Turned out it was one of seven made in that configuration. I really didn't want a 12 GA DHE, but it was what I could afford that came up for auction locally. I have spoken to a prominent member here about restoration of that Parker, and everyone tells me not to do it because the restoration cost is way more than the gun is worth. I have been told that a 12 GA #2 frame Parker with 30" barrels is a very common gun, but I have yet to see many parts I need advertised for this gun. It is MY DHE, the only one I have, and may be the only one I will ever have. I would prefer a 16 DHE, 26" barrels, or a two barrel set, with one set at IM and MOD. But I haven't found one period, much less one that I could afford. So my suggestion is to buy what you want and be happy with it.

[Joseph Sheerin]

I buy guns that I happen to like, and are at price I think is fair. I am not into collecting guns I don't plan to shoot, so have not purchased any "graded" guns..... Yet. :-)

I have a small collection of field grade guns, that includes more than one "boat anchor". I am a big guy, 6'1" and 240 finely sculpted pounds.. hahaha Beer does a nice job of scuplting a mans body. So, I like 12ga double guns with 30"+ barrels. I enjoy shooting them, etc. I do own some fast and light guns, 20ga O/U w 26" barrels, AH Fox 16ga that weighs in less than 6lbs, and love shooting those too.

As Forrest Gump would say, life is like a box of chocolates, and so are shotguns. Having a nice variety to shoot is what makes them so fun.

As for the other stuff going on in this thread, I am very new to this forum, but have been a very long time member on some others.... This forum is not unlike any other one I have been on. You have guys who have got to know each other, probably via in person visits, etc... Then, new guys come along and feel they are not part of the "cligue", which is a term I hate.... But in reality, they have just not been around long enough, to build that bond... That's ok, that's how things work. I wouldn't expect to be taken in like a brother 2 weeeks after signing up, that takes time, and getting to know people. No sense in worrying about it.

In my short time here, I have already observed a wealth of information given freely by the members, some of it, I don't necessarily agree with, but recognize that not every one is ever going to agree. It seems the days of being able to recognize that you don't agree on something, but can still be friendly has past, and that's a shame.

Anyway, love my boat anchors, and maybe one day I'll add a nicely engraved with fine lumber boat anchor to my collection of plain jane boat anchors.... :D

[Joseph Sheerin]

BTW.... You want to get eaten alive on a gun forum go visit the American Long Rifles forum, and post up pics of a Southern Mountain(Mongrel) rifle with a siler lock on it..... :D I made that mistake several years ago, and still have burn marks. But, the rifle was my rifle, made by me, and I used a lock I liked, although not an "English" lock which would have been true to a Southern Mountain rifle.... Rifle is still very dear to me, and shoots great, and will be handed down to one of my sons one day.

Anyway, y'all have a great day.....

[Dean Romig]

As for the other stuff going on in this thread, I am very new to this forum, but have been a very long time member on some others.... This forum is not unlike any other one I have been on. You have guys who have got to know each other, probably via in person visits, etc... Then, new guys come along and feel they are not part of the "cligue", which is a term I hate.... But in reality, they have just not been around long enough, to build that bond... That's ok, that's how things work. I wouldn't expect to be taken in like a brother 2 weeeks after signing up, that takes time, and getting to know people. No sense in worrying about it.


Joseph, everybody is welcome here. Our goal is to keep everything as friendly as possible and always in a civil manner.

You pretty much nailed it - that a lot of us have met at shoots and auctions and PGCA Annual Meetings and the friendships just grow and grow from there. I was a newcomer once and even though I didn't know a lot about Parkers, or any guns for that matter, I was welcomed by the long-time members and it has been a wonderful learning experience.

Like I said, everybody is welcome here. We all share a common interest and that's what bonds us in friendship. You'll strike up a lot of friendships here if you stick around... and Please Do! You are welcome here!





.

[edgarspencer]

the rifle was my rifle, made by me, and I used a lock I liked

Joe, Please post a picture. I am a closet front stuffer lover, but never had the courage to try flint.

[Joseph Sheerin]

Joe, Please post a picture. I am a closet front stuffer lover, but never had the courage to try flint.

Ok, just don't slam it for not being 100% what would have been a Southern Mountain Rifle. I built a rifle based on that pattern, that I liked... :D

I call it my Southern Mongrel rifle... :D

[edgarspencer]

Don't you just hate rivet counters? ( a term my son used when showing his restored 1943 Willys)

Handsome gun and it looks like you knew what you wanted. First rate quality. What caliber? I would like to find a small bore (36 caliber) Flintlock. I have a Thompson Hawken with .36 and .50 barrels (which I think were made by Green Mountain)

[Dean Romig]

A beautiful rifle! What’s not to like about that?





.

[Joseph Sheerin]

If you look closely.... The Lock is a siler lock, wich has that pointed end to it. This was common on German Locks.

"True" Southern Mountain rifles, would have used a rounded, English style lock, Ketland, etc.

I was not "patterning" my rifle from a "known" Southern Mountain rifle. Was just wanting a good quality Long Rifle that I liked, so I ordered things I had seen and liked.

