10 GA, 40" Barrels - gone but not forgotten

[Derek Lathrop]

I'm on the hunt for a needle in a haystack in the form of an old Parker. One that my great grandfather supposedly special ordered back around 1900 and one my grandfather lost after putting a lien on it in the early 1980's. It is a hammerless 10 Ga with 40" barrels and is a monster of a gun. One that was dear to my great-grandfather and to my father but apparently that sentiment skipped a generation.

I've got a number of photos detailing the gun and the matching parts with serial number #86011 as well as photos of my father as a teen shouldering it (see attached for a sample). I have documents back and forth between a number of people as my grandfather tried to verify its authenticity, detailing the lien and was able to track it to a grandson of the elderly gentleman who had acquired it when the lien was forfeited. He had it in his collection which he sold via magazine ad to someone in either "Texas or Wyoming several years ago". That's where my information dries up, the elderly gentleman named Gene, who lived in Northern MI, was battling dementia and kept no record of the sale of his collection (much to his son & grandson's dismay as it sounds like he gave it away).

More or less, I am looking to find out if this is a gun on the market out there somewhere, or one that could potentially be reacquired at some time. it would be my dream to be able to surprise my father with the gun if by some miracle I could track it down and buy it back.

I have to apologize for my lack of expertise on finish and model information. It's my understanding that these old hammerless 10's are rarely seen with 40" barrels, so if you think you may have seen one or could direct me to someone who might have more information that would be much appreciated.

Lastly, if this is the wrong place for this post please let me know and I will redirect my inquiry.

Thanks to all for your time.

D

[James Shumaker]

Based on the proportions of my own 10 ga (rcvr/foreend to barrel) I put this at a 32 inch barrel. Can't make out the tape measure readings.

[Derek Lathrop]

James, Thanks for taking the time to look at my post! It is not my intention to contradict your comment however, the tape does in fact read 40”. It may not translate well in the sized down image attached but it is clear in the original. I believe the visual scale may be skewed given the perspective that the photo is taken at. Multiple documents that I have regarding the gun also detail it as having barrels that measure between 40-41”.

[Brian Dudley]

First off, the full serial would be helpful for us to know so that maybe those who track numbers in more detail may be able to check their records.

Some information on 40" parker barrels. 40" was the longest barrel length that Parker offered. And the few that I have seen actually measured 40.5". so that may be where you're conflicting information of 40" and 41" comes from. Some rounded up and some rounded down.
And the few 40" guns that I have seen had unmated ribs as I suspect that the matting machine was not able to matte up to 40" length.

I would bet the gun was built on a 6 frame.

Best of luck on your endeavor.

[Brian Dudley]

The book only lists 12 serial numbers starting in 860xx. So it must be one of the 88 missing numbers that are not in the book.

[Dean Romig]

Unfortunately there are scant few guns in the 860XX range shown in the Serialization book because that gun falls into the range of serial numbers within which the person recording them for these files only included Grade 3 and higher. But there may be sufficient data available upon which to base a research letter.





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[Randy G Roberts]

Derek check your PM's please.

[Randy G Roberts]

Derek there are surviving records on the subject gun so you might consider joining the PGCA and ordering a letter. Most likely this will not help to locate the gun but it sounds like the letter may be of interest to you.

[Bill Murphy]

Wow, what a great mystery.

[Bill Murphy]

I can't wait to see that letter.

[James Shumaker]

Derek, it's hard to argue against the tape but let me just bring up another factor. In the photo with the young man pointing the gun, there appears to be a reflection off of the forend tip of what could be a beavertail forend and the lad's fingers seem to be gripping the forend half way up the barrel diameter. Looks to me like there are two different guns in the photos. Take a closer look at that tape.

[Milton C Starr]

Looks like the tape measure says 38" above the breech and its backwards maybe 2" from the muzzle so 40" could be right , its kind of hard to read but I see 41" above the middle of the top lever . If the tape had started at the muzzle it appears it would read 40" .

I wonder what a 40" 10 ga Parkers would fetch ? A 36" barreled hammerless Parker 10 ga sold near here a few years back for 15k . If its on a #6 frame I wonder if it would go for about what the long barreled 8 gauges do . I seen a 38" Parker #6 frame 8 ga sell for 19k a few years back .

[Brian Dudley]

Derek, it's hard to argue against the tape but let me just bring up another factor. In the photo with the young man pointing the gun, there appears to be a reflection off of the forend tip of what could be a beavertail forend and the lad's fingers seem to be gripping the forend half way up the barrel diameter. Looks to me like there are two different guns in the photos. Take a closer look at that tape.



The photo shows 40” on the tape. It is the angle of the photo that is, for some reason, playing tricks on people.
And the gun in the photo being shouldered by the young man has a splinter forend.

[Randy G Roberts]

The photo shows 40” on the tape. It is the angle of the photo that is, for some reason, playing tricks on people.
And the gun in the photo being shouldered by the young man has a splinter forend.

Exactly, if you focus on the right side of the breach only it appears that the 40 inch mark on the tape is dead nuts on it. Interestingly enough if you look at the muzzle end at that angle it appears like the tape is 2" back toward the breech end but it is not. All due to the angle.

[Derek Lathrop]

Thanks for all of the responses everyone, honestly I didn't anticipate many people would pay much attention to this.

As far as the length goes, I am at the mercy of the information that I have. The photo seems to me to clearly show a 40" measurement, but I will let anyone make their own assessment and not argue on something that I can't personally measure.

Let's assume for a moment that the barrels are 40" as detailed in my "case file". The story is much more convoluted than what the original post even begins to explain. Back in 1980 Gene (the gentleman that took the gun and lent my grandfather $2000) began to have some suspicions that the gun was not worth the money that he ponied up and my grandfather went on a mission trying to get verification on value as well as tried to find a buyer for the gun as he didn't have the money to repay the debt. He contacted a handful of serious collectors from the late 70's and early 80's as well as several publishers of outdoor literature. I have several letters from Herschel Chadick stating that he believes the gun to be a fake and several other letters claiming it's the real deal. I even have some notes referencing one Larry Del Greco (?) who claimed to have worked on the gun in New York, citing that he remembered having to extend bluing tubes to accommodate the barrels. You should see the manila folder full of names, slides, addresses and phone numbers as well as letters and magazine clippings... it would make a cold case detective sweat.

I have reason to believe from the original investigation conducted by my grandfather that the gun is in fact legitimate, however it may have had a new stock in the late 1920s. This is based on a note written on a loose piece of paper, with no further explanation. It's listed as having a dog head butt plate with two birds engraved on the receiver.

That being said, if it is the real deal and it is worth a small fortune my salary as is will not support a 10k reuniting.

I have attached another photo that was in the pile of information to show the serial number as it is stamped on (forgive me I'm at a loss) the receiver? I've also attached another photo of the lad (my father) shouldering the gun at a different angle. I understand the end of the barrel seems to go off of the photo but I believe it ends right at the edge of the frame.

Thanks again everyone!!

D

[Chuck Bishop]

I can tell you that it's a GH, 10ga. with 40" Damascus barrels and a pistol grip. I can't tell by the pictures if the stock is original. What was your grandfather's last name and where did he live. I know we all wish you good luck in finding that gun. The fact that there aren't many GH's out there with 40" barrels may help.

[charlie cleveland]

hope you solve this mystery and be able to afford the gun if you find it...charlie

[Derek Lathrop]

I can tell you that it's a GH, 10ga. with 40" Damascus barrels and a pistol grip. I can't tell by the pictures if the stock is original. What was your grandfather's last name and where did he live. I know we all wish you good luck in finding that gun. The fact that there aren't many GH's out there with 40" barrels may help.

Thanks for reaching out Chuck, my grandfather and I share the same last name: Lathrop and he was most likely in the Detroit, Mi area. Although he had been in and out of the East Coast in earlier years.

[wayne goerres]

It looks to me that the gun is not wearing the original but stock. It is a little rough and that is probable a good thing because it is not going to be in that 10,000 range. Not even close.

[CraigThompson]

A 36" barreled hammerless Parker 10 ga sold near here a few years back for 15k .

A PH 10 gauge 36" sold in Florida in the last two weeks via internet auction for 18 or 19 hundred plus a few small fees . Gun appeared to have been refinished . Well as I can remember the gun was made around 1914 if my memory serves . I suppose by the time the winner got that gun with shipping they had about $2300 in it .

[Milton C Starr]

A PH 10 gauge 36" sold in Florida in the last two weeks via internet auction for 18 or 19 hundred plus a few small fees . Gun appeared to have been refinished . Well as I can remember the gun was made around 1914 if my memory serves . I suppose by the time the winner got that gun with shipping they had about $2300 in it .

Im not sure what grade this 10 ga 36" was .
$2300 seems pretty good considering what they usually list for from what ive seen for 32" ones .

[CraigThompson]

It looks to me that the gun is not wearing the original but stock. It is a little rough and that is probable a good thing because it is not going to be in that 10,000 range. Not even close.

I can't agree with that , although you might be correct .

Personally I feel "today" if the 40" gun were in pristine condition etc it might bring $7500 .