It's a 45 cal, This was sort of the build info.... I did have help from a very good friend, who is very experienced with Long Rifles.... A lot of the metal work was done by him, 1. because he knew how to do it, 2. because he had the right tools.

DeHass 45 caliber 42" barrel, Large Siler lock by Jim Chambers, and extra curly maple stock from Pecatonica River. Will be stained with aquafortis, and finished with a hand rubbed tru-oil finish. All metal parts will be browned using Laurel Mountains browning re-agent.

BTW, after I took those pics, I toned down the ramrod, it was still bare hickory when I took those pics.

What's funny is if you look at Track of the Wolfs Southern Mountain rifle build, it has a siler lock as well. I sort of used this as pattern for my riflle. I liked it, so that is sorta what I built.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/605/1/SOUTHERN-MOUNTIAN-LONGRIFLE-FLINT-PARTS-LIST

[Joseph Sheerin]

A beautiful rifle! What’s not to like about that?





.

I love it, and it will make a nice heirloom for my son..... :bigbye:

[Daniel Carter]

In 1974 a gun shop had a curly maple blank and a .45 barrel by a renown maker, he had given 10.00 in trade for them so i gave him 10.00 and 2 years later i had a percussion rifle made to my idea of what i wanted. It has sights from a german pellet rifle the butt(steel)from a winchester .22 rifle a Thompson center patch box and the rest came from Dixie.
The gun shop owner offered me 1500.00 for it saying he had many guns made in Canton Mass. but was sure that was going to be the last one
The early makers used what they had and made it to suit themselves just as you and i did

Beautiful job and i wish you many years of enjoyment from it.

[Garry L Gordon]

It seems the days of being able to recognize that you don't agree on something, but can still be friendly has past, and that's a shame.
:D

Those days are still alive and well in some of us, but you won't see it on the news; it doesn't make good copy.

Joseph, don't think that higher grade guns don't get shot. There are many here that are "shooter-collectors."

[Joseph Sheerin]

Those days are still alive and well in some of us, but you won't see it on the news; it doesn't make good copy.

Joseph, don't think that higher grade guns don't get shot. There are many here that are "shooter-collectors."

Oh, I know they get shot... It's just my excuse for not spending the money on one. :D

I'll be picking up a graded Fox or Parker at some point, maybe some of each... Just have not run across the right gun, for the right price yet. And, yes it will get hunted, and it will get shot a lot. :-)

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Well I just finished my mowing and came in the house for a drink of cold spring water, and turned on the old computer and started reading this blog about boat anchors, interesting to say the least! I got to thinking about my last few purchases going back two years, 3 twenty gauges, 1 -16gauge, 1 ten gauge, 4-12gauges or boat anchors as they are called, but they hold a place of high regard in my gun cabinet! and by the way all were hammer guns but one special 12, Gary

[Dean Romig]

Do tell... :whistle:






.

[Russell E. Cleary]

I have seen it happen in other fields of collecting. The sophisticated, advanced collectors reach a level of “connoisseurship” such that only the most rarified examples gratify.

The unseemly corollary to this is that, in off-hand moments, lesser, run-of-mine pieces are occasionally assigned dismissive or disparaging epithets by those same collectors.

In contrast there was that time I arrived at my club’s trap field bearing a 12-gauge; 2-framed, 30-inch-barelled Trojan, all amid a sea of repeaters; and the comparatively unjaded range officer essentially said, “make way for that special gun”.

[allen newell]

I have a 12 ga boat anchor to post but having difficulty bringing the picture up

[allen newell]

still no pic

[charlie cleveland]

in my last year of buying guns has been slim...I bought that 43 1/2 inch barrel richland 10 ga turned into a 12 ga 3 1/2 inch magnum...a savage model 219 single shot in 22 hornet...and will be getting a stevens 22 crackshot in a few days....for some reason as of late the odd ball single shot 22 s have caught my eyes and heart... and to be honest you can buy several of these little rifles to what a good parker will cost....charlie

[Dean Romig]

Allen Newell sent me these pictures of a Very pretty Parker Grade-0 “Boat Anchor” with beautiful “feather crotch” American black walnut.


.

[Garry L Gordon]

Allen Newall sent me these pictures of a Very pretty Parker Grade-0 “Boat Anchor.”


.

Yikes! His boat must be a yacht.:bowdown:

[Rick Riddell]

VH with wood like that, what a treat!

[Jeff Christie]

Charlie- you will have a LOT of fun with the M219 22 Hornet! They are fun little rifles and most shoot very well.

[allen newell]

My boat anchor above is a 12 ga VHE that came out of the estate of my best friend's uncle. It was his wife's gun and the original stock has been significantly cut down so I shipped it out to Brad Bachelder for re-stocking with a blank I bought from Cecil Fredi. Brad did the case colors as well and rust blued the barrels. I don't shoot it that often now as I prefer my 20 ga sxs's but when I do take it out, I get many comments on the wood. I will be eternally thankful that Brad did the restoration on this nice VHE. It's a testament to the quality of work that Brad was known for. RIP Brad and thank you.