And from looking at the pictures blown up and any other way I'd say the condition if anywhere near as decent now as it was then the gun would most likely top out at $3500-4000 in todays market MAYBE .

Not trying to beat up the value etc but I do not think it will bring what some folks would assume .

And again that's my opinion , may not be correct but that's what I think .

[CraigThompson]

Im not sure what grade this 10 ga 36" was .
$2300 seems pretty good considering what they usually list for from what ive seen for 32" ones .

Read the post again I tell you what grade it was !

List and actual sale price don't go hand in hand .

I've got a 34" EH in very nice shape that I got for less than $2300 .

[Milton C Starr]

Read the post again I tell you what grade it was !

List and actual sale price don't go hand in hand .

I've got a 34" EH in very nice shape that I got for less than $2300 .

Well it was listed as 15k then it was marked as sold .
I was talking about the one that sold here not the PH you mentioned .

[CraigThompson]

Hmmmmmmm

[Bill Murphy]

My 40" Davenport 10 gauge that I recently acquired cost me $600. I am very happy with it but it would be nice if it were a Parker.

[Jerry Harlow]

People often say I had one of those and wish I had kept it, it would be worth a fortune, whether an old car or a gun. I always reply, well buy one today and many years down the road you can say I'm glad I kept it.

So here is what the $2000 in 1980 is worth today. If you would have redeemed it in 1980 for $2000, why not do it today?

U.S. Inflation Rate, $2,000 from 1980 to 2020

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, today's prices in 2020 are 213.93% higher than average prices since 1980. The U.S. dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 2.90% per year during this period, meaning the real value of a dollar decreased.

In other words, $2,000 in 1980 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $6,278.59 in 2020, a difference of $4,278.59 over 40 years.

The 1980 inflation rate was 13.50%. The current inflation rate (2019 to 2020) is now 2.33%1.

[charlie cleveland]

the inflation rate must be well below 0 because paper money aint worth anything in a good while....charlie

[Dean Romig]

the inflation rate must be well below 0 because paper money aint worth anything in a good while....charlie


Maybe they shoulda made it outta gold...





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[Derek Lathrop]

Back in 2020 I did hear some definitive words on the subject gun, but failed to follow up on the forum.

My search ended at John Puglisi. I found out that he himself had been a previous owner/collector of the gun and had since sold it.

We were able to get connected for a phone conversation after which he reached out to the owner (whose identity John kept confidential) and told him about my search. A follow up conversation between John and I revealed the owner did not seem interested in my story much at all. Additionally he didn't give John much to go on, but Puglisi's best guess as to what the owner would want for it --- $20,000.

I told him I would rather not waste his or the owner's time by requesting an audience and that's where it all ended.

Nonetheless I wanted to say thank you to anyone who put thought into this project and to put a cap on it.

It was an enjoyable search and fun to find out that it was in fact worth something. My grandfather would have been proud to know, then again maybe it would have eaten him up!

[Bill Murphy]

I didn't read this entire thread, so I don't know if my comment will be related. Shenandoah Guns in Berryville, VA had a GH 16 gauge with 40" barrels several decades ago. I don't know what happened to that gun, but I handled it. It didn't seem to be on a large frame, but the barrels were Vulcan Steel as I recall, not Damascus or Parker Special Steel. I don't know whether TPS mentions this gun.

[CraigThompson]

I didn't read this entire thread, so I don't know if my comment will be related. Shenandoah Guns in Berryville, VA had a GH 16 gauge with 40" barrels several decades ago. I don't know what happened to that gun, but I handled it. It didn't seem to be on a large frame, but the barrels were Vulcan Steel as I recall, not Damascus or Parker Special Steel. I don't know whether TPS mentions this gun.

If my assumption is correct my dad and Jerry Amos went to Clark Bros to look at a Parker 16 40” once upon a time . Dads been retired for 32 years so it was before then . And if it’s the one John Clark had it went to Herschel Chadick .

[Dean Romig]

I didn't read this entire thread, so I don't know if my comment will be related. Shenandoah Guns in Berryville, VA had a GH 16 gauge with 40" barrels several decades ago. I don't know what happened to that gun, but I handled it. It didn't seem to be on a large frame, but the barrels were Vulcan Steel as I recall, not Damascus or Parker Special Steel. I don't know whether TPS mentions this gun.



I believe Gary C. owned it for a number of years but I thought it had Damascus barrels...





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[Bill Murphy]

It most certainly was a fluid steel gun. The barrels were not Parker Special Steel which was proper for a G grade. However, it was not so unusual for such a rare gun to be factory barreled or rebarreled with a different type of steel.