[Garry L Gordon]

I echo your comments about Brad. I remember once asking him if Parkers were really better than X,Y, or Z American makers' guns. I received one of the most expert and cogent responses I've every heard or read. He sold me.

[allen newell]

Brad was always the perfect gentleman. Never too busy to answer my questions..He was the best.

[todd allen]

I echo your comments about Brad. I remember once asking him if Parkers were really better than X,Y, or Z American makers' guns. I received one of the most expert and cogent responses I've every heard or read. He sold me.

I would love to hear what he said. Could you paraphrase?

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

What is the general opinion regarding 12 gauge hammerguns? Are they also considered "Boat Anchors"?

[Dean Romig]

I have a 12 gauge Grade 4 hammer gun on the 1-frame with 30” Bernard barrels that is a far cry from a boat anchor. :rolleyes:





.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Agreed Dean...but that grade, hammer or hammerless, would be sought after in any gauge. I was referring to the more common grade O's and 1's. So, let's assume equal condition and specs...which gun would be more likely to attract a buyer.

[John Allen]

You have to factor in grade and condition into this discussion.A true mint gun of any gauge will bring top dollar now.The mid level condition guns that people used to buy to hunt with are very hard to sell now.I would bet that most of us in this association started our gun collecting by buying a used Parker to hunt with.Todays hunters are buying synthetic stocked guns to use.The only way they are introduced to good doubles is by running into one of us at a shoot or show.The middle level guns that held up the price structure are declining and therefor we get the "boat anchor"story from dealers who want to turn inventory.

[Dean Romig]

Agreed Dean...but that grade, hammer or hammerless, would be sought after in any gauge. I was referring to the more common grade O's and 1's. So, let's assume equal condition and specs...which gun would be more likely to attract a buyer.



What kind of buyer?





.

[Garry L Gordon]

I would love to hear what he said. Could you paraphrase?

Hi, Todd,

I certainly don't have the technical knowledge or command of nomenclature that Brad had, so any detailed recounting from me would be inadequate, but he spoke about the fit and finish of Parker guns, especially referencing their internal parts. I certainly came away from that conversation with an enhanced sense of the quality of the firm's offerings. I've always been fascinated by the barrel striking process, and what initiated the conversation with Brad that I referenced was our examination of a GH that I had recently acquired that weighed in at 7 lbs. The gun is totally original, and the letter confirms the weight. The barrel striker took off quite a bit of weight from the barrels, but still they were finely balanced and had plenty of wall thickness where it was needed. To think that guns that finely crafted were "production" guns still astounds me. Brad really helped me understand just how well Parker shotguns were made. I'm very grateful for all the time he took with me.

[todd allen]

BTW, If anyone has an unwanted boat anchor see my post in the "Want to Buy" Forum.

[allen newell]

Todd, I am considering selling my boat anchor VHE 12 ga w/28 inch barrels and fully restored by Brad Bachelder. It's pics are posted in this thread. If you are interested PM me and we can talk. I did see your wtb post. It's not a DHE tho but the wood on it is better or as good as you might find on a nice DHE.

[todd allen]

Todd, I am considering selling my boat anchor VHE 12 ga w/28 inch barrels and fully restored by Brad Bachelder. It's pics are posted in this thread. If you are interested PM me and we can talk. I did see your wtb post. It's not a DHE tho but the wood on it is better or as good as you might find on a nice DHE.

Hi Allen, I appreciate the response. Your gun is beautiful, and should make anybody proud to own it.
In this case, my friend is looking for engraving, as well as nice wood. The D level of engraving is the level he is looking for, but would consider looking at a higher grade.
This will be a bucket list gun for him. BTW, he has a V grade with very high grade wood. Probably about as good as you'll ever see on a V, in fact. But this gun doesn't have ejectors.
I wouldn't normally get this involved in someone else's gun business, but this is a lifelong friend, and hunting partner. I would donate a kidney to him if he needed it.
Sorry all, for taking this thread so far off topic.

[allen newell]

Perfectly fine Todd

[Dave Noreen]

Allen Newell sent me these pictures of a Very pretty Parker Grade-0 “Boat Anchor” with beautiful “feather crotch” American black walnut.


.

That must be a Remington restock, they normally look like this --

84848

84849

[Dean Romig]

Right Dave, they normally do.

Allen explained that he bought the blank and sent it all off to Bachelder.





.

[allen newell]

Dean, the 2 pictures above are not of the vhe i sent pics to you the other day.

[Dean Romig]

No Allen, these are yours...


.

[allen newell]

Yes, Dean you are correct. I was referring to the 2 pics that Dave Noreen posted. My error as i thought it was your post. Sucks getting old.
Regarding the blank used on my restocking, i had cecil fredi pick out 6 blanks and send me pics of them. Then i sent the pics to the 4 gents i shoot with most regularly and had them pick out the best one. I should note that the differences among the 6 blanks was very discreet but we all picked the same blank and that is what i bought and shipped to Brad. Even Brad commented favorably on the blank we used.

[Craig Larter]

A couple of my 12 gauge "Boat Anchors"-----they used be called screamers :crying:

[allen newell]

They scream at me Craig

[Garry L Gordon]

Sounds more like sweet music to my ears